Defence forces facing crisis

_blaaz

What should the government do to head off a staff shortage in the defence forces with immediate effect,given a hard border is a distinct possibility with brexit


Or will we be faced with an disturbingly large overtime bill due to poor management

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/60-of-defence-forces-staff-to-quit-in-two-years-939784.html

Gatling

Pay them properly first and foremost ,
Defence forces families shouldn't have to rely on social welfare (FIS) to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table,
It's embarrassing and shameful how we treat our defence forces

Sonny noggs

Conscription for anyone who has been claiming JSA for more than 12 months without a break.

_blaaz

While these are all good ideas....we could in theory be looking at a hard border the 1st november


Should the state given short term contracts to recently retired soldiers to shore up the immediate shortfall??....the gaurds are stretched to breaking point as it is

weldoninhio

It’s an EU border, tell the EU we need help manning it

skooterblue2

Sonny noggs wrote: »

Conscription for anyone who has been claiming JSA for more than 12 months without a break.

Its not infantry and Airmen/privates/ratings that are the major crisis point. The immediate problem for day to day running is the loss of high skill, long experience technical personnel. How do you replace an Air Corps Sergeant with 12 years experience as an avionic or a Petty Officer with 10 years experience on Volvo marine engines or a Captain with 15 years IT experience and project management?

You cant go down to Adecco or hire a new one off Jobs.ie. No one knows the sacrifices the DF staff make except for their families. The late call outs and the duties away, injury time and other injuries. The people making these decisions have never served or spent their youth flitting their youth on sailboats around the world.

At the very least we need rates restored, gratuities returned and more support for those who watch over us.

_blaaz

_blaaz wrote: »

What should the government do to head off a staff shortage in the defence forces with immediate effect,given a hard border is a distinct possibility with brexit

I was talking to a Greek friend recently and he was telling me he has to go back to Greece to serve 9 months or a year in the military there in order to keep his Greek citizenship. I think he has to do it before a certain age.

The benefits of something similar here would be immense - not least in reducing the obesity problem, the skanger problem, the boy racer problem, the howaya-I'm-still-in-me-bleedin'-pyjamas-down-in-bleedin'-Centra-at-1pm problem, and all the rest. Get them into some qualification course while there and help to rectify the skills shortage for practically everything. Just call the year something more 'civic engagement' sounding than 'conscription'.

Plumbthedepths

Conscription is a stupid and incredibly expensive idea.
Pay and the contempt held by the government for the DF needs to be addressed.

skooterblue2

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Conscription is a stupid and incredibly expensive idea.
Pay and the contempt held by the government for the DF needs to be addressed.

Its debatable, the cost of a contributing citizen is lot less than someone on social welfare, with a criminal record with substance problems (not saying that everyone on social welfare is the same). Busy people are much less likely to be burden to the state and their families/society.

People with no hope and self respect end up at the core of the tracksuit brigade. "why should I bother doing anything when there is no benefit for it?".

_blaaz

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I was talking to a Greek friend recently and he was telling me he has to go back to Greece to serve 9 months or a year in the military there in order to keep his Greek citizenship. I think he has to do it before a certain age.

The benefits of something similar here would be immense - not least in reducing the obesity problem, the skanger problem, the boy racer problem, the howaya-I'm-still-in-me-bleedin'-pyjamas-down-in-bleedin'-Centra-at-1pm problem, and all the rest. Get them into some qualification course while there and help to rectify the skills shortage for practically everything. Just call the year something more 'civic engagement' sounding than 'conscription'.

Nothing wrong with being a boy racer though?


Strange contempt of poor yous have,and virtually nothing to do with solving what could be a near immediate problem....but let you poision out i guess

Tzardine

Gatling wrote: »

....It's embarrassing and shameful how we treat our defence forces

The pay is crap, not arguement there.

But people know the pay before they apply. I dont think you can then moan about it when you accept the job and the pay scale. If they dont like it then take another job. This is exactly the advice we give to anybody else.

My grandad, dad and most of my uncles were in the army. But lets be honest, in the case of enlisted staff, its a low skilled job, how much money should we actually pay ? Minimum wage , living wage , €50,000? Who knows? I personally believe its a living wage job with additional allowances (being abroad etc) where nescessary.

I dont buy the arguement that they are doing an important role in protecting our country from foreign attack either. In the event of an attack our military would be neutralised within an hour if we are lucky.

Sonny noggs

A segment of the defence forces have done more harm than good security wise by serving as a ferry service operating in tandem with people smugglers to aid illegal immigration into the EU.

Plumbthedepths

Sonny noggs wrote:

A segment of the defence forces have done more harm than good security wise by serving as a ferry service operating in tandem with people smugglers to aid illegal immigration into the EU.

The defence forces are tasked by the government to carry out various roles. Naval vessels were in the Med at the behest of the government and EU. Our DF does not set its own missions it is under the control of the government.

Dude89

Said before the age limit for recruitment should be raised to 35 like every other army.

skooterblue2

Tzardine wrote: »

But people know the pay before they apply. I dont think you can then moan about it when you accept the job and the pay scale. If they dont like it then take another job. This is exactly the advice we give to anybody else.

My grandad, dad and most of my uncles were in the army. But lets be honest, in the case of enlisted staff, its a low skilled job, how much money should we actually pay ? Minimum wage , living wage , €50,000? Who knows? I personally believe its a living wage job with additional allowances (being abroad etc) where necessary.

I dont buy the arguement that they are doing an important role in protecting our country from foreign attack either. In the event of an attack our military would be neutralised within an hour if we are lucky.

The pay was dramatically cut during the last recession along with the gratuity. The pension fund I am not uptodate on but I welcome someone correcting me. hmmmm, the enlisted thing is very hit and miss. Some are fantastic managers and others are not, its a different culture. I wouldnt call an Avionic in the Air Corps or a PO who was a fitter/mechanic at sea low skilled. Rank and skillset can be mutually exclusive.

I dont see a foreign attack coming but then neither did the Polish in 1938 from the man of the year. We could and have had national crisis where the DF came in to help out during snow storms and other bad weather. Its not the day you want the army you go to build one. You are talking about cold war scenario. I believe the future for the European Armies will be part of integrated defence and overseas missions in Africa and Western Asia. We are "integrated" in the European Union battle group and that is how we will function, not as a standalone army.

Sonny noggs

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The defence forces are tasked by the government to carry out various roles. Naval vessels were in the Med at the behest of the government and EU. Our DF does not set its own missions it is under the control of the government.

Doesn’t take from the fact they were potentially diminishing the security of the EU.

skooterblue2

Sonny noggs wrote: »

A segment of the defence forces have done more harm than good security wise by serving as a ferry service operating in tandem with people smugglers to aid illegal immigration into the EU.

That decision was not taken by or Defence Forces but by unaccountable bureaucrats who have never stepped out behind a desk in Europe.

skooterblue2

Sonny noggs wrote: »

Doesn’t take from the fact they were potentially diminishing the security of the EU.

The Defence Forces co-ordinate that deployment they are still under the control of Brussels.

Plumbthedepths

Sonny noggs wrote:

Doesn’t take from the fact they were potentially diminishing the security of the EU.

You are blaming the DF for carrying out the orders of government.
I served in the military, you are required to obey all legal orders issued by your superior officers who are in turn ordered to carry out certain tasks by government.
What damage you think has been done is solely the responsibility of the politicians who tasked them to carry out the operations in the Med.

Tzardine

skooterblue2 wrote: »

The pay was dramatically cut during the last recession along with the gratuity. The pension fund I am not uptodate on but I welcome someone correcting me. hmmmm, the enlisted thing is very hit and miss. Some are fantastic managers and others are not, its a different culture. I wouldnt call an Avionic in the Air Corps or a PO who was a fitter/mechanic at sea low skilled. Rank and skillset can be mutually exclusive.

I dont see a foreign attack coming but then neither did the Polish in 1938 from the man of the year. We could and have had national crisis where the DF came in to help out during snow storms and other bad weather. Its not the day you want the army you go to build one. You are talking about cold war scenario. I believe the future for the European Armies will be part of integrated defence and overseas missions in Africa and Western Asia. We are "integrated" in the European Union battle group and that is how we will function, not as a standalone army.

I take the point about the skilled PO that is a fitter / mechanic etc.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that there are a lot of low skilled or unskilled soldiers.

My dad for example was a driver. Pretty low skilled. Why is there an expectation now that a unskilled role such as this in the army warrants a high salary? Or for the soldier doing security on a gate ?

Its not an easy thing to resolve I know.

But I absolutely believe that somebody that sees the salary before they apply, goes through the recruitment before accepting the job and signing the contract has no right to turn around and say that they pay is crap and I am unhappy.

Sonny noggs

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

You are blaming the DF for carrying out the orders of government.
I served in the military, you are required to obey all legal orders issued by your superior officers who are in turn ordered to carry out certain tasks by government.
What damage you think has been done is solely the responsibility of the politicians who tasked them to carry out the operations in the Med.

I doubt the order was constitutionally legal.

skooterblue2

Dude89 wrote: »

Said before the age limit for recruitment should be raised to 35 like every other army.

why? It is harder to train older people plus carrying injuries. then value for money for the taxpayer. After 25 it is much harder to train people who have never experienced military culture. Its not that simple. You find very few people joining the military after 30 and completing training.

Cyclical Apocalypse

I agree the age limit for joining is ridiculous just to join the regular army you have to be under 25 it should be raised to 35 like most other armies

Plumbthedepths

Sonny noggs wrote:

I doubt the order was constitutionally legal.

Kindly explain your comment.

Sonny noggs

Sonny noggs wrote: »

I doubt the order was constitutionally legal.

On what grounds?

Its the DFs job to go where the government tells it and do what it tells it.

Sonny noggs

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Kindly explain your comment.

Liaising with people smugglers and bringing illegal immigrants to the EU was not done in the interest of the Irish state. Arguably it was treasonous. The ‘order’ should have been refused and then challenged through the courts.

skooterblue2

Tzardine wrote: »

But I absolutely believe that somebody that sees the salary before they apply, goes through the recruitment before accepting the job and signing the contract has no right to turn around and say that they pay is crap and I am unhappy.

The paycheque in the DF is not the same as the one in Civilian life. The civilian gets paid for the hours they do or the job they do. The defence force pay cheque is much more complex and is made up of hours, technicians pay, duties, missions, experience, rank and gratuity.

If the contract was changed half way through your career then you have to make some very very serious decision.

Plumbthedepths

Sonny noggs wrote:

Liaising with people smugglers and bringing illegal immigrants to the EU was not done in the interest of the Irish state. Arguably it was treasonous. The ‘order’ should have been refused and then challenged through the courts.

The Navy was tasked by the government to carry out a humanitarian mission, which is a legal use of our DF. A legal order cannot be refused and your comment basically shows nothing other than ignorance of our DF and contempt for the suffering migrants.

skooterblue2

Cyclical Apocalypse wrote: »

I agree the age limit for joining is ridiculous just to join the regular army you have to be under 25 it should be raised to 35 like most other armies

Have you completed training? I would not like to do basic training at 30. I wouldnt like to do it 25. If you really wanted to do it you would do it between 18-22. Why would you want do to it at 30+ when you have peaked?

Sonny noggs

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The Navy was tasked by the government to carry out a humanitarian mission, which is a legal use of our DF. A legal order cannot be refused and your comment basically shows nothing other than ignorance of our DF and contempt for the suffering migrants.

Suffering of migrants. What a joke. Have you not copped on the the presence of the ships encouraged the people smugglers to step up their efforts to smuggle as many people as possible. The ships basically picked them up off the coast of Libya and dropped them off in Europe. Lots of doctors and engineers I’m sure. lots of fools hoodwinked.

skooterblue2

Sonny noggs wrote: »

Liaising with people smugglers and bringing illegal immigrants to the EU was not done in the interest of the Irish state. Arguably it was treasonous. The ‘order’ should have been refused and then challenged through the courts.

I agree it is illegal to bring in illegal immigrants that way but it is also illegal to ignore an order from the Minister/EU Central Naval Command in Brussels.

Sonny noggs

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I agree it is illegal to bring in illegal immigrants that way but it is also illegal to ignore an order from the Minister/EU Central Naval Command in Brussels.

Hardly illegal to challenge an illegal order. They should have challenged the order. Or are we claiming that any order from the minister is legal? What it he / she ordered the military to gun down Irish citizens on O’Connell Street in the morning, without cause. Would that be a legal order?

_blaaz

Sonny noggs wrote: »

Hardly illegal to challenge an illegal order. They should have challenged the order. Or are we claiming that any order from the minister is legal? What it he / she ordered the military to gun down Irish citizens without cause. Would that be a legal order?

On what grounds would they challenge the order?


There are instances where the defence forces refuse to do stuff,such as joint armed checkpoints with gaurda special branch...but reasons for.this are for another thread

Dude89

skooterblue2 wrote: »

why? It is harder to train older people plus carrying injuries. then value for money for the taxpayer. After 25 it is much harder to train people who have never experienced military culture. Its not that simple. You find very few people joining the military after 30 and completing training.

You're literally in the prime of your life at these ages it's nonsensical to limit the recruitment age to 25 you're acting like 30 is old which is quite ridiculous, The British army is 34, US is 35, Canadian is 35, armies that actually see combat.

skooterblue2

Sonny noggs wrote: »

Hardly illegal to challenge an illegal order. They should have challenged the order. Or are we claiming that any order from the minister is legal? What it he / she ordered the military to gun down Irish citizens on O’Connell Street in the morning, without cause. Would that be a legal order?

Have a look what they did to Maurice McCabe. What do you think they would do to a member of the defence forces who exposed a more serious flaw than speeding tickets?

Plumbthedepths

Sonny noggs wrote:

Suffering of migrants. What a joke. Have you not copped on the the presence of the ships encouraged the people smugglers to step up their efforts to smuggle as many people as possible. The ships basically picked them up off the coast of Libya and dropped them off in Europe. Lots of doctors and engineers I’m sure. lots of fools hoodwinked.

I'm well aware that the traffickers were alerting the various services that there was people on the water. Personally I'm ok with saving the lives of desperate people. I have kids and would do anything I could to give them a good life and hope.
The smugglers are preying on the desperate and the humanitarian urges of people such as the Irish.
Would you walk by someone needing help?

skooterblue2

Dude89 wrote: »

You're literally in the prime of your life at these ages it's nonsensical to limit the recruitment age to 25 you're acting like 30 is old which is quite ridiculous, The British army is 34, US is 35, Canadian is 35, armies that actually see combat.

Look at the statistics. Those countries are likely to go to conflict and may have to expand their recruitment base, like in World War 2. No you are not in your physical prime at 30, You are much more likely to pick up injuries when you are competing against 20 year olds. Could you also adapt your life at 30 to the military regime? Why didnt you do it when you were younger? If you were really interested you would have done it immediately after secondary school or college.

You are not comparing like with like.

Dude89

Dude89 wrote: »

You're literally in the prime of your life at these ages it's nonsensical to limit the recruitment age to 25 you're acting like 30 is old which is quite ridiculous, The British army is 34, US is 35, Canadian is 35, armies that actually see combat.

They like to get the recruits in young and fit. Anyway is it a recruitment crisis or a retention crisis? Its not that difficult to recruit and train young privates.

Its way more challenging to run the organisation if they are losing senior NCOs, technical experts or officers. These type people require years to train and develop.

They cannot just be hired off the street at short notice when needed.

Sonny noggs

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I'm well aware that the traffickers were alerting the various services that there was people on the water. Personally I'm ok with saving the lives of desperate people. I have kids and would do anything I could to give them a good life and hope.
The smugglers are preying on the desperate and the humanitarian urges of people such as the Irish.
Would you walk by someone needing help?

I would if I believed they were gaming the system like these people are. The people are desperate to get to Europe for economic reasons. They have no right or entitlement to come here. If some people had their way the whole of Africa would be welcomed into Ireland with open arms.

skooterblue2

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I'm well aware that the traffickers were alerting the various services that there was people on the water. Personally I'm ok with saving the lives of desperate people. I have kids and would do anything I could to give them a good life and hope.
The smugglers are preying on the desperate and the humanitarian urges of people such as the Irish.
Would you walk by someone needing help?

It is not Irelands job to take in everyone. It is the Defence Force job to protect our citizens and territories. This also means not taking in every Tom Dick and Harry from Pakistan, Somalia and Ethiopia.

dudara

@Sonny noggs - do not post in this thread again. Talk about derailing from the OT.

Posters - please focus on the OT and do not reply

dudara

Plumbthedepths

Topgear on Dave wrote:

They like to get the recruits in young and fit. Anyway is it a recruitment crisis or a retention crisis? Its not that difficult to recruit and train young privates.

It's a retention crisis based on the fact that serving members are expected to do more for less. Btw the 10million the government announced to much fanfare for military pay works out at circa 10 euro a week pre tax.

Plumbthedepths

skooterblue2 wrote:

It is not Irelands job to take in everyone. It is the Defence Force job to protect our citizens and territories. This also means not taking in every Tom Dick and Harry from Pakistan, Somalia and Ethiopia.

We are a member of the EU and the UN. Maybe look up what membership means and then you might understand why our DF was tasked with a mission in the Med.
We are a very small country with a small DF but the respect our DF enjoys abroad is incredible. It's just a pity so many in this island have so much contempt for them. I'm biased though as I lost 2 family members serving on an overseas mission protecting innocent civilians whose only crime was trying to live.
I'm proud of our DF, it's a pity the current government has such contempt for them.

skooterblue2

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

We are a member of the EU and the UN. Maybe look up what membership means and then you might understand why our DF was tasked with a mission in the Med.
We are a very small country with a small DF but the respect our DF enjoys abroad is incredible. It's just a pity so many in this island have so much contempt for them. I'm biased though as I lost 2 family members serving on an overseas mission protecting innocent civilians whose only crime was trying to live.
I'm proud of our DF, it's a pity the current government has such contempt for them.

I am not responding to this post because it will draw me into a conflict with the Mod directive. I will leave it as I have a different opinion. Feel free to attract the Mods wrath.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Dude89 wrote: »

Said before the age limit for recruitment should be raised to 35 like every other army.

Just Googled it there. 25 years is a very low cut off. I wouldn't qualify to join them , but am much healthier and stronger and have a lot more cop on now than when I was in my early 20's.

I mean, what makes a 26 year old a bad recruit but a 24 year old is fine? I mean I understand not wanting someone in their 40's to join the forces for 25 years as you could end up with a (grand) 'dad's army'. But it must be the only job in the state that has a cut off age of 18-25 to join.

The Gardai have the age limit set at 35.

Plumbthedepths

skooterblue2 wrote:

I am not responding to this post because it will draw me into a conflict with the Mod directive. I will leave it as I have a different opinion. Feel free to attract the Mods wrath.

I have no issue with acting in an humanitarian manner, the sailors pulling people from the med only saw another person needing help the politics / economics weren't an issue. If you believe Europe has no responsibility for economic migration I'm afraid you have no knowledge of colonialism. Yes the Irish did take part abeit as employees but they were still there.

skooterblue2

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Anyway is it a recruitment crisis or a retention crisis? Its not that difficult to recruit and train young privates.
.

Its a bit of both. The more important is to stem the lost of experienced technical personnel. Training staff are complaining about standards.

One of relaxations are during the recruit training is that they used take recruits away for 3 weeks with no contact with home or access to television or internet. Now they get access to the internet for a few hours a day. They pick up injuries easier too due to not wearing boots as children and wearing soft shoes (fallen arches). The first two years of training is fairly tough with winter exercises. IF you do not pay the money they will not come. You have much more money and it easier in civvy street, with a 9 to 5.

Plumbthedepths

skooterblue2 wrote:

One of relaxations are during the recruit training is that they used take recruits away for 3 weeks with no contact with home or access to television or internet. Now they get access to the internet for a few hours a day. They pick up injuries easier too due to not wearing boots as children and wearing soft shoes (fallen arches). The first two years of training is fairly tough with winter exercises. IF you do not pay the money they will not come. You have much more money and it easier in civvy street, with a 9 to 5.

You are correct in one regard pay the money and they will come, but placing value on service is also an issue. I see commentary on a regular basis denigrating the service given by members of the DF. The government should publish the positive sides of our DF. It's incredible the respect our DF gets aboard but yet people in this country are ignorant to it. It was a rapid reaction Irish force that saved the lives of other UN peace keepers in the Golan heights.
A Netflix movie the 'Seige of Jadotville' showed the courage of our DF, eventhough the movie depicts an era of 60+ years ago that bravery and devotion to duty still exists.

skooterblue2

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

A Netflix movie the 'Seige of Jadotville' showed the courage of our DF, eventhough the movie depicts an era of 60+ years ago that bravery and devotion to duty still exists.

That is not positive recruitment movie for the Defence Forces. That shows a force under attack, outnumbered and lead by more experienced leadership and better motivated. They were abandoned by the bureaucrats, politicians and staff. They were denied Casevac and resupply in force and artillery support. They werent equipped sufficiently.

They then were forced to surrender. The worst part was when they were brought home, they were disgraced and it was too late for too many of them. However Conor Cruise OBrien went onto be a Government minister the ultimate politically correct crook. The man was a running joke as regards Post & Telegraphs and I think education. Still got his pensions and perks.

Must have been a different movie I saw. These movies are wonderful and what not but when you are in the trenches and you hear there is no more food and ammo and water are running low. That is something different.

Pintman Paddy Losty

The Irish army are a joke. They're paid more than enough for what they do. It's not like you have the brightest of lads joining up. You don't even need a leaving cert to get in. Then they spend their time sitting around a barracks all day. Finish up at 4.30 every day and get half days on Wednesday and Fridays. Go to the gym during working hours.

Then don't get me started about overseas. A glorified holiday camp.

skooterblue2

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

The Irish army are a joke. They're paid more than enough for what they do. It's not like you have the brightest of lads joining up. You don't even need a leaving cert to get in. Then they spend their time sitting around a barracks all day. Finish up at 4.30 every day and get half days on Wednesday and Fridays. Go to the gym during working hours.

Then don't get me started about overseas. A glorified holiday camp.

You didnt get past interview stage did you? The officer didnt like the cut of your jib? You need a Pass leaving cert.

Not true either plenty of duties, exercises and training to be doing. Thats their job to be physically fit.

Overseas? My friend was over in the Balkans and the toilets bowls cracked with the freezing temperatures. 3 minute showers in CHAD? I think about 85 members of the Defence Forces have died overseas. Chance of Rabies, one died from a strange type of cancer, PTSD from Shelling and what not? You are welcome to call it a holiday camp.