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Vorsprung durch cheating

  • 06-07-2019 11:32AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭


    Dieselgate isn't over yet.

    Over the last few days investigations by the German Handelsblatt newspaper (kinda the German financial times) and Bayerischer Rundfunk (publicly owned Bavarian TV and radio station) have discovered that Audi was selling engines with cheat devices up to early 2018.

    Not just one cheat device, but four different ones on the one engine...three years after dieselgate was first discovered.

    The affected engine is the V6 tdi, used in Audi, VW and Porsche vehicles.
    The 2018 Audi A8 with that engine apparently produces 18 times more NOx than the norm.

    None of these engines made it to the US market, as Audi had been found cheating there before, but they sold them happily all over Europe.

    Also implicated in this mess is the Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt (KBA), the German motoring regulatory office.
    They happily accepted Audi's assurances that they didn't use cheating devices.
    Now Audi had to come clean about one of the four installed and the KBA is forcing them to do a recall to remove...one device, and one only.

    Some 60.000 vehicles with the V6 diesel are now getting recalled to get fixed a little bit :D

    Most of the articles, analysis and videos about this mess is in German at the moment, as the news is only just breaking ...but here is one link to an Indian article that backs up most of what I just said.

    https://www.rushlane.com/audis-dieselgate-cheat-device-12314937.html


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,546 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    "I saved you, " cried the woman
    "And you've bitten me, but why?
    You know your bite is poisonous and now I'm going to die"
    "Oh shut up, silly woman, " said the reptile with a grin
    "You knew damn well I was a snake before you took me in”


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,886 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    Yet this year in some real world test the A8 50 tdi managed to do a very low reading.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    Old diesel wrote: »
    Yet this year in some real world test the A8 50 tdi managed to do a very low reading.
    Just goes to show that it can be done...they just couldn't be arsed to do it earlier.
    Had a few more old engines to sell...profit to make.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,886 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    peasant wrote: »
    Old diesel wrote: »
    Yet this year in some real world test the A8 50 tdi managed to do a very low reading.
    Just goes to show that it can be done...they just couldn't be arsed to do it earlier.
    Had a few more old engines to sell...profit to make.

    There is stricter laws from next year I think.

    The Mercedes C220d had ZERO mg per km.

    The A8 was at 15 mg per km.

    Test was real world driving conditions by the German ADAC.

    The Civic was worst diesel at 101 mg per km but that still meets the 114 mg new standard - currently 168 is the limit.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,347 ✭✭✭mikeecho


    Are people genuinely outraged at this sort of thing.

    I couldn't give eine Scheiße what emissions my car emits, as long as it's not smoking im happy


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,227 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    mikeecho wrote: »
    Are people genuinely outraged at this sort of thing.

    I couldn't give eine Scheiße what emissions my car emits, as long as it's not smoking im happy

    It's fashionable to be seen to be Green at the moment. As always when there's an economic upturn, certain sections of society grow a conscience - or at least use the crusade to score some virtue signalling points.

    Once things go south again though, all these ideals go with it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,220 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    mikeecho wrote: »
    Are people genuinely outraged at this sort of thing.

    I couldn't give eine Scheiße what emissions my car emits, as long as it's not smoking im happy

    Lovely attitude to have, really. There's far too many people on this planet with similar deplorable attitudes.
    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    It's fashionable to be seen to be Green at the moment. As always when there's an economic upturn, certain sections of society grow a conscience - or at least use the crusade to score some virtue signalling points.

    Once things go south again though, all these ideals go with it.

    :rolleyes:

    Weak and lazy argument... If you could even call it an argument.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,227 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Lovely attitude to have, really. There's far too many people on this planet with similar deplorable attitudes.



    :rolleyes:

    Weak and lazy argument... If you could even call it an argument.

    You're missing the point.. I don't care.

    We live in a small country obsessed with showing the rest of the world how progressive we are. I am not one of those people, nor do I think that we should be heavily taxed (which is all this crusade is really about!) to "do our part" when the developing world puts out a lot more toxins than we ever will.

    I drive a nine year old diesel with 375k km on the clock. I'm doing my bit for the environment by not replacing it every 2/3 years.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 954 ✭✭✭caff


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    You're missing the point.. I don't care.

    We live in a small country obsessed with showing the rest of the world how progressive we are. I am not one of those people, nor do I think that we should be heavily taxed (which is all this crusade is really about!) to "do our part" when the developing world puts out a lot more toxins than we ever will.

    I drive a nine year old diesel with 375k km on the clock. I'm doing my bit for the environment by not replacing it every 2/3 years.
    You night be sceptical about co2 emissions etc but this is about no2, there are proven links between it and respiratory illnesses. Ireland has the highest rate of these in the EU. This isn't about a fashionable crusade it's about something we know kills people


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,220 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    I don't care.

    And that's exactly why we should be taxed to the hilt on it. What do you think happens when enough people don't care?
    We live in a small country obsessed with showing the rest of the world how progressive we are. I am not one of those people, nor do I think that we should be heavily taxed (which is all this crusade is really about!) to "do our part" when the developing world puts out a lot more toxins than we ever will.

    So we should get a pass because of our size? It's fairly Ironic to live in a developed country and dictate to underdeveloped countries on their progression. We have it good, but you shouldn't. As to your tax conspiracy theory, it's exactly that. What's your stance on mankind's influence on the environment?

    "Other countries are worse, so why should we do our part" is just a lazy lazy statement. Incredibly self centered, but that's the Irish mentality for you, me me me me.
    I drive a nine year old diesel with 375k km on the clock. I'm doing my bit for the environment by not replacing it every 2/3 years.

    I doubt the reason for not purchasing a car is due to the environment :rolleyes:


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  • Posts: 24,713 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    mikeecho wrote: »
    Are people genuinely outraged at this sort of thing.

    I couldn't give eine Schei what emissions my car emits, as long as it's not smoking im happy

    Couldn’t give a damn either. Id have been shocked if car makers weren’t doing these sort of trick, it’s what I’d do if I was them.

    If the Eu would stop their ridiculous crusade with new regulations there would be no need for car makers to be doing it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,244 ✭✭✭swarlb


    caff wrote: »
    You night be sceptical about co2 emissions etc but this is about no2, there are proven links between it and respiratory illnesses. Ireland has the highest rate of these in the EU. This isn't about a fashionable crusade it's about something we know kills people

    Kaiser is right... it's all about 'the money'..

    I have several cars , the 'newest' is a 20 year old Land Rover, as long as it passes the correct tests each year, I really don't care what comes out of the exhaust.
    Back in the mid 70's I was part of a development of a 'electric vehicle' which was being proposed to be built in Dublin, I'll let you guess how that turned out.
    Unfortunately people die from all sorts of things, which can be attributed to industry and lifestyle, maybe we should simply 'ban' everything and be done with it. The motorist is seen as an easy target, and cars in particular are almost seen in the same light as cigarette smokers.
    Do you honestly think that when Ireland 'bans' the sale of all petrol and diesel cars in the near future, that car manufacturers are simply going to stop making them.. no, they'll simply sell more of them elsewhere.
    We have this obsession with wanting to be seen as the 'best'... the 'best' educational system, the 'best' healthcare, the 'best' at lowering emissions, and all the while, the rest of the planet simply ploughs on.
    I'll ask you an unanswerable question...
    'When exactly, will the planet be 'saved', when exactly, will it all end'

    Let's say, that in ten years time we get rid of EVERY SINGLE fossil fuel burning vehicle in Ireland. Will replacing the 'fleet' with electric cars be the solution.
    What happens to all the trucks, busses, boats, larger boats, ships, trains, generators, lawnmowers, hedge trimmers.... how exactly will we sustain a country if we end up banning everything that burns fossil fuels.
    If the humble diesel or petrol car is being seen as 'evil' because it emits toxic gasses, the ANYTHING that burns fuel in a similar manner is downright demonic.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7 stanbowles99


    You're having a laugh.

    Many of the car manufacturers were flagrantly breaking the law, developing technology to circumvent their legal obligations. They did this in the EU and the USA - and to date, they have been hammered by the authorities mainly in the US. The EU has been behind on this - probably because of pressure from the big German auto companies.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,347 ✭✭✭mikeecho


    Car manufacturers have always been cheating.. before emissions were a thing, it was mpg/ fuel economy.

    They removed bits like spare wheels,alternators, removed seats and unnecessary components, taped up door gaps, grills etc

    All to give better "official" fuel economy figures.

    Be outraged all you want, but the dangers of diesel were known back in the early 2000's.

    Just like the environmental impact of mining for metals for all of the batteries we now need for our electric future are now known, yet ignored.

    Give it 10 , 15 or 20 years and we'll all be up in arms at how environmentally damaging electric cars are.

    Yet another thing to be morally outraged at.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7 stanbowles99


    Couldn’t give a damn either. Id have been shocked if car makers weren’t doing these sort of trick, it’s what I’d do if I was them.

    If the Eu would stop their ridiculous crusade with new regulations there would be no need for car makers to be doing it.

    What EU regulations? The shift to electric car production is partially a matter of national policy decisions and of voluntary commitments by manufacturers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,347 ✭✭✭mikeecho


    Couldn’t give a damn either. Id have been shocked if car makers weren’t doing these sort of trick, it’s what I’d do if I was them.

    If the Eu would stop their ridiculous crusade with new regulations there would be no need for car makers to be doing it.

    What EU regulations? The shift to electric car production is partially a matter of national policy decisions and of voluntary commitments by manufacturers.

    Euro iv , v, vi regulations for ice.
    They were pushing manufacturers to come up with less polluting engines.. and guess what.. they couldn't do it in the time frames given.

    So the auto industry do what they do best.
    Cheat.


    Also, I don't honestly believe that since 2008 the Irish public bought diesel cars for environmental reasons.
    They bought diesel for economy reasons.. cheaappp tax.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,235 ✭✭✭✭Cee-Jay-Cee


    Thankfully due to our extortionate VRT and car prices we have bugger all of those models here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,220 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    If the Eu would stop their ridiculous crusade with new regulations there would be no need for car makers to be doing it.

    What's your suggestion? Allow manufactures create engines without limiting pollutants? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,347 ✭✭✭mikeecho


    If the Eu would stop their ridiculous crusade with new regulations there would be no need for car makers to be doing it.

    What's your suggestion? Allow manufactures create engines without limiting pollutants? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

    How about being less strict.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭koutoubia


    I think I have one! A V6 142 TDI. Although judging by a quick Google it seems to be from 2015 onwards. It was in Audi not too long ago for an aux heater recall. Surprisingly they were talking to me about 'cheat' devices ....NOT!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,546 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    caff wrote: »
    You night be sceptical about co2 emissions etc but this is about no2, there are proven links between it and respiratory illnesses. Ireland has the highest rate of these in the EU. This isn't about a fashionable crusade it's about something we know kills people

    I don’t see them banning wood burning stoves, their particulate matter is worse.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭two wheels good


    mikeecho wrote: »
    How about being less strict.

    Or give regulators more powers to sanction corporations and directors. Like the Californian regulators do. Fines and prison sentences would change behaviour quickly.
    What sanction has the EU imposed on the individuals responsible in the past 3 years?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭two wheels good


    colm_mcm wrote: »
    I don’t see them banning wood burning stoves, their particulate matter is worse.

    But I'm not breathing the air in close proximity to hundreds of wood-stove chimneys every day - even throughout the Summer months.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭Toyotafanboi


    But I'm not breathing the air in close proximity to hundreds of wood-stove chimneys every day - even throughout the Summer months.

    If you live in town, you probably are.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭two wheels good


    Handelsblatt article in English

    BTW: Daimler dieselgate article.

    "The Federal Motor Transport Authority (KBA) has ordered Daimler to recall 700,000 Mercedes cars across Europe, including 280,000 in Germany for software alterations to remove alleged defeat devices. Daimler launched the updates last fall, but denies that the existing functions are illegal and has lodged an appeal against the KBA’s decision."

    Jeez, Are they all criminal corporations? [Edit] Just noticed; article dated last year but news to me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,638 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    mikeecho wrote: »
    Just like the environmental impact of mining for metals for all of the batteries we now need for our electric future are now known, yet ignored.
    They're being ignored because it's mostly a load of bollocks. Do you believe everything gowlbag "journalists" like Clarkson say? ICE cars still use a hell of a lot of metals and rare metals like platinum, etc.
    If you live in town, you probably are.
    In the summer? In close proximity? Do you walk on roofs? I think it's safe to say there are more diesel cars in regular use in populated areas in Ireland than wood burning stoves.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,347 ✭✭✭mikeecho


    mikeecho wrote: »
    Just like the environmental impact of mining for metals for all of the batteries we now need for our electric future are now known, yet ignored.
    They're being ignored because it's mostly a load of bollocks. Do you believe everything gowlbag "journalists" like Clarkson say? ICE cars still use a hell of a lot of metals and rare metals like platinum, etc.
    If you live in town, you probably are.
    In the summer? In close proximity? Do you walk on roofs? I think it's safe to say there are more diesel cars in regular use in populated areas in Ireland than wood burning stoves.

    Plenty of reputable news and scientific sources stating the impact of mining for lithium ion and Cobalt etc.
    But let's just ignore that, and jump on the green bandwagon.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,940 ✭✭✭Tazzimus


    I doubt the reason for not purchasing a car is due to the environment :rolleyes:

    That comes across as possibly the most arseholey thing I've read on here for a while.


    On the original topic, are we really surprised that this is happening? Companies will do all sorts of **** while they can get away with it, I'm sure there's probably a lot worse happening that we don't know of yet.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,638 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    mikeecho wrote: »
    Plenty of reputable news and scientific sources stating the impact of mining for lithium ion and Cobalt etc.
    But let's just ignore that, and jump on the green bandwagon.

    Current batteries contain less than 2% lithium. I'm not so sure about cobalt content, but manufacturers are looking at moving away from cobalt completely, and most EV battery manufacturers have confirmed to be using ethical sources at least.

    I'm not saying there is no problem with mining these materials, but you need to look at the full lifecycle assessment of these vehicles and not just the sourcing of minerals that form a tiny fraction of the car.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,924 ✭✭✭✭ShadowHearth


    It's all good to fight for better environment. As big of a petrolhead I am, I have no issues to be in EV, when it's actually fun, affordable and has infrastructure to support it.
    Unfortunately Ireland is Fighting environment battles by just increasing tax, that's about it. The best gravy train for those up there and us down here, will just try figure **** out ourselves.


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