Star trek voyager

Bobtheman

I have been watching a lot of this lately. It's repeating on a sky channel.
I have a number of observations
Firstly a lot of the main crew were badly cast and drawn out
Harry Kim
Neelix
Chakotay
7 or 9:great body but **** actress
I think they had a bad foundation. All were Terrible actors. But their story lines were even worse.
Just plain boring without any depth
Secondly:
There was no real novelistic attempt. That was the way with most tv at the time. Even star trek the next generation. However I know DS9 decided in season 5 to go that route but that was late 1990s.

Thirdly most sci fi of that period was pretty bland. I think most tv improved after the sopranos and the wire. It would be better to judge it by that period.
BSG moved sci fi in a better direction. Sometimes a too film noir direction. It's quite refreshing sometimes to look at the more positive sci fi of the pre millennium era but It was just plain unrealistic to have a ship so far from home stay relatively intact for so long

Inviere

Bobtheman wrote: »

7 or 9:great body but **** actress

I stopped reading there. Jeri Ryan was one of the standout actors of Voyager.

AMKC

Bobtheman wrote: »

I have been watching a lot of this lately. It's repeating on a sky channel.
I have a number of observations
Firstly a lot of the main crew were badly cast and drawn out
Harry Kim
Neelix
Chakotay
7 or 9:great body but **** actress
I think they had a bad foundation. All were Terrible actors. But their story lines were even worse.
Just plain boring without any depth
Secondly:
There was no real novelistic attempt. That was the way with most tv at the time. Even star trek the next generation. However I know DS9 decided in season 5 to go that route but that was late 1990s.

Thirdly most sci fi of that period was pretty bland. I think most tv improved after the sopranos and the wire. It would be better to judge it by that period.
BSG moved sci fi in a better direction. Sometimes a too film noir direction. It's quite refreshing sometimes to look at the more positive sci fi of the pre millennium era but It was just plain unrealistic to have a ship so far from home stay relatively intact for so long

Firstly a lot of the main crew were badly cast and drawn out
Harry Kim
Neelix
Chakotay

I agree Neelix was terrible but I don't think it was the actor it was the writers and the character he had to play that was annoying.

As for Chakotay yes he was boring but again it was not the actors fault he was just playing the actor that was written for him.
Harry Kims was one of the least used characters. He should have been promoted to Lieutenant after 4 or 5 years and they should have then introduced a new character either alien or a crew member maybe becoming on ensign. That was such a wasted opportunity.

Secondly:
There was no real novelistic attempt. That was the way with most tv at the time. Even star trek the next generation.

I have no problem with a series like that. That's what makes TOS and TNG so great. You can just put on almost any episode and not have to know what happened in the last one.

However I know DS9 decided in season 5 to go that route but that was late 1990s.

DS9 had been doing that from the very beginning.


Thirdly most sci fi of that period was pretty bland. I think most tv improved after the sopranos and the wire.

I disagree on both them points. First of all not only was there TNG and DS9 but we had Babylon 5 as well. So no sci-fi TV back then was not boring.
As for the two shows you mention well as far as I am aware they are not sci-fi shows and yes I have no intention of watching either as they do not interest me. I think it was DS9 that was the start of TV that has stories over a whole season or series and it was ahead of its time a a Star Trek show should be.

It was just plain unrealistic to have a ship so far from home stay relatively intact for so long. I actually think its not that unrealistic as long as the crew got along and knew what they were doing. Sure most Starfleet ships can easily go for at least 5 years before needing any maintenance. Maybe if they had of been lost for 20 years ok but 7 years not tht unrealistic really.

Maybe but we got the Equinox to show how one ship and crew were not so lucky.

TheValeyard

One of the best episodes was 'The Year of Hell' Part One. Could have made a great season out of that. But then they went and messed it up.

AMKC

TheValeyard wrote: »

One of the best episodes was 'The Year of Hell' Part One. Could have made a great season out of that. But then they went and messed it up.

That was originally going to be 3 episodes long but then it was changed for some reason.

Rawr

Inviere wrote: »

I stopped reading there. Jeri Ryan was one of the standout actors of Voyager.

I agree with this too. I was not a big fan of Seven, and felt that although she was a massive upgrade from Kes (who she replaced), she did contribute heavily to the decay of the Borg's sense of menace.

On reflection and after seeing Jeri Ryan on other programs, it is apparent that she had either been misdirected or just poorly written for. I tend to go for the latter. I feel that Seven of Nine had a lot more potential of character development and Ryan could have pulled it off too, but instead the writers played it safe and set into a formula for Seven that rarely evolved.

They could have done a better job at slowly tuning Seven into becoming more and more human over the years...with her eventually reclaiming her own sense of being Anika Hansen again as a human with a Borg past.

Instead, they stick her into Borg-mode. Tweak it slightly, leave her that way for 4 seasons, throw in the odd claim of "Voyager being her Collective now", have the script also claim that she's somehow grown, and then finally dump Chakotay onto her as an insta-"Love Interest" in the last episode for no good reason at all.

As with many things that sometimes annoy me in Trek, Seven annoys me because she was a wasted opportunity, which I do not blame Jeri Ryan for. They may have hired her for superficial reasons...but she can certainly act and could have done an awesome job if the writing was better.

Evade

Any who doubts Jeri Ryan's acting should watch Body and Soul the episode where for reasons she plays the Doctor.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

Any who doubts Jeri Ryan's acting should watch Body and Soul the episode where for reasons she plays the Doctor.

She what??? :eek:

Oh, wait, sorry; wrong Doctor.

:cool:

Inviere

Rawr wrote: »

They could have done a better job at slowly tuning Seven into becoming more and more human over the years...with her eventually reclaiming her own sense of being Anika Hansen again as a human with a Borg past.

While there's always room for improvement, Anika Hansen ceased to exist as a literal child. Seven had very very little to 'reclaim' as such, in terms of her personality. She was a Borg drone for far longer than she was a human being, and so for me, Seven's story was one of the few snippets that actually kept the Borg scary - in so far as you can't just be assimilated and a few years later find yourself de-assimilated. What they take from you, is largely gone forever.

AMKC

Inviere wrote: »

While there's always room for improvement, Anika Hansen ceased to exist as a literal child. Seven had very very little to 'reclaim' as such, in terms of her personality. She was a Borg drone for far longer than she was a human being, and so for me, Seven's story was one of the few snippets that actually kept the Borg scary - in so far as you can't just be assimilated and a few years later find yourself de-assimilated. What they take from you, is largely gone forever.

Agreed and the longer you are a Borg the less chance you will be de-assimilated unless your lucky like Picard or Seven. In fact I would say a drone has more chance of being killed in a battle than de-assimilated.

Rawr

Inviere wrote: »

While there's always room for improvement, Anika Hansen ceased to exist as a literal child. Seven had very very little to 'reclaim' as such, in terms of her personality. She was a Borg drone for far longer than she was a human being, and so for me, Seven's story was one of the few snippets that actually kept the Borg scary - in so far as you can't just be assimilated and a few years later find yourself de-assimilated. What they take from you, is largely gone forever.

Very true, and by far this is something that made the classic Borg the stuff of my own childhood nightmares (the mark of a good villain I feel).

And yes, we had Picard still haunted by his time as a Borg, and ignoring the silliness of Janeway & Co. taking their "Borg-hypospray" to undo their own assimilation, Seven's story in itself does indeed add to the Borg (especially her back story as a kid).

Although that kid is gone, I still think they could have taken a shot at having Seven grow into a human adult in her own right, that she might have chosen to become someone named Anika again (or some other name, or just Seven...but as Seven the Human). Her transition from Borg to that point might have been really interesting and could have also made some of her interactions with the Borg Queen in Dark Frontier feel a lot less pointless.

Inviere

Rawr wrote: »

Although that kid is gone, I still think they could have taken a shot at having Seven grow into a human adult in her own right, that she might have chosen to become someone named Anika again (or some other name, or just Seven...but as Seven the Human). Her transition from Borg to that point might have been really interesting and could have also made some of her interactions with the Borg Queen in Dark Frontier feel a lot less pointless.

I agree, that's where they could have improved. That said, they'd what, 3 or 4 seasons to do it...and if it was done very quickly, it'd be not very believable and venture into 'de-assimilation' territory. But yeah, I think there could have been more exploration of her finding some humanity again. I know they did try this toward the end (the Chakotay thing), but it seemed a bit rushed/tacked on.

The Megaphone

Inviere wrote: »

But yeah, I think there could have been more exploration of her finding some humanity again.

Don't forget the BS of having the Doctor help teach her about social etiquette and stuff on the holodeck - just terrible! More of a filler to give both actors screen time rather than being anything meaningful.

Daith

The Megaphone wrote: »

Don't forget the BS of having the Doctor help teach her about social etiquette and stuff on the holodeck - just terrible! More of a filler to give both actors screen time rather than being anything meaningful.

Sometimes, having the Doctor and Seven interact was the best part of the show. I'd disagree it wasn't meaningful as it built up their relationship but not everything on a show has to be meaningful.

seamus

To be fair, the doctor wasn't on his own, Janeway was often in the mentor role too, though I always found her much harsher and condescending towards Seven than the Doctor.

The dynamic fit though because the Doctor became the de facto ship's counselor and was often doling out personal advice to crew members. So in the absence of anyone else - and considering a hologram who doesn't need sleep has a lot of free time - the Doctor was probably the right choice to teach her how to function as an individual, however ridiculous it might seem.

Stark

Logic of the situation aside, the two actors had great on-screen chemistry with each other and that made it worth watching imo. Leaving aside potential creepiness due to the student/teacher relationship, if they had gotten together it would have felt like a natural progression in their relationship, unlike the "wtf?" moment with Chakotay.

seamus wrote:

To be fair, the doctor wasn't on his own, Janeway was often in the mentor role too, though I always found her much harsher and condescending towards Seven than the Doctor.

Apparently there was a lot of off-screen tension between Mulgrew and Ryan so that probably seeped in to the on-screen portrayal to a certain extent.

TheIrishGrover

The vast majority of the problems were not so much with the actors themselves as with what they were given. Robert Picardo is quite a versatile actor who was in a load of stuff in small roles prior to Voyager. And I do believe that Jeri Ryan is a pretty good actor and looking forward to her in "Picard". She most definitely - and by her own admission - was initially brought on board to sex things up. She literally had to be sewn into her outfit each day and could barely turn her neck without stopping blood flow to her head.

But, barring one or two exceptions, the characters fell into one of two camps: Annoying or boring:

Janeway: Annoying (That nails-on-blackboard voice!)
Chacotay: Boring
Paris: Annoying
Torres: Annoying
Kim: Boring
Nelix: Annoying
Kes: Boring
Tuvok: Boring (Brought NOTHING to Vulcan development)

Seven: Interesting especially as they went on.
Doctor: Funny portrayal and interesting (at times)

Their reversion to monster-of-the-week formula was probably a result of DS9. While it was well regarded in Europe - especially after Season 2 - that didn't mean higher viewership. It is now, finally, begining to get the respect it deserved in the US but it took time. The novelist approach of DS9 was probably a risk they weren't prepared to take again at that time: Star Trek relies heavily on syndication to other stations (Or did at the time) and this episodic approach made it easier for people to drop in and out.

The head-honchos and show-runners at the time were obviously seeing Voyager (And Enterprise) as simply products to sell. Well, that is their job of course, but this "manufacturing" process meant that they were unwilling to take risks:

Have a black (Enterprise) or native american character but make them as bland as possible. Let's not have that pride in oneself that Sisko had (Brooks had to fight hard to get them to allow him to shave his head as they thought it looked a bit too aggressive...).

Let's have as little sexual tension/relationships as possible but if you MUST then make the couplings as bland and obvious as possible.

Let's have as little conflict between characters as possible. And ESPECIALLY let's not show more than one opinion. Remember when they announced Voyager? It was all about "Starfleet and Maquis crews joining and the tension between their ideologies" type thing. That sounded really interesting initially. Season 1 Episode 2: Done. Finished.

I don't believe in rocking the boat simply to rock the boat but I do believe in change. I was disappointed when we found out in Discovery that Lorca was from Mirror Universe. I would have preferred him to just be a tough, uncompromising captain who would make the hard choices.
I think the Doctor and Engineer's relationship is nicely done and believable. Interesting to see how a relationship would work on a ship. It just so happens to be a gay relationship. Who gives a sh*t?

HBO and Netflix have proven the point that people want something to get their teeth into. For all the issues some had with Discovery, I don't believe anyone wanted a return to monster-of-the-week format. (Personally I loved Discovery). Picard is again going to rely heavily/entirely on story arc. At this stage, episodic TV seems.... quaint. Kind of relegated to murder mysteries and US TV shows that have run on far too long to change now..... Old fashioned.

So tldr: The blandness was down to the timing: After DS9 was not the monster huge runaway hit they were expecting, they reverted to inoffensive bland franchise that they could easily sell. Now looks quaint and outdated.

Bobtheman

Rawr wrote: »

I agree with this too. I was not a big fan of Seven, and felt that although she was a massive upgrade from Kes (who she replaced), she did contribute heavily to the decay of the Borg's sense of menace.

On reflection and after seeing Jeri Ryan on other programs, it is apparent that she had either been misdirected or just poorly written for. I tend to go for the latter. I feel that Seven of Nine had a lot more potential of character development and Ryan could have pulled it off too, but instead the writers played it safe and set into a formula for Seven that rarely evolved.

They could have done a better job at slowly tuning Seven into becoming more and more human over the years...with her eventually reclaiming her own sense of being Anika Hansen again as a human with a Borg past.

Instead, they stick her into Borg-mode. Tweak it slightly, leave her that way for 4 seasons, throw in the odd claim of "Voyager being her Collective now", have the script also claim that she's somehow grown, and then finally dump Chakotay onto her as an insta-"Love Interest" in the last episode for no good reason at all.

As with many things that sometimes annoy me in Trek, Seven annoys me because she was a wasted opportunity, which I do not blame Jeri Ryan for. They may have hired her for superficial reasons...but she can certainly act and could have done an awesome job if the writing was better.

Valid point. I haven't seen her in anything else. They over sexed her with the outfit. She collapsed the first time due to lack of circulation. You are right about not allowing her to develop .
There was a story that Janeway hated her .jeri

Bobtheman

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

The vast majority of the problems were not so much with the actors themselves as with what they were given. Robert Picardo is quite a versatile actor who was in a load of stuff in small roles prior to Voyager. And I do believe that Jeri Ryan is a pretty good actor and looking forward to her in "Picard". She most definitely - and by her own admission - was initially brought on board to sex things up. She literally had to be sewn into her outfit each day and could barely turn her neck without stopping blood flow to her head.

But, barring one or two exceptions, the characters fell into one of two camps: Annoying or boring:

Janeway: Annoying (That nails-on-blackboard voice!)
Chacotay: Boring
Paris: Annoying
Torres: Annoying
Kim: Boring
Nelix: Annoying
Kes: Boring
Tuvok: Boring (Brought NOTHING to Vulcan development)

Seven: Interesting especially as they went on.
Doctor: Funny portrayal and interesting (at times)

Their reversion to monster-of-the-week formula was probably a result of DS9. While it was well regarded in Europe - especially after Season 2 - that didn't mean higher viewership. It is now, finally, begining to get the respect it deserved in the US but it took time. The novelist approach of DS9 was probably a risk they weren't prepared to take again at that time: Star Trek relies heavily on syndication to other stations (Or did at the time) and this episodic approach made it easier for people to drop in and out.

The head-honchos and show-runners at the time were obviously seeing Voyager (And Enterprise) as simply products to sell. Well, that is their job of course, but this "manufacturing" process meant that they were unwilling to take risks:

Have a black (Enterprise) or native american character but make them as bland as possible. Let's not have that pride in oneself that Sisko had (Brooks had to fight hard to get them to allow him to shave his head as they thought it looked a bit too aggressive...).

Let's have as little sexual tension/relationships as possible but if you MUST then make the couplings as bland and obvious as possible.

Let's have as little conflict between characters as possible. And ESPECIALLY let's not show more than one opinion. Remember when they announced Voyager? It was all about "Starfleet and Maquis crews joining and the tension between their ideologies" type thing. That sounded really interesting initially. Season 1 Episode 2: Done. Finished.

I don't believe in rocking the boat simply to rock the boat but I do believe in change. I was disappointed when we found out in Discovery that Lorca was from Mirror Universe. I would have preferred him to just be a tough, uncompromising captain who would make the hard choices.
I think the Doctor and Engineer's relationship is nicely done and believable. Interesting to see how a relationship would work on a ship. It just so happens to be a gay relationship. Who gives a sh*t?

HBO and Netflix have proven the point that people want something to get their teeth into. For all the issues some had with Discovery, I don't believe anyone wanted a return to monster-of-the-week format. (Personally I loved Discovery). Picard is again going to rely heavily/entirely on story arc. At this stage, episodic TV seems.... quaint. Kind of relegated to murder mysteries and US TV shows that have run on far too long to change now..... Old fashioned.

So tldr: The blandness was down to the timing: After DS9 was not the monster huge runaway hit they were expecting, they reverted to inoffensive bland franchise that they could easily sell. Now looks quaint and outdated.

Ah I liked Janeway,the doctor, Torres and Paris.

Inviere

Bobtheman wrote: »

There was a story that Janeway hated her .jeri

More than just a story

Inviere

Inviere wrote: »

I stopped reading there. Jeri Ryan was one of the standout actors of Voyager.

I can get it though. She was directed to be that bad.
You can see, when she is allowed to be Annika or multiple personalities, that she can act. Hell even in Body of Proof series she was good

seamus

seamus wrote: »

To be fair, the doctor wasn't on his own, Janeway was often in the mentor role too, though I always found her much harsher and condescending towards Seven than the Doctor.

The dynamic fit though because the Doctor became the de facto ship's counselor and was often doling out personal advice to crew members. So in the absence of anyone else - and considering a hologram who doesn't need sleep has a lot of free time - the Doctor was probably the right choice to teach her how to function as an individual, however ridiculous it might seem.

He also had to take similar steps from the brash EMH to being a long standing member of the crew. He had walked a lot of the path that 7 would need.
Not that they ever really showed her grow.

Some of her scenes with Naomi Wildman were her ar her most human.



Fvck me but Voyager was a complete waste of a show. Such potential in every character arc, story, and premise all wasted.
Maquis Vs Starfleet was also abandoned for "Happy Families" within a few episodes.

Voyager, as a premise, needed to be serialised. Every decision about fuel/rations/damage/personnel loss/shuttle loss/torpedo use etc should have had long lasting ramifications.

Inviere

Deleted User wrote: »

I can get it though. She was directed to be that bad.

She was playing the role of a person who had no personality (or who had to grow one from virtually nothing), what people find hard to understand about that is something I don't get...

Inviere

Inviere wrote: »

She was playing the role of a person who had no personality (or who had to grow one from virtually nothing), what people find hard to understand about that is something I don't get...

That she was never allowed to grow the character or deviate from monotone delivery.

It was made worse in that they allowed glimpses of growth, they even showed that she had a full "Human" side in Unimatrix Zero but each episode brought a reset.
By the time One came along she had (and was allowed show) that she had personality, gone again afterwards.

Every step of growth should have allowed her human side (whatever that was) begin to peak out but they never let it. Direction and Writing completely hamstrung the character and actor.

Inviere

Deleted User wrote: »

That she was never allowed to grow the character or deviate from monotone delivery.

It was made worse in that they allowed glimpses of growth, they even showed that she had a full "Human" side in Unimatrix Zero but each episode brought a reset.
By the time One came along she had (and was allowed show) that she had personality, gone again afterwards.

Every step of growth should have allowed her human side (whatever that was) begin to peak out but they never let it. Direction and Writing completely hamstrung the character and actor.

That's a writing/directing problem though, not an acting one as was made out my the OP. Jeri Ryan did an amazing job with Seven given the circumstances, she made the character engaging, and made her stand out where possible.

Inviere

Inviere wrote: »

That's a writing/directing problem though, not an acting one as was made out my the OP. Jeri Ryan did an amazing job with Seven given the circumstances, she made the character engaging, and made her stand out where possible.

Ummm that's what I said...:pac:

Inviere

Deleted User wrote: »

Ummm that's what I said...:pac:

I know, I was more so getting at the "great body, **** actress" comment made about her, it's absolute garbage.

is_that_so

Inviere wrote: »

More than just a story

Yeah it was but Mulgrew has gone on to speak about it, citing a whole range of reasons, mostly Mulgrew herself. It eventually settled itself down.

Rawr

Deleted User wrote: »

Voyager, as a premise, needed to be serialised. Every decision about fuel/rations/damage/personnel loss/shuttle loss/torpedo use etc should have had long lasting ramifications.

Oh +1, that would have made Voyager a truely gripping Space Opera, instead we get.

===Early ST:VOY===
Janeway: We only have 50 torpedoes, enough fuel to last a month, a handfull of irreplaceable shuttlecraft and we're in a part of space where drinking water is more valuable than gold!! We must be careful.

===Later:===
Janeway: Fire ALL of the torpedoes. When you are done with that fire all of them again. You know what, scratch that, dump 6 shuttlecraft and half of our deuterium out in front of the enemy and then fire all of the torpedoes at that!!

Paris: But Captain! Then we'll have no shuttles!

Janeway: Don't worry Tom. Since we stopped bothering with replicator rations, you can just design your own 50's Hotrod Shuttle with replicated parts! Be sure to add a control panel to it in a 50's style that is useless to everyone else.

Tuvok: Captain....Perhaps if we offer them a large quantity of water, they would ceasefire?

Janeway: Tuvok you f**king eejit, why I would want to offer them "water"?!! God... Now, fire all of the phasers for 3 hours and get me 20 Coffees!!

Now the fuel I could get over. There are many space faring civilisations so anti-matter can be acquired but at what cost, what have they to trade with?

The damage Voyager took? It should not even have looked like the same ship, by the end. It should have been a patchwork of different technologies/materials.

I was about to say "How great would Voyager be, if made today" and I immediately thought, is that what we are going to get in Discovery next season?

California Dreamer

AMKC wrote: »

Harry Kims was one of the least used characters. He should have been promoted to Lieutenant after 4 or 5 years and they should have then introduced a new character either alien or a crew member maybe becoming on ensign.

I think I read somewhere that Brannon Braga wasn't a Garret Wang fan and just left him where he was from a character point of view.