Budget discussion - tax

Calahonda52

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/major-changes-to-motor-tax-proposed-for-upcoming-budget-1.3959563

Additional tax bands, removing hybrid tax relief and replacing diesel surcharge with NOx emissions charge are among proposals.

About time

CoBo55

Small turbo petrols produce a lot of Nox too.

Round Cable

Calahonda52 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/major-changes-to-motor-tax-proposed-for-upcoming-budget-1.3959563

Additional tax bands, removing hybrid tax relief and replacing diesel surcharge with NOx emissions charge are among proposals.

About time

If this comes to pass, it will mean no VRT on electric cars up to €44,000 which is up from the current €35,000. Great news for the Kona, e-Niro, e-Soul, and Tesla Model 3.

drunkmonkey

Sounds like a mess.

This bit though "The average tax receipt per car has fallen from €466 in 2014 to an estimated €342 this year"

Charge every car owner €470 per car. Sort out the road and charging network with the extra cash generated. Maybe even take down a toll bridge or two.

mgn

Can we not do anything in this country without adding another tax on people.
Every month there is some new tax coming in.

CFC007

Should the BEV relief remain in place, it may be prudent from a value for money perspective to taper the relief amounts. Considering the high value profile of certain BEVs availing of these reliefs, value for money concerns arise in relation to this tax expenditure. One means of addressing this is to maintain the €5,000 relief in full for all BEVs with an OMSP of €40,000, but to then taper the relief by 50% for every €1 of OMSP above €40,000 (effectively the relief would end at OMSP of €50,000). The below table illustrates how this would take effect at various levels of OMSP.
Illustration of net effect of reducing VRT rates for BEVs and tapering the relief
BEV VRT Regime with lowest rate of 7% and tapered VRT relief mechanism
OMSP €

20,000

35,000

45,000

75,000
100,000
Rate
7%

7%

7%

7%

7%
Gross VRT Charge €
1,400
2,450
3,150
5,250
7,000
Less: VRT Relief €

5,000

5,000

2,500


0

0
Net VRT Charge €
0
0
650
5,250
7,000
Effective VRT Rate
0.00%
0.00%
1.44%
7.00%
7.00%
Under the current VRT regime, the effective VRT rate for a BEV with an OMSP of €45,000 is 2.89% of OMSP (after the €5,000 VRT relief is allowed) so even with such a VRT relief tapering mechanism the effective VRT rate would be lower for a car with OMSP of €45,000. However, in a scenario where the lowest VRT rate is set at just 7%, and the €5,000 VRT relief is credited in full, a VRT charge only applies to BEVs with an OMSP in excess of €72,000. Consideration should be given as to whether a tax expenditure should be given to purchase high end BEVs.

drunkmonkey

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Sounds like a mess.

This bit though "The average tax receipt per car has fallen from €466 in 2014 to an estimated €342 this year"

Charge every car owner €470 per car. Sort out the road and charging network with the extra cash generated. Maybe even take down a toll bridge or two.

I'd be happy enough with system of a blanket €500 per year and then you can buy whatever car you want and not have to think about the tax aspect at all.


Unfortunately, that wouldn't be too long turning to €520. Then 535, then 570, and in ten years it'd be nearly and grand and would keep mounting.


People with cars are generally working, so they can't protest it. Easy target.

Black_Knight

[Deleted User] wrote: »

People with cars are generally working, so they can't protest it. Easy target.

People with cars generally can't do without them, and the government knows this.

zilog_jones

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Maybe even take down a toll bridge or two.

I find it hilarious that people complain so much about the pittance we pay for tolls in Ireland.

It costs me under €4 in tolls to drive from Cork to Dublin (assuming no M50). To do the same distance in Japan for example would cost over €50 in tolls. Sure, the quality of roads are higher, but you pay for the privilege (and a train would cost more again). That may be the extreme, but most toll roads in Europe are more expensive than what we pay.

mgn

zilog_jones wrote: »

I find it hilarious that people complain so much about the pittance we pay for tolls in Ireland.

It costs me under €4 in tolls to drive from Cork to Dublin (assuming no M50). To do the same distance in Japan for example would cost over €50 in tolls. Sure, the quality of roads are higher, but you pay for the privilege (and a train would cost more again). That may be the extreme, but most toll roads in Europe are more expensive than what we pay.

It might cost you less on tolls,but how much more on fuel does it cost you.
We have the highest duty and tax on fuel in Europe.

Mickeroo

mgn wrote: »

It might cost you less on tolls,but how much more on fuel does it cost you.
We have the highest duty and tax on fuel in Europe.

Remember what forum you're in :pac:

Lumen

mgn wrote: »

We have the highest duty and tax on fuel in Europe.

This page suggests we have the 10th highest diesel prices. Or the 11th cheapest, as you wish.

https://www.drive-alive.co.uk/fuel_prices_europe.html

Old diesel

Round Cable wrote: »

If this comes to pass, it will mean no VRT on electric cars up to €44,000 which is up from the current €35,000. Great news for the Kona, e-Niro, e-Soul, and Tesla Model 3.

What's the pre VRT price of the Tesla though.

Ditto the 64 kwh Korean stuff.

jordan191

VRT on the performance version is around €6500 currently, less the €5000 subsidy

n97 mini

Lowest band should be 0g. Second lowest 1g-50g. Dunno why they're lumping cars that emit co2 in with cars that don't/can't.

stesaurus

Think the 330e is classed as 49 so I'm just as environmentally friendly as a Leaf haha
Maybe my tax will drop?

charlieIRL

n97 mini wrote: »

Dunno why they're lumping cars that emit co2 in with cars that don't/can't.

Simple...........so they can charge you !!!

Dagryl

CFC007 wrote: »

Should the BEV relief remain in place, it may be prudent from a value for money perspective to taper the relief amounts. Considering the high value profile of certain BEVs availing of these reliefs, value for money concerns arise in relation to this tax expenditure. One means of addressing this is to maintain the €5,000 relief in full for all BEVs with an OMSP of €40,000, but to then taper the relief by 50% for every €1 of OMSP above €40,000 (effectively the relief would end at OMSP of €50,000). The below table illustrates how this would take effect at various levels of OMSP.
Illustration of net effect of reducing VRT rates for BEVs and tapering the relief
BEV VRT Regime with lowest rate of 7% and tapered VRT relief mechanism
OMSP €

20,000

35,000

45,000

75,000
100,000
Rate
7%

7%

7%

7%

7%
Gross VRT Charge €
1,400
2,450
3,150
5,250
7,000
Less: VRT Relief €

5,000

5,000

2,500


0

0
Net VRT Charge €
0
0
650
5,250
7,000
Effective VRT Rate
0.00%
0.00%
1.44%
7.00%
7.00%
Under the current VRT regime, the effective VRT rate for a BEV with an OMSP of €45,000 is 2.89% of OMSP (after the €5,000 VRT relief is allowed) so even with such a VRT relief tapering mechanism the effective VRT rate would be lower for a car with OMSP of €45,000. However, in a scenario where the lowest VRT rate is set at just 7%, and the €5,000 VRT relief is credited in full, a VRT charge only applies to BEVs with an OMSP in excess of €72,000. Consideration should be given as to whether a tax expenditure should be given to purchase high end BEVs.

I don't understand how can they "maintain the €5,000 relief in full for all BEVs" if VRT according to new rates is way lower than 5,000 if the car cost lest than 50,000.

sligo_dave

I asked this in General Motors forum but will pose the same question here as possibly more relevant.
If the changes come in as speculated in July next year, will the period January to July be allowed as a buffer period where the more favourable rate will be applied whether it is new or old method?

In some cases (the lower CO2 bracket) it will result in lower cost from July and therefore would delay uptake in certain cases.

KCross

Dagryl wrote: »

I don't understand how can they "maintain the €5,000 relief in full for all BEVs" if VRT according to new rates is way lower than 5,000 if the car cost lest than 50,000.

You might be reading into the wording a bit too much. There isnt a €5k VRT reduction on every BEV at present. What happens is that they calculate the VRT and if it's <€5k they exempt it from VRT. If its over €5k you pay whatever is in excess of the €5k. They are basically suggesting to maintain that method.

sligo_dave wrote: »

I asked this in General Motors forum but will pose the same question here as possibly more relevant.
If the changes come in as speculated in July next year, will the period January to July be allowed as a buffer period where the more favourable rate will be applied whether it is new or old method?

In some cases (the lower CO2 bracket) it will result in lower cost from July and therefore would delay uptake in certain cases.

You wont get any definitive answer on that. The document is a proposal doc to the minister. Any or all of it could be dumped or adopted. Everything else is just speculation until he stands up to deliver his budget speech!

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

What does this mean for someone like me already paying over €1400 on a 3 liter diesel?

KCross

Hunky Monster wrote: »

What does this mean for someone like me already paying over €1400 on a 3 liter diesel?

The document is mainly talking about VRT so generally only affects new sales and imports and might have a knock on to resale value.

Generally, expect over the coming years to pay more for motor tax and diesel.

n97 mini

drunkmonkey wrote: »

This bit though "The average tax receipt per car has fallen from €466 in 2014 to an estimated €342 this year"

mgn wrote: »

Can we not do anything in this country without adding another tax on people.
Every month there is some new tax coming in.

ELM327

Hunky Monster wrote: »

What does this mean for someone like me already paying over €1400 on a 3 liter diesel?

In all likelihood , nothing (except potential resale value - which , and I know from selling a 3.0 diesel recently - is at the floor anyway)


It will only impact people buying new or importing and paying VRT.
Similar to the changes in '08 I reckon.

antodeco

Its a much better way of ensuring that Diesels are phased out (rather than penalising those who bought diesels recently). Tax new diesels/petrols out of the market, and we will be fairly free of these vehicles in 10 years time. You get more uptake if its phased out like this. I bought a diesel 2 and a half year ago. My job changed, so it does very little mileage now (trip up to Belfast from Dublin once a month accounts for 60% of its usage!). Next car will probably be a hybrid!

Black_Knight

antodeco wrote: »

Next car will probably be a hybrid!

Traditional hybrids don't get much love in that document. Plug in hybrids still get some love though.

drunkmonkey

Isn't Brexit going to damage UK imports anyway, it'll be outside the Eurozone also if the pound keeps falling it might negate any vrt rises here. If the UK want to export there used cars they'll need to price them so there still attractive to us.

Old diesel

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Isn't Brexit going to damage UK imports anyway, it'll be outside the Eurozone also if the pound keeps falling it might negate any vrt rises here. If the UK want to export there used cars they'll need to price them so there still attractive to us.

Will be extra duties in a no deal brexit.

ELM327

Black_Knight wrote: »

Traditional hybrids don't get much love in that document. Plug in hybrids still get some love though.

Traditional hybrids are old hat now.

Old diesel wrote: »

Will be extra duties in a no deal brexit.

WTO standard rules would apply, similar to importing from the US.
However if there is a brexit, sterling will tank so it will remove the impact anyway

MickH503

ELM327 wrote: »

Traditional hybrids are old hat now.

But there are a lot of people who cannot avail of home charging so their choice is petrol, diesel or plain hybrid, no?

ELM327

MickH503 wrote: »

But there are a lot of people who cannot avail of home charging so their choice is petrol, diesel or plain hybrid, no?

Why, do they have petrol or diesel at home?

zilog_jones

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Isn't Brexit going to damage UK imports anyway, it'll be outside the Eurozone also if the pound keeps falling it might negate any vrt rises here. If the UK want to export there used cars they'll need to price them so there still attractive to us.

There'll be the 10% tariff on top of whatever other tax, but the sterling has gone to the dogs anyway. We're importing used cars from Japan with the same tariffs (though they'll be removed over the next few years) and substantially higher shipping costs.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

Why, do they have petrol or diesel at home?

That has to be the most glib answer to a question I've seen on boards.

I'd like to buy electric, but live in an apt block, with no way to charge. What do you think I should do? Leave for work 30 minutes early to get a charge in?

I work all over, so no regular place for me to charge a car.

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

That has to be the most glib answer to a question I've seen on boards.

I'd like to buy electric, but live in an apt block, with no way to charge. What do you think I should do? Leave for work 30 minutes early to get a charge in?

I work all over, so no regular place for me to charge a car.

It's true though. No one has petrol/diesel at home but we managed in the city with city cars of 400km range before.
My first car, a 96 ford fiesta had a 450km range on a good day, driven gently.

New EVs have a 400-500km range.
Similar to city cars not so long ago.


If you cannot charge at home (since I live in an apartment and have a charger installed, why can't you charge at home?) then you could always charge at work or charge one or two times a week on the public network.


450km range. How many times would you need to charge, if you're living in the city where you can't charge at home.

grogi

mgn wrote: »

Can we not do anything in this country without adding another tax on people.
Every month there is some new tax coming in.

Over the years the car taxation decreased, so you are a bit out of touch here.

I used to pay ~ 700, then 413, now 190. My motortax has been consistently declining.

Tax is not only about generating revenue, bit also encouraging behaviour that is generally considered good.

With any VRT increased, the only ones that will suffer in the end are British getting rid of old diesels.

Car99

ELM327 wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

That has to be the most glib answer to a question I've seen on boards.

I'd like to buy electric, but live in an apt block, with no way to charge. What do you think I should do? Leave for work 30 minutes early to get a charge in?

I work all over, so no regular place for me to charge a car.

It's true though. No one has petrol/diesel at home but we managed in the city with city cars of 400km range before.
My first car, a 96 ford fiesta had a 450km range on a good day, driven gently.

New EVs have a 400-500km range.
Similar to city cars not so long ago.


If you cannot charge at home (since I live in an apartment and have a charger installed, why can't you charge at home?) then you could always charge at work or charge one or two times a week on the public network.


450km range. How many times would you need to charge, if you're living in the city where you can't charge at home.

But you can go from 0km range to 500km in two minutes in an ICE car.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

Why, do they have petrol or diesel at home?

I do. I have a big tank of it. I keep it under my car and bring it around with me.


I haven't seen a bag of electricity for sale in Centra yet, however.

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

450km range. How many times would you need to charge, if you're living in the city where you can't charge at home.

That's exactly it, the average Irish car only drives 326km per week. I'm in Sheffield at the moment visiting family. The local Morrisons has a 50kW charger. I'd say most people would be happy plugging in and charging for an hour whilst doing their weekly shop.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

Traditional hybrids are old hat now.

As a technology you are right but I think we are going to see an explosion of hybrids and plugin hybrids in the next 10 years to allow manufacturers meet their emissions targets.

We'd all like to see a full overnight switch to BEV but it's not going to happen. Manufacturers are going to control the rate of BEV adoption by holding back the volume of BEV's in favour of hybrids and Plugin hybrids as it allows them to get more from their current plants/staff.

i.e. They will do the bare minimum to meet their emissions targets which means more hybrids... its what Toyota have done and they will have saved themselves 100s of millions in fines.

zilog_jones

KCross wrote: »

i.e. They will do the bare minimum to meet their emissions targets which means more hybrids... its what Toyota have done and they will have saved themselves 100s of millions in fines.

They've also saved millions by not designing any more diesel engines for one market (Europe) when the rest of the world couldn't care less. And China are forcing them to make BEVs now. Unfortunately they wasted billions on hydrogen FCVs...

charlieIRL

liamog wrote: »

That's exactly it, the average Irish car only drives 326km per week. I'm in Sheffield at the moment visiting family. The local Morrisons has a 50kW charger. I'd say most people would be happy plugging in and charging for an hour whilst doing their weekly shop.

crikey, i do an average of 866kms a week!!!:eek:

ELM327

Car99 wrote: »

But you can go from 0km range to 500km in two minutes in an ICE car.

Last time I refilled it took me 10 minutes. I timed it at the texaco in Rathfarnham last sunday.


Refuel car from fumes to full, adding 62 litres to a 60 litre tank took about 4-5 minutes. Then I had to queue inside, pay, get out, get back in the car and go. There was only one till open so I was queuing for a number of muinutes.

Deleted User wrote: »

I do. I have a big tank of it. I keep it under my car and bring it around with me.


I haven't seen a bag of electricity for sale in Centra yet, however.

I havent seen a bag of petrol or diesel either.
Although you have electricity at home already.

KCross

zilog_jones wrote: »

They've also saved millions by not designing any more diesel engines for one market (Europe) when the rest of the world couldn't care less. And China are forcing them to make BEVs now. Unfortunately they wasted billions on hydrogen FCVs...

Like most people, I cant see FCV working for cars either but I suspect Toyota's investment in FCV wont all be wasted... they can use it for commercial vehicles like trucks/buses which they are actively developing for China. It makes sense in that case.
https://www.thedrive.com/tech/28837/china-switches-over-to-hydrogen-fuel-cells-and-toyota-delivers-the-tech


China are also reducing their BEV subsidies and increasing their FCV subsidies so its a hard one to call. Toyota are well placed to deliver whatever the market demands... FCV, Hybrid, BEV... they can do any/all of them at scale.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/finance/companies/china-scales-back-subsidies-for-electric-cars-to-spur-innovation/ar-BBVf38W

GreeBo

Deleted User wrote: »

That has to be the most glib answer to a question I've seen on boards.

I'd like to buy electric, but live in an apt block, with no way to charge. What do you think I should do? Leave for work 30 minutes early to get a charge in?

I work all over, so no regular place for me to charge a car.

How far is your commute though?
Is it not more likely that you would be charging one or twice a week at a fast charger?

kanuseeme

ELM327 wrote: »

Last time I refilled it took me 10 minutes. I timed it at the texaco in Rathfarnham last sunday.


Refuel car from fumes to full, adding 62 litres to a 60 litre tank took about 4-5 minutes. Then I had to queue inside, pay, get out, get back in the car and go. There was only one till open so I was queuing for a number of muinutes.


I havent seen a bag of petrol or diesel either.
Although you have electricity at home already.

Imagine charging for filling and still a queue, no it was the pesky locals, no it was the phev's cannot win with those, hogging the pumps and rapids.

no easy way I'm afraid, most people will be driving a hybrid (it will be the minimum acceptable for emissions) , luckier people will have electric, which depends on their commute, access to a charger, etc.

Tax is only a matter of balancing the books, if the gov needs money they will put a tax on something, a small gradual change in diesel and vrt will slowly switch the fleet to petrol hybrid/ electric.

Gerry cans and power banks, are the answers you are all looking for.

kanuseeme

ELM327 wrote: »

Traditional hybrids are old hat now.




WTO standard rules would apply, similar to importing from the US.
However if there is a brexit, sterling will tank so it will remove the impact anyway

any car imported from outside the E.U will have duty paid on it, until brexit happens.

I am not sure, but the duty collected a high % goes to the E.U ???

so any car purchased and duty paid on it before brexit would mean when its imported here after brexit another double duty tax is stuck on it?>

Seems a little unfair.

Black_Knight

ELM327 wrote: »

It's true though. No one has petrol/diesel at home but we managed in the city with city cars of 400km range before.
My first car, a 96 ford fiesta had a 450km range on a good day, driven gently.

New EVs have a 400-500km range.
Similar to city cars not so long ago.


If you cannot charge at home (since I live in an apartment and have a charger installed, why can't you charge at home?) then you could always charge at work or charge one or two times a week on the public network.


450km range. How many times would you need to charge, if you're living in the city where you can't charge at home.

I don't mean to presume too much, but I imagine your first car was 2nd hand, and didn't cost the 1996 equivalent of €38k that the Kona and eNiro are (both of which can do about 450km).

If I was living in an apartment or renting, there's no way I'd buy electric (or PHEV). There's too much uncertainty right now.
- How can I charge at my place of residence?
- How much will public charging be?
- Will there be a subscription service for those of us who don't have access to a home charger, and how much will that cost me?

Public charging will certainly be more costly than home charging, and it'd be likely that fast chargers will be even more expensive again. It can quickly start becoming as expensive to drive electric (if charging 100% publically) as a diesel. And that's after the additional premium of buying electric.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

That has to be the most glib answer to a question I've seen on boards.

I'd like to buy electric, but live in an apt block, with no way to charge.

Not glib at all if you realised that the poster that you are attacking also lives in an apt block. And successfully got a charger installed for him (claiming the €600 subsidy for it)

Beast4mdaeast

Diesel was our savour now its become the Devil

unkel

It has been known for decades that diesel causes cancer. Somehow the attention in this country was put on the benefits of the efficiency of diesel engines (and thus the low CO2 emissions) back in 2008 when the Green Party made it into government and got their wish of low taxes on diesels

Unfortunately this mistaken belief that diesel was good for the environment lead to Ireland being the country with the highest diesel car penetration in the world. For shame. Diesel vehicles unnessarily kill thousands of people a year in this country alone. If you regularly drive near towns / cities, please do not get a diesel vehicle. Ask yourself is saving a few bob for yourself in chape tax / fuel really worth contributing to killing people? Both my parents and my baby sister died of cancer (none related to people driving diesels) and it's a brutal way to die. Please move away from diesel.

September1

Here is document if someone is interested in more details https://assets.gov.ie/19116/c447474fea5e422080a6384b7a84fbed.pdf - it seems that new system is geared toward expensive cars, look at how it will affect most Teslas assuming OMSP will be adjusted in line with new VRT rates:

Model 3 SR+ starts at 48k will be starting now at 55k
Model 3 AWD LR starts at 58k will be 58k
Model 3 Performance starts at 63k will be 61k
Model S 95k LR to 92k
Model S Performance 114k to 110k
Model X LR 102k to 98k
Model X Performance 121k to 116k