Contractor V self build

mayo pixiebell

Hi, just a quick question. Totally clueless.

If you get a contractor, at what stage do they finish? Do they control everything...as in, they give you a time frame and they organise everything to get it done with in that timeframe?

Has anyone got any pros or cons for contractor or which would you choose?

sydthebeat

mayo pixiebell wrote: »

Hi, just a quick question. Totally clueless.

If you get a contractor, at what stage do they finish? Do they control everything...as in, they give you a time frame and they organise everything to get it done with in that timeframe?

Has anyone got any pros or cons for contractor or which would you choose?

i assume you mean "direct labour v contractor".... you can have a self build but have it done by a contractor.

youd only "choose" a direct labour build if you are able to do the work of the contractor, as the way you make the savings is by earning them doing the work.

mayo pixiebell

Thanks, I’ll fix that now. All along I was thinking direct labour but I’m tending to go towards a contractor as it might be quicker and sped up any delays?

JoeA3

With a contractor, you will agree a "fixed price contract" which will (or at least should) indicate a ballpark finish date.

You'll typically finish the house much faster this way (~10-12 months) and the total eventual cost will be largely known from the outset (barring any additions to spec you make along the way, e.g. better windows, better kitchen, etc), unless you run into some huge unforeseen cost somewhere.

Along the way, the contractor will be in touch with you as he needs you (probably quite frequently), especially when it gets to finishes. E.g. He'll be asking you to go out and pick your windows, get your kitchen spec'd, get your sanitary ware picked, etc.

A contractor will cost you a big premium over and above DIY... but... everything I've been told / read would suggest you do not consider the direct labour approach unless you really really know what you are doing and/or you have responsibilities elsewhere (i.e. a full time job), because it will be a full time job managing it yourself. And you're more likely to make (expensive) mistakes than an experienced contractor.

Metric Tensor

I agree with everything Joe says except the following bit:

JoeA3 wrote: »

A contractor will cost you a big premium over and above DIY...

Firstly, you will pay 23% VAT on all materials if you go direct labour. You will pay 13.5% if you have a contractor.

Then all the other points about mistakes, losing the run of costs, delays, etc will significantly increase the direct labour spend.

Could a contractor turn up at your place of work and do your job tomorrow morning? What makes you think you could do a contractor's job?

Direct labour is for people who already have construction experience or are availing of mate's rates or doing the work themselves. Beyond that it's a fallacy.

Le shovelle

Would have to agree with the above. I've two friends who are currently doing a self build. They got a few quotes from builders in the area and thought they could do it cheaper themselves.
Both aren't finished and are over the figures quoted by the contractors.

Unless you have experience in construction I would advise using a local reputable contractor.

If you do decide to go the contractor route, employ the services of your architect to put it out to tender for you.
This will ensure that the builders are all pricing the same thing and leaves it very clear to both parties what work will be undertaken.
Hope this helps

JoeA3

Metric Tensor wrote: »

I agree with everything Joe says except the following bit:



Firstly, you will pay 23% VAT on all materials if you go direct labour. You will pay 13.5% if you have a contractor.

Then all the other points about mistakes, losing the run of costs, delays, etc will significantly increase the direct labour spend.

Could a contractor turn up at your place of work and do your job tomorrow morning? What makes you think you could do a contractor's job?

Direct labour is for people who already have construction experience or are availing of mate's rates or doing the work themselves. Beyond that it's a fallacy.

Yeah I completely agree with you. I wasn’t suggesting for a second that the premium charged is not worth it.
While a contractor charges a premium, I feel that if I personally went Direct Labour, I’d spend any perceived saving on inevitable mistakes! I have no building knowledge, I don’t really know any lads that well in the trades. I am going the contractor route myself and already I’m a bit stressed out just picking the windows! I can’t imagine what I’d be like if I was trying to make decisions on it daily or coordinate the various trades. I’d be in an early grave.

dubrov

Metric Tensor wrote:

Firstly, you will pay 23% VAT on all materials if you go direct labour. You will pay 13.5% if you have a contractor.

Not really true. E.g If you contact an electrician and buy the parts through them, you pay 13.5% VAT. There really isn't any VAT difference unless you actually do the work yourself.

A main contractor will save you time and stress but you will pay a premium for this. This premium will vary depending on what oat of the country you are in.

A contractor will be experienced (in theory anyway) so should make less mistakes resulting in a better product delivered more quickly. They will generally not spend much time shopping around and need to be paid as well so will cost more.

It all depends how much you value your time and also how much control you want of the project

mayo pixiebell

Thank you everyone for taking the time to reply. I really appreciate all your replies and hopefully if my budget can stretch I’ll go down the contractor route. Thanks again

Metric Tensor

dubrov wrote: »

Not really true. E.g If you contact an electrician and buy the parts through them, you pay 13.5% VAT. There really isn't any VAT difference unless you actually do the work yourself.

True for an electrician - not as likely in my experience for a blocklayer for example.

dubrov

Depends on if it meets the 2/3rds rule

A contractor needs to meet the same rule to charge 13.5%

P2C

In my opinion do your research and get a very good spec down on paper or the best you can afford. The devil is in the detail. The more detail you have from foundation to finishes the less chance of problems with a contractor or if you sub contract. No matter if your direct or contracting have someone independent check the workmanship and the materials every step of the way. I went self build without any construction experience but I can project manage and don’t mind pricing. I had a architect tech help define the spec and got a qs to price every aspect of the job so I had an idea when dealing with sub contractors. I was also able to hire people who came recommended. There are plenty of horror stories so do your due diligence on your contractor or subs.

Count Mondego

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Could a contractor turn up at your place of work and do your job tomorrow morning? What makes you think you could do a contractor's job?

Direct labour is for people who already have construction experience or are availing of mate's rates or doing the work themselves. Beyond that it's a fallacy.

That's a load of BS in fairness. Building a house is not rocket science and once you have a good engineer and decent sub contractors there should be no problems. I've just done this without any previous experience and made no expensive mistakes, but saved myself the cost of a builder's profit. The Engineer cost 6k and between him, myself and the trades men, any issues were worked out. I think the main benefit is that I've seen every single thing that the tradesmen have done, since the foundation went down until the light bulbs went in. I'd say there's plenty of shortcuts hidden behind paint and plaster when a contractor hands over the keys.

Main advise is to price everything three or four times, and compare like with like. Also, more often than not the cheapest quote is not the best option either.

Metric Tensor

Count Mondego wrote: »

saved myself the cost of a builder's profit.

What hourly rate have you put your own time in at in that calculation?

Also - would be interested to know what VAT rate did you pay on the concrete, the blocks and the timber for the roof?

Count Mondego

Metric Tensor wrote: »

What hourly rate have you put your own time in at in that calculation?

Also - would be interested to know what VAT rate did you pay on the concrete, the blocks and the timber for the roof?

The hours I put in would probably have been sitting on my arse otherwise. How much do you earn after six o'clock every evening?

I paid 23% on all materials, are you implying that the only profit a builder makes is the 9.5% of a difference he makes in the VAT?

Metric Tensor

Count Mondego wrote: »

I paid 23% on all materials, are you implying that the only profit a builder makes is the 9.5% of a difference he makes in the VAT?

Not at all. It's an easy thing for me to point out when showing people they're not making the saving they think they are. 9.5% of all your ex VAT material costs is a substantial amount of money though and an easy to quantify one!

Add to that things like extra time paying rent because direct labour is normally slower.

Inevitable days off work.

You may have bought a van or trailer to be hauling stuff around.

You likely didn't benefit from the best rates suppliers can give because you won't be providing repeat business.

Most direct labour jobs also go over budget because along the way decisions are made to "upgrade" the initially coated spec.

Your engineer may have charged less if he wasn't going to have to hold your hand all the way through.

You should have taken out self build insurance which would also be built into the contractors tender price.

You also had to pay someone to act as PSCS so that you wouldn't get sued into oblivion (or worse jailed) if there was an accident.

There's plenty more too - I'm not saying all of the above apply to you but some will have and others will experience a different subset.

You won't find many direct labour jobs where the owner admits they didn't make a saving. It's human nature. But you'll find plenty of professionals who have seen both sides of the coin and will be able to tell you both the good and the bad.

sydthebeat

You'll always hear the "good news" direct Labour stories, and hardly ever hear the horror stories of long build times, budget over runs, myrid of expensive mistakes fixed etc.

Its definitely not for everyone and saying it is "not rocket science" pays a disservice to those who have years of experience knowing the right and wrong ways of doing things. 'Building science' is absolutely an involved learning and even moreso in the last decade with the numerous increases in building regulations and new on site techniques, processes and materials.

Running a building site "after six o clock" isn't practical either, unless all the trades are mates doing after hours favours

JoeA3

Indeed, doing any works on the site after hours can be a planning and insurance issue too. It's actually one of the clauses in my planning that works are only carried out during normal working hours! Doubtful that this will be strictly adhered to by anyone mind you, but still...

Count Mondego

sydthebeat wrote: »

Its definitely not for everyone and saying it is "not rocket science" pays a disservice to those who have years of experience knowing the right and wrong ways of doing things. 'Building science' is absolutely an involved learning and even moreso in the last decade

Not dismissing builder's at all but one poster made the comparison with someone landing in an office and being expected to do a Programmers or Doctors job, which is a ridiculous statement. The engineer is there to handle the science and the selfbuilder can do loads of donkey work that would otherwise be carried out by the builder.

It might cost time and effort, but if you can knock 25-30k off your mortgage drawdown it's worth the hassle. Full site insurance for 18 months was 1200 by the way. This is a great forum and some excellent contributors but also a touch of arrogance to go along with some of them.

Metric Tensor

Count Mondego wrote: »

This is a great forum and some excellent contributors but also a touch of arrogance to go along with some of them.

I take it that's aimed at me and I apologise if anything I said came across as arrogant - I hate to see it in other fora and I wouldn't like to think that was the vibe my posts gave out.


I do however stand by my statement that Joe Soap cannot do the job of a top quality contractor without experience. It would be the same as doing your own tiling or carpentry. You might be able to do an acceptable/passable job on your first try but it's unlikely to be of the highest standard.


All I say above is based on the experience of dealing the good quality contractors, poor quality contractors, good quality direct labour owners and poor quality direct labour owners over the years.

sydthebeat

Count Mondego wrote: »

It might cost time and effort, but if you can knock 25-30k off your mortgage drawdown it's worth the hassle. Full site insurance for 18 months was 1200 by the way. This is a great forum and some excellent contributors but also a touch of arrogance to go along with some of them.

yeah ive no problem with the tag arrogant either.... it stems from seeing the quality of work that happens on site by untrained / ignorant and (a lot of the time) frankly unable persons.

The days of a guy building his own family home from some blocks and timber, a la the 70s and 80s, are well gone. The regulations today are extermely onerous to meet, the mechanicial systsems to be used are compliacted and involved.... and the coordination of all that on site, in a well designed house, is not simple at all.

dubrov

In fairness it isn't rocket science to manage a build. However experience does make a difference.

I'd imagine all self builders would do things better and quicker if they were to do it a second time.

In saying that, you'd have to be doing things really badly to self build, put in the hours but still end up with higher costs

dubrov

Just to add, the regulations are complex but that is why you pay architects, engineers, energy consultants to cover those areas.

Don't believe a contractor is aware of all the regulations either

caddy16

Count Mondego wrote: »

That's a load of BS in fairness. Building a house is not rocket science and once you have a good engineer and decent sub contractors there should be no problems. I've just done this without any previous experience and made no expensive mistakes, but saved myself the cost of a builder's profit. The Engineer cost 6k and between him, myself and the trades men, any issues were worked out. I think the main benefit is that I've seen every single thing that the tradesmen have done, since the foundation went down until the light bulbs went in. I'd say there's plenty of shortcuts hidden behind paint and plaster when a contractor hands over the keys.

Main advise is to price everything three or four times, and compare like with like. Also, more often than not the cheapest quote is not the best option either.

Couldn't agree more but also not surprised by the responses. It's the reason many posters now look for alternative platforms to seek advice.

Goldengirl

sydthebeat wrote: »

yeah ive no problem with the tag arrogant either.... it stems from seeing the quality of work that happens on site by untrained / ignorant and (a lot of the time) frankly unable persons.

The days of a guy building his own family home from some blocks and timber, a la the 70s and 80s, are well gone. The regulations today are extermely onerous to meet, the mechanicial systsems to be used are compliacted and involved.... and the coordination of all that on site, in a well designed house, is not simple at all.

While I agree that direct labour by ordinary people may not be possible in the era now of high regulation, sometimes going with professionals can be a disaster too .
I went for a contractor with an architect designed and certified extension, and despite my best efforts picking a recommended person and planning everything in advance, we have had nothing but delays and setbacks throughout. Inane excuses for builders not turning up for weeks on end ( usually after receiving a stage payment ) supplies not being ordered or ready, slipshod work that has had to be redone , and it is still unfinished at over twice the time scale, and at this stage we despair of it ever being finished .
So I would say that if you think you have the time and energy and expertise to hand in the form of an architect or engineer , educate yourself and go for self build and save the heartache of paying a premium to some tosser who doesn't care about your home or family like you do. A nightmare experience

SebastienKrollem11

Direct labour would be quite difficult to implement.

Eclectic Dan

Have any self-builders here kept a diary or log during their build?

I'd love to hear real stories before making my mind up on whether paying a contractor is worth the premium.

I don't know about others, but the potential savings that are being talked about are too big to ignore or dismiss without a full appreciation.

SebastienKrollem11

Ok, nice

mike_2009

There are plenty of self builders and many have kept a log - youtube, blogs, forum posts etc. It's certainly not easy but very much possible. I would love a builder led project but can't afford it. Self-Build is my only route now and riskier but my only other option is to sell the site after years of planning and I don't want to give up.

Anyway - Pure Living for Life, Trent & Ally on YouTube. They have an entire series but both American.

The blog section on https://forum.buildhub.org.uk has a raft of people in various stages of building their own homes - closer to us as most are UK based

Seamus in Newbridge wrote up his here: https://selfbuild.blog

There are dozens of others I've book marked over the years:

https://uphillhouse.netplusdesign.com

Won't bore you with the rest, I've a particular interest in Passive Houses myself.....

ECO_Mental

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/110859636#Comment_110859636

Yeah you might be able to do it yourself if you have the know how but building houses with the current regulations is complicated, NZEB, air tightness Heat pumps, MHRV etc etc

What I found just after building myself is that where you might come up with problems is getting funding from the banks...The industry is pushing people towards main contractors. The banks want you to get a main contractor, getting mortgage approval will require a detailed price breakdown and they want a firm cost. Signing of on interim payments will require not only a solicitor but an engineer or QS to certify the works has been completed. Final payments the bank will hold back 10% until they get all the certificates of completion (air tightness, structural certs etc etc)

What you will find also is block layers electricians usually have a couple of builders they work for and they keep these guys happy, going off doing odd jobs for direct labour jobs they are not too keen. Because they know when they turn up to site everything will be ready for them.

Unless you are in the business I would recommend go down the main builder, also get a QS involved and do up a Detailed BOQ that you will tender off...best money I ever spent. Builders love it as well as they can price the job easily and they have plenty of work so you want to make as easy as possible for them.

It might cost more though but that's debatable as you are taking on a lot more risk..

regarding the VAT situation yes there is a bit of money to be saved there, but what I found its not as much as you think it will be. If you put your kitchen guy through your builder and your appliances etc as a PC sum/nominated sub contractor they will charge you 5% on top of that for attendance and profit. So your 13.5% now becomes 18.5% still a saving but don't be relying on this to be a cash cow of savings

briangriffin

I began building in late 2020. Through two lockdowns and fairly comprehensive price increases. Complete novice the extent of my building experience is hanging a picture frame. My advice is as follows.

Selfbuild as in you acting as the main contractor lining up trades and subcontracting buying materials etc is not an easy task, it involves lots of stress and worry. However a contractor price per square foot to a builders finish ( no floorings, kitchen or sanitary ware or esb connection) pre price hikes was €130 - 140 post price hikes as in right now in 2022 id be very surprised if you could get a price below €150 depending on your location. I couldn't afford a contractor and yes contrary to what is posted above I have made significant savings by not going down the contractor route.

If you have a good engineer if you employ a good QS and have a template to stick to then you can organise everything yourself. Again it will be stressful make no mistake and research every single aspect the regs the materials the trades. Get at least 5 prices for every trade and have at least 4 hardware stores and get a rep from the hardware to your house deal only with the reps and tell them you are pricing 4 stores. Project managers are an alternative to a contractor but get a recommendation they are cheaper than a contractor but bear less responsibility. There is a self build facebook group with plenty of advice but take some of it with a pinch of salt and contact your engineer if in doubt.

I have met the best of trades and the worst recommendations don't mean mistakes won't be made, the cheapest trade will not always be the one to go with and the same applies for the dearest especially the dearest because you are being screwed twice - look at work if you can or only employ local trades who have a reputation to protect. Get 5 quotes for each there might be 5 -7 k in the difference per quote for the same work.

Have a written list of the work involved so you are getting a like for like quote e.g. strip pile and bund topsoil from site , dig foundations lay mesh and pour with 30n concrete. Have a schedule for your electrician quotes. All the details will be in your construction drawings.

Get the quote then talk about cash never before.

Be prepared to have your phone calls ignored... get a feel for your tradesmen before you hire as best you can.

Advantages of self build:

You will know every detail of your new home. You are the boss.

If you are astute and prepared to research and haggle and price around you will save a significant amount of money.

You will be deciding on all finishes.

You can do things if you have a little help and time which will save money like airtightness around windows, floor insulation etc

Disadvantages:

You are the boss you bear the responsibility. Mistakes will cost you. so research and check work no matter how experienced the trade. Take pictures send them to your engineer if in doubt.

Will take longer to build.

Dealing with trades lining them up keeping them happy ( it's a tradesman world in 2022, they have more work than they can do)

Mad quotes from people who don't want the work- always get 5 quotes.

The stress of it.

Would I go self build again?

Yes - despite the work and stress it's the only way I could afford my home,

Pm me if you want more details

SodiumCooled

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118667243#Comment_118667243

Since we are just about to start a direct labour build I can't help Dan with a diary of my build but I just wanted to comment on the comment above from Eco_Mental on getting a mortgage. I must say that the fact we are doing a direct labour build didn't even get a mention from the bank aside from the box tick to say this is how we were going. We needed to provide a costing for the build but this is simply a form provided by the bank which our architect filled out with estimated average pricing for the build and provided his credentials also of course as the certifier.

We had no issue getting to letter of offer and as I mentioned we were very upfront that we were direct labour. As for regulations, NZEB, air tightness etc our architect will oversee all this so not something you need experience with in order to manage the direct labour build and having a friend who did a contractor build with the same architect I know our fee and his fee are very similar so I would think all the work in preparing tender packs for contractors goes into helping with the build instead and you end up with a similar cost for the overseeing.

Similar to briangriffin, the cost of going contractor for us would be simply unaffordable based on the price per sq foot we were hearing even prior to the recent price increases. We would expect to make a significant saving in going the direct labour route.