Right of way

dmakc

I've a question on the old wording of right of ways within a folio.

"There is appurtenant to the property X a right to pass and repass on foot and with horses or other animals with or without carts and other conveyances and for every purpose over part of the townland of X along a passage highlighted"

There's a landlocked tillage field beside me and its only access goes through the middle of our farmyard (being a tillage field we never really overlap and never had any issues).

The lady plans to sell it in the coming couple of years and we wouldn't be buying, I'm just wondering about a scenario where someone came in looking to build on said land and were stubborn enough to drive through our farmyard for road access. Obviously I'd have a problem with this scenario. I'm wondering hypothetically do they inherit the full right of way legal terms, and if so would they be allowed house accessibility under the "for every purpose" mantra?

Nekarsulm

Not a lawyer, but the right of way exists for the person buying the field.
Getting planning would be another matter, and you could "put a spoke in their wheel" if they ever applied.
Could be a nightmare, you could be compelled to keep your yard spotless to avoid their car getting dirty, and you could never close the yard gates again.

Donald Trump

Might be a good time to get that piggery built............

148multi

dmakc wrote: »

I've a question on the old wording of right of ways within a folio.




There's a landlocked tillage field beside me and its only access goes through the middle of our farmyard (being a tillage field we never really overlap and never had any issues).

The lady plans to sell it in the coming couple of years and we wouldn't be buying, I'm just wondering about a scenario where someone came in looking to build on said land and were stubborn enough to drive through our farmyard for road access. Obviously I'd have a problem with this scenario. I'm wondering hypothetically do they inherit the full right of way legal terms, and if so would they be allowed house accessibility under the "for every purpose" mantra?

How is your tillage neighbour accessing the field

dmakc

148multi wrote: »

How is your tillage neighbour accessing the field

Through my yard a few days per year which is no problem at all. Even daily would be fine as long as its machinery or even animals. My worry is the potential of cars during cattle tests / silage / slurrying / milk lorry etc

148multi

dmakc wrote: »

Through my yard a few days per year which is no problem at all. Even daily would be fine as long as its machinery or even animals. My worry is the potential of cars during cattle tests / silage / slurrying / milk lorry etc

Would a dwelling in your neighbours have potential to cause nuance to you and your business

dmakc

148multi wrote: »

Would a dwelling in your neighbours have potential to cause nuance to you and your business

For me it would be a major discomfort to spend 15 mins closing off potential exits for cattle only to have to take them down for a random car. Gates to the yard entrance would become non existent. Not to mention the state of the place during the winter months would be impossible to keep clean. It would be inconvenient for a potential house owner also as there are days where its so busy you couldn't be getting in or out. Trying to convey that is another matter however. As I've said though, the same right of way entitlements are under my name also so it's not like I could be dictated to if a house were to go up?

_blaaz

To best of my knowledge you can in theory fence off the right of way even if it crosses someone elses land



If i was yous,id try get right of way moved to outside of farmyard/around it if possible

148multi

dmakc wrote: »

For me it would be a major discomfort to spend 15 mins closing off potential exits for cattle only to have to take them down for a random car. Gates to the yard entrance would become non existent. Not to mention the state of the place during the winter months would be impossible to keep clean. It would be inconvenient for a potential house owner also as there are days where its so busy you couldn't be getting in or out. Trying to convey that is another matter however. As I've said though, the same right of way entitlements are under my name also so it's not like I could be dictated to if a house were to go up?

Don't think you can try to argue about right of way as it stands, if you have gates to your farmyard now, would you be entitled to keep them, however if you could prove that a house would change the leve of risks and nuance that you are currently exposed to, would that be a viable objection to planning, why have you no interest in buying, lands that are entered by right of way normally achieve a lower sale price, could you buy the neighbours land and sell a corner of your own. Some times it's easier to go around an obstacle rather than through it.

_Brian

This scenario would freak me out.

As advice above I’d be looking at some way to buy this and not have risk of some narky bollix buying the land and making everyday life a nightmare.

Working class heroes

Stick a fairy ring on it.

Hard Knocks

_blaaz wrote: »

To best of my knowledge you can in theory fence off the right of way even if it crosses someone elses land

But a right of way is permitted access to your land via another property
I don’t see why the owner of the land locked property should request another person to fence off part of their own property if access is not denied

_blaaz

Hard Knocks wrote: »

But a right of way is permitted access to your land via another property
I don’t see why the owner of the land locked property should request another person to fence off part of their own property if access is not denied

Tbh i known where a large block of high land sale was stopped due to a right away across the only acess to water on it and was advised by auctioner that it could be fenced off


This is what i picked up,from my passing interest into it

dmakc

148multi wrote: »

Don't think you can try to argue about right of way as it stands, if you have gates to your farmyard now, would you be entitled to keep them, however if you could prove that a house would change the leve of risks and nuance that you are currently exposed to, would that be a viable objection to planning, why have you no interest in buying, lands that are entered by right of way normally achieve a lower sale price, could you buy the neighbours land and sell a corner of your own. Some times it's easier to go around an obstacle rather than through it.

Yes two gates are currently hanging closing access to road. Right of way also technically runs beside 3 agitation points which could be considered dangerous? Cattle running into cars coming from nowhere another potential hazard. There's no way I could fence this right of way off from the yard for car safety as it's central to everything on both sides. Plus it's a shared ROW considering I share rights to it also. Could look into a scenario of selling elsewhere to buy alright.

_Brian

dmakc wrote: »

Yes two gates are currently hanging closing access to road. Right of way also technically runs beside 3 agitation points which could be considered dangerous? Cattle running into cars coming from nowhere another potential hazard. There's no way I could fence this right of way off from the yard for car safety as it's central to everything on both sides. Plus it's a shared ROW considering I share rights to it also. Could look into a scenario of selling elsewhere to buy alright.

If you’ve been decent with current owner regarding access maybe they will be willing to do a quick deal. Definitely worth a conversation anyway.

wrangler

dmakc wrote: »

Yes two gates are currently hanging closing access to road. Right of way also technically runs beside 3 agitation points which could be considered dangerous? Cattle running into cars coming from nowhere another potential hazard. There's no way I could fence this right of way off from the yard for car safety as it's central to everything on both sides. Plus it's a shared ROW considering I share rights to it also. Could look into a scenario of selling elsewhere to buy alright.

If you could buy it it would be a great solution, you'll probably never get a chance to sort it again, The next owner could be a right h..r and you'd never have a moments peace, People have a strong sense of entitlement now that the older generation doesn't have.
Anyway it'll make your farm more valuable if there isn't a right of way across it

Donald Trump

dmakc wrote: »

Could look into a scenario of selling elsewhere to buy alright.

Just channel your inner Bull to make sure you buy it. Don't let any outsiders in

the_pen_turner

personally i would do what ever yu could to get rid of the right of way.
a few options
buy the land and keep it
buy the land between a few other farmers boundsing on on it and split it up
buy it and sell it again but with a proper drive into it
buy it and sell another bit closer to the road

Buford T. Justice XIX

_Brian wrote: »

This scenario would freak me out.

As advice above I’d be looking at some way to buy this and not have risk of some narky bollix buying the land and making everyday life a nightmare.

+1

If it could be afforded, this would be the ideal solution.

Failing that, a conversation to install another right of way that would not cross your farmyard would make the land more attractive for anyone buying it as well as making your yard more secure.

invicta

Are lads getting a little excited?

IF a person intended to build a house in that field, and access is only through the ops yard, there are two major problems for the field buyer:

(1) Who wants to access their house by going through another persons yard and more importantly,
(2) The current right of way is strictly for agriculture use ONLY!
If a person was to build a house there,they are changing it’s use,from agricultural,to residential and as such has no access to it!(as access is and has been in the past for ag. purpose ONLY!

They would HAVE to come to an agreement with the owner of said ‘right of way before even applying for planning

Buford T. Justice XIX

invicta wrote: »

Are lads getting a little excited?

IF a person intended to build a house in that field, and access is only through the ops yard, there are two major problems for the field buyer:

(1) Who wants to access their house by going through another persons yard and more importantly
(2) The current right of way is strictly for agriculture use ONLY!
If a person was to build a house there they are changing it’s use from agricultural to residential and as such has no access to it!(as access is and has been in the past for ag. purpose ONLY!

The only problem is the part that says

..and for every purpose...

So residential would still be an option on the right of way.

mikeymouse

wrangler wrote: »

If you could buy it it would be a great solution, you'll probably never get a chance to sort it again, The next owner could be a right h..r and you'd never have a moments peace, People have a strong sense of entitlement now that the older generation doesn't have.
Anyway it'll make your farm more valuable if there isn't a right of way across it

Very sad story on TG4 last night "The Field" (not the J B Keane play).
About two families ruined over a disputed right 0f way,
Worth a look, it's episode 5, all 4 previous episodes are good also.

invicta

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

The only problem is the part that says

So residential would still be an option on the right of way.

Don’t think so!
Every purpose relates to the use of the land,(cattle,sheep,tillage etc.)
The fact is there was never a house there, (or at least in the last 20 years which is how long it takes to establish a new right of way)

kingdom fan

invicta wrote: »

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

The only problem is the part that says

So residential would still be an option on the right of way.

Don’t think so!
Every purpose relates to the use of the land,(cattle,sheep,tillage etc.)
The fact is there was never a house there, (or at least in the last 20 years which is how long it takes to establish a new right of way)

Not sure you that's correct
Similar situation here. Total pain n d hole. I've gotten advice from 2 solicitors. The owners of d field and right of way over my property can do anything they want with the land. If they got planning for an airport, they can use the right of way. ( never a house there , they can look for planning of they want) At d moment they are using part of the field as a rubbish dump, sweet nothing i can do about it. Waste of time reporting it, not going into it.

invicta

kingdom fan wrote: »

Not sure you that's correct
Similar situation here. Total pain n d hole. I've gotten advice from 2 solicitors. The owners of d field and right of way over my property can do anything they want with the land. If they got planning for an airport, they can use the right of way. ( never a house there , they can look for planning of they want) At d moment they are using part of the field as a rubbish dump, sweet nothing i can do about it. Waste of time reporting it, not going into it.

Yes! They can look for planning, but you can at that time argue the case that ANY further development is compromising the right of way from what was initially intended,( I.e. Agricultural use only)as in this case here.

kingdom fan

invicta wrote: »

kingdom fan wrote: »

Not sure you that's correct
Similar situation here. Total pain n d hole. I've gotten advice from 2 solicitors. The owners of d field and right of way over my property can do anything they want with the land. If they got planning for an airport, they can use the right of way. ( never a house there , they can look for planning of they want) At d moment they are using part of the field as a rubbish dump, sweet nothing i can do about it. Waste of time reporting it, not going into it.

Yes! They can look for planning, but you can at that time argue the case that ANY further development is compromising the right of way from what was initially intended,( I.e. Agricultural use only)as in this case here.

I agree. However I'd like all my cattle to be standing in the morning and preferably on the field I left them .......
I already had one fire ......

invicta

kingdom fan wrote: »

I agree. However I'd like all my cattle to be standing in the morning and preferably on the field I left them .......
I already had one fire ......

That is despicable, sounds like a neighbour from hell.

Maybe a strategically placed hidden camera would tell a lot.

You have my sympathy.

Sheep breeder

invicta wrote: »

Don’t think so!
Every purpose relates to the use of the land,(cattle,sheep,tillage etc.)
The fact is there was never a house there, (or at least in the last 20 years which is how long it takes to establish a new right of way)

A right of way is for the purpose of user, for to travel over by the owner or their agent in what ever shape or form at anytime and has to be exercised at least once a year.
We live at the end of a shared right of way with seven other people and are the last person on it and the longest distance and have the exact same right as the first person on it.
The local gaa club has a walking right of way down the center of the pitch and one guy exercise his walking right every Stephens day at 2 o’clock with the gates opened for him.

Sheep breeder

148multi wrote: »

Don't think you can try to argue about right of way as it stands, if you have gates to your farmyard now, would you be entitled to keep them, however if you could prove that a house would change the leve of risks and nuance that you are currently exposed to, would that be a viable objection to planning, why have you no interest in buying, lands that are entered by right of way normally achieve a lower sale price, could you buy the neighbours land and sell a corner of your own. Some times it's easier to go around an obstacle rather than through it.

Gates on a right of way as above if you put them up and it does not state in the paper work you are not entitled to close them.
A recent court case a guy put up two gates on a right of way a number of years ago and when a new family moved into a property on the lane he insisted that they be kept closed at all times, when it went to court the guy had to remove the two gates and pay all expense in court, due to the paperwork stated the right of way was to pass over with out and hindrance.

On our right of way at the public road one new guy from Dublin who had moved in decided one week end to put up a gate and stud railing to keep people out from entering unless you lived there, had to take it down when the owner of the lands who owns the right way objected to interference and now open to the road again.

Sheep breeder

invicta wrote: »

That is despicable, sounds like a neighbour from hell.

Maybe a strategically placed hidden camera would tell a lot.

You have my sympathy.

You can not use a camera without putting up a sign stating you have one and cannot use any recording with out consent.

kingdom fan

I was told very similar info by solicitor.
Basically a camera could get me in more trouble. That said it can be done.
Anyway back to d op
Get solicitors advice asap. That right I'd way could be a mighty pain, it might also work out fine.
I'd b trying to put a plan on place
1. Buy the land.
2. Try meet d current owner and give then access around your yard.
A neighbour made a new road around yard and did a mighty job in fairness for 2 houses and a farm using his yard as access.

I says

I’m in the middle of litigation with the idiot who thinks they own the piece of right of way they use belonging to me. The Gaza Strip as we call it now.Tis only a bit of ground I don’t lose any sleep over it.
Approach your neighbour selling and try to work something out with them saves a lot of hassle.
Is the right of way registered because if it’s not the user has t a leg to stand on if you object the sale could fall through because it will have to go to court to get registered.

cute geoge

What is the story with unregistered right of way ,i have a unregistered right of way (lane)going trough one of my fields used by a neighbour farmer .Should there be a gate at end of lane going on to public road .I also use this lane to move cattle and if cattle are in field keep the gate closed .

ganmo

kingdom fan wrote: »

I agree. However I'd like all my cattle to be standing in the morning and preferably on the field I left them .......
I already had one fire ......

Prum

Markcheese

Check out about the farm Gates, they're a necessity on a farm yard, and as long as you allow use of the gates, then you're not impeding access... Plus the gates would prexist any change of use..
Is the local authority likely to give planning in a field in your area, if theirs no house there already it'd be unlikely, unless you're technically in a village or something....

lab man

Nekarsulm wrote:

Not a lawyer, but the right of way exists for the person buying the field. Getting planning would be another matter, and you could "put a spoke in their wheel" if they ever applied. Could be a nightmare, you could be compelled to keep your yard spotless to avoid their car getting dirty, and you could never close the yard gates again.

u actually could put up 10 gates and have 10 padlocks given to to them and they would have to open and close the gates and unlock and rock each time going in and out ... happened here...

visatorro

Neighbour has right of way through my field to his land. Right of way is along a hedge. This hedge is over grown and neighbour can't drive tractor down right of way anymore. He has started driving off the lane into my field and down to his gate. Who's responsible for cutting the hedge?

And can he travel across the field when lane is already there for him?

Say my name

visatorro wrote: »

Neighbour has right of way through my field to his land. Right of way is along a hedge. This hedge is over grown and neighbour can't drive tractor down right of way anymore. He has started driving off the lane into my field and down to his gate. Who's responsible for cutting the hedge?

And can he travel across the field when lane is already there for him?

It's your field and lane and hedge, so technically you are.

But if it was me using the right of way I'd nearly cut it myself but then I'd be leaving myself open to some dispute with the landowner if they didn't like the way it was being cut.

the_pen_turner

surely allowing the wedge to grow is the same as blocking it.

visatorro

the_pen_turner wrote: »

surely allowing the wedge to grow is the same as blocking it.

I'm not blocking it on purpose. The hedge is!
Imo if he wants to use it he should maintain it but I'm probably wrong. It's a complicated outdated way of going on. I probably think like that because I don't benefit from it!

the_pen_turner

visatorro wrote: »

I'm not blocking it on purpose. The hedge is!
Imo if he wants to use it he should maintain it but I'm probably wrong. It's a complicated outdated way of going on. I probably think like that because I don't benefit from it!

not sure either. but i would say blocking it through neglect

148multi

the_pen_turner wrote: »

surely allowing the wedge to grow is the same as blocking it.

Would agree, hedge is interfering with pass, is there any mention of who maintains the pass on your or your neighbours folios, ( can be checked on landdirect. ie) at the same time don't think your neighbour can diverge from the pass, would a flail hedge cutter solve the problem inside an hour. (in the season)

visatorro

148multi wrote: »

Would agree, hedge is interfering with pass, is there any mention of who maintains the pass on your or your neighbours folios, ( can be checked on landdirect. ie) at the same time don't think your neighbour can diverge from the pass, would a flail hedge cutter solve the problem inside an hour. (in the season)

I don't know about mentions of who takes care of it. I know he won't cut it, but it doesn't benefit me to cut it. Like that I'm not going to fall out over it either.

Lime Tree Farm

visatorro wrote: »

I'm not blocking it on purpose. The hedge is!
Imo if he wants to use it he should maintain it but I'm probably wrong. It's a complicated outdated way of going on. I probably think like that because I don't benefit from it!

You are perfectly right. We have a right of way through two adjoining neighbouring farmers’ land, clearly marked yellow on the landdirect.ie map and on their folios.

It is incumbent on us to maintain the hedge and not stray off the designated right of way. Permission to cut back mature tree limbs has been sought and granted on two occasions. The alternative would be at least mile or more roundabout trip drawing home hay or silage on a narrow public road.

visatorro

Lime Tree Farm wrote: »

You are perfectly right. We have a right of way through two adjoining neighbouring farmers’ land, clearly marked yellow on the landdirect.ie map and on their folios.

It is incumbent on us to maintain the hedge and not stray off the designated right of way. Permission to cut back mature tree limbs has been sought and granted on two occasions. The alternative would be at least mile or more roundabout trip drawing home hay or silage on a narrow public road.

Great to see two different answers! I'd imagine if it went to court the two solicitors would have different opinions as well. Judge would toss a coin then! I remember previous generation cutting the hedge before though because there was a fence there which was falling down. Neighbour said it wasn't his fence. So
They flailed hedge and made stock proof. Hedge is still stock proof just over grown.

kingdom fan

In my opinion these rights of way are a complete disaster. Mine was acquired through good will of my grandfathers generation. But a screwed up point of law now allows current generation take d piss and ride rough shod over me and future generations. I'd have no hassle letting someone use the road, if it was reasonable, give and take. But in my situation it's the road to my house and farm, and I have the road blocked routinely, in my view just to miss me off. ( car/ van parked in d middle of a road that's wide enough for 2 cars, so I can't pass, this happens about once a month) don't get me started on burning rubbish. I have stuff dumped. A stock proof fence damaged with hedge cuttings ( sounds unbelievable, I know) and I found potato stalks dumped in a silage field. Ffs.
I was confronted once about a pothole on d road, from a shower of pricks that are " entitled " to use the road.
And I have All the photos and logs with solicitors but I'm on d back foot and can do nothing about it.
Apologies. Rang over .

Lime Tree Farm

" Thus even if the right of way entitles your new neighbour to use heavy machinery, he is not entitled to use it in such manner as to damage the way and making it full of ruts, potholes and impassable. You are not obliged to maintain it unless this term was included in the grant. On the other hand, your neighbour has the right to repair and maintain the right of way. "

extracted from :https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/potholes-neighbours-and-the-law/

patsy_mccabe

I pulled back from buying some commercial property because the only access was via right of way. I know from talking to a solicitor at the time that Right Of Ways (ROW) only exist to the parcel of land in question. They don't extend to adjoining land. I think they are a disaster but a necessary evil all the same.

All ROWs have to be registered. The deadline is the 30th November 2021.
http://www.cahirsolicitors.com/rights-of-way-over-farms-and-adjoining-lands

There have been 5 standoffs here locally over ROWs. Some are not registered but may be just paths that families have used as shortcuts to land etc for generations. We have a Mass Path going through our land and it is not registered even though everyone locally knows about it. I was surprised to see that the other half of it was registered on the Land Registry. These are marked by yellow lines, by the way.

Anto_Meath

Rights of Way are as said above a necessary evil and continue to be created by the splitting up of lands. The person who enjoys the right of way nearly has more enjoyment of the property than the person who has the freehold title. Regarding planning permission this would be a separate issue. If someone was applying for planning permission on a site that was access by a right of way then they would need a letter of consent from the owner of the right of way before they could make a valid planning application, additionally a bank would be slower to approve a mortgage on a property that is accessed by a right of way.
Regarding the hedges it would be the land owners responsible to cut and maintain the hedging as the hedge would belong to the land owner and any timber retrieved from it would belong to the landowner, in fact the user of the right of way would need the permission of the landowner before cutting the hedge and would have to offer any timber obtained to the landowner.

kingdom fan

If the ROW is damaged, one may be in a court situation to resolve it. As was already mentioned here people can be finicaially broke chasing ROW issues in court. In my case I fix the road, even if people are parking lorries etc on it.

ganmo

kingdom fan wrote: »

If the ROW is damaged, one may be in a court situation to resolve it. As was already mentioned here people can be finicaially broke chasing ROW issues in court. In my case I fix the road, even if people are parking lorries etc on it.

Row are not for parking on, parking should be done on the ground the row is for.