Sentencing reforms

Samuel T. Cogley

The rationale for the sentence is given in the report.

Hal3000

Suspended sentences for sexual assault of minors is now the norm in Ireland

https://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-man-sexual-assault-cousins-4744600-Jul2019/

hullaballoo

Hal3000 wrote: »

Suspended sentences for sexual assault of minors is now the norm in Ireland

https://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-man-sexual-assault-cousins-4744600-Jul2019/

Tbh, I think despite the efforts we've made to engage in proper discussion on the legal points here, you are not really engaging on that.

Your above post is just sensationalist nonsense.

In order to make a statement like x "is now the norm in Ireland", you have to show that over a period of time, in every case (or nearly every case) of a similar type, x has happened.

We cannot engage you on the issues of sentencing and sentencing reform without some valid arguable starting point.

If we tried and engage on your above premise, things would get pretty surreal and absurd fairly quickly.

Hal3000

hullaballoo wrote: »

Tbh, I think despite the efforts we've made to engage in proper discussion on the legal points here, you are not really engaging on that.

Your above post is just sensationalist nonsense.

In order to make a statement like x "is now the norm in Ireland", you have to show that over a period of time, in every case (or nearly every case) of a similar type, x has happened.

We cannot engage you on the issues of sentencing and sentencing reform without some valid arguable starting point.

If we tried and engage on your above premise, things would get pretty surreal and absurd fairly quickly.

Would you like me to link every suspended sentence handed out for similar crimes also including viewing child abuse imagery? Sensationalist? Get a grip. It's happening every day now and most are getting suspended sentences, therefore they are becoming the norm when dealing with this type of crime. I could ask you to prove the opposite and show proper sentences handed down by the courts for similar crimes?

CIARAN_BOYLE

Hal3000 wrote: »

Would you like me to link every suspended sentence handed out for similar crimes also including viewing child abuse imagery? Sensationalist? Get a grip. It's happening every day now.

He wants you to discuss some form of legal point rather than dumping links.

This is a legal discussion forum.

Anyway a point worth some level of discussion is that a moderate reoffending risk is apparently acceptable without the need to put the perpetrator through a rehabilitative program within a jail.

Samuel T. Cogley

As I indicated above sespended sentances are used, especially in the first instance, due to limited prison places. Should we be letting out violent offenders with multiple convictions in order to jail people who are very unlikely to re-offend.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

As I indicated above sespended sentances are used, especially in the first instance, due to limited prison places. Should we be letting out violent offenders with multiple convictions in order to jail people who are very unlikely to re-offend.

Perhaps you would know more than I would.

The most recent article states that the probation service felt that the offender would be moderately likely to reoffend.

Moderately likely is not imo very unlikely but I have no idea what type of range the probation service attaches the word moderately to.

Is it 10% or 30% or 45%?

To me moderately likely is a not insignificant risk.

While this is a first time conviction its multiple counts with multiple victims and moderately likely to reoccur. If my understanding of moderately likely is in anyway in line with the probation service it is probably too high.

Peregrinus

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

The most recent article states that the probation service felt that the offender would be moderately likely to reoffend.

And did they think he was less likely to reoffend if he received a custodial sentence?

Hal3000

Hal3000 wrote: »

Would you like me to link every suspended sentence handed out for similar crimes also including viewing child abuse imagery? Sensationalist? Get a grip. It's happening every day now and most are getting suspended sentences, therefore they are becoming the norm when dealing with this type of crime. I could ask you to prove the opposite and show proper sentences handed down by the courts for similar crimes?

That's not how reasoned argument works. You have posited a theory that suspended sentences for sexual offences are now the norm in Ireland. To support that theory you have posted one or two articles from newspapers. It has been suggested to you that this is unrepresentative of the actual legal situation. If you think about it, that becomes obvious. Newspaper articles are self-selecting, so they are more likely to print cases that will grab public attention. Any form of "soft" sentence in sexual offences will usually make the papers. But you don't get the reasons why the sentence was given.

In a fantastic study conducted by the Australian Institute of Criminology it has been shown that when people have all the facts of a case, and hear the pleas in mitigation and from the prosecution, the vast majority think the judges give appropriate sentences. When asked to select an appropriate sentence themselves, on average more than half select a less severe punishment than the judge.

Various studies have also shown that media narratives (which tend to focus on more extreme cases) lead to a broad public misperception of both the levels of crime and the punishment of crime.


So, you have made a broad generalisation without any real empirical basis beyond your own perceptions based upon media reports. But to discuss this properly we need to have a real understanding of what is going on. If you want to broaden your views on this and discuss it properly, that information is out there.

Hal3000

And another to discuss...

https://www.thejournal.ie/man-vigilante-sting-sexual-exploitation-4746740-Jul2019/

rayfitzharris

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

As I indicated above sespended sentances are used, especially in the first instance, due to limited prison places. Should we be letting out violent offenders with multiple convictions in order to jail people who are very unlikely to re-offend.

Hi Samuel, shouldn't the provision of justice to victims of crimes be independent of the number of prison places available?

By extension does't the provision of more prison places increase our ability to provide justice?

Should it really a be concern of the judiciary at all? Surely it should be matter/issue for the state only.

Would the quality/lenght of sentencing improve upon the provision of more prison places?

In that case we have to agree that current sentencing is inadequate and leaves a lot to be desired.

It seems the state needs to embark on a rapid prison building program, because
It's sickening reading constantly about seemingly crazy light sentencing from habitual reoffenders with incredulous numbers of previous convictions.

Samuel T. Cogley

Answers in bold

rayfitzharris wrote: »

Hi Samuel, shouldn't the provision of justice to victims of crimes be independent of the number of prison places available?

Yes - but it isn't


By extension does't the provision of more prison places increase our ability to provide justice?


Justice is one thing, longer sentences doesn't necessarily provide that but I'll take the risk given some of the sentences given for violent crimes.


Should it really a be concern of the judiciary at all? Surely it should be matter/issue for the state only.


No it shouldn't but what's a Judge to do if the prisoner is going to be turned away at the prison - which is what will eventually happen.


Would the quality/lenght of sentencing improve upon the provision of more prison places?


Cart before the horse. More prison places would no doubt (IMHO) result in longer sentences.


In that case we have to agree that current sentencing is inadequate and leaves a lot to be desired.


I don't agree with longer sentences per se, only for certain crimes. Prisons are vastly expensive.


It seems the state needs to embark on a rapid prison building program, because
It's sickening reading constantly about seemingly crazy light sentencing from habitual reoffenders with incredulous numbers of previous convictions.

Samuel T. Cogley

Hal3000 wrote: »

And another to discuss...

https://www.thejournal.ie/man-vigilante-sting-sexual-exploitation-4746740-Jul2019/

Go on then...

hullaballoo

I knew that would come up.

You really won't like it but my professional view on that one is that it wasn't a criminal offence what he did never mind that he was sentenced at the mid range available.

rayfitzharris

Thanks Samuel I appreciate the reply.
I had hoped there would be a proper seperation of state and judiciary, unfortunately there seems to be a gaping hole via prison place provision for the state to exert direct influence here.

I think the judges should just be able to do their job and sentence with regard to the crime. Leave it be someone else's problem if they have to foist some repeat offender back onto society. The public back lash would then fall where it's deserved.

Indeed prisons are expensive.
Has there ever been a ground up costing done on the total cost to the taxpayer and society of the current revolving door system?
Cost of crime, Garda time and resources, legal aid, cost of courts, judges, solicitors, barristers, appeals, rehab programs, social welfare,housing/intermittent stays in the big house etc for repeat offenders?

Maybe the equation is more balanced and the added benefits to society might even be worth it.

____________________________________
Would the quality/lenght of sentencing improve upon the provision of more prison places?


Cart before the horse. More prison places would no doubt (IMHO) result in longer sentences.

Cause or effect, it still points to an existing problem.

Hal3000

Finally... A decent bloody sentence

https://www.thejournal.ie/jail-rape-prostitute-4748214-Jul2019/

Hal3000

And guess what? Another suspended sentence for sexual assault. That's 3 this week alone.

https://www.thejournal.ie/male-sexually-assaulted-his-teenage-cousin-disability-4749761-Aug2019/


Mod
Thanks for these. Anything you wish to discuss?