Definition of a part time farmer

Mac Taylor

Reading the ifj, why I don’t know:D page 3 (not the suns page 3 either:D - no risk of bps payment cuts as they can’t agree on a definition of a part time farmer, Christ they really what rid of farmers or rather pt farmers.....apart from lads dairying how many lads are ft farming. Must admit getting fairly tired of this Shyte , food security, standards, environment screw the lot of it...nobody values what we are doing infact a lot would prefer we just crawled away. Anyway enough said, any thoughts or am I the only one fed up with all the noise outside the farm gate

Water John

Ask Creed, he should know.
Correction, he would know the definition of a gentleman farmer.

farawaygrass

It sure is getting demoralising

Mac Taylor

Water John wrote: »

Ask Creed, he should know.
Correction, he would know the definition of a gentleman farmer.

I know the current historical model is not right but then change it to be based on current production but trying to define on hrs etc is not right either

Cavanjack

Many’s that full time farmer farming 50 acres and many’s the part timer farming 150. Are they going to cut the lad that isn’t afraid to work?

alps

I'm not sure that this piece is accurate. The definition that was being bandied about was an "active" farmer. I don't believe that there was ever an issue with "partime".

Bass Reeves

This all stems back to when lads first started taking part time jobs if dairy was not an option due to land type. Its historical really. Along the West coast farmers fished as well. More went to work for part of the year as spalpins in farms in the Midlands or in Scotland. As the economy changed in the 60's in these area's lads started to take on jobs abd farm in the evening as tractors and other nachinery reduced workload and farming income continued to decline.

There was a certain snobbery attached to it and the FJ labeled them as hobby farmers as well as the farm organisations while taking there affiliation fees and EIF deductions excluded them from being involved in the running of organisations.. However as the income from drystock farming declined more and more farmers went down this road, they were seldon or bever in the top 10% production or efficiency wise wise so they had to be hobby farmers

Huge impediments were put in there way of expanding there farms up until 10 years ago all farm grant schems were income accessed and the limits were set at about 1/2 to 2/3 of the average industrial wage so any lads with a fairy decent job was excluded from building sheds or doing farm development. If you were self employed you could manage to work your way around this by lumping more income into the farm tax side and reducing down the other income but an ordinary employed worker could not.

It also ignored income from farmers that was seudo farming such as contracting income and income from cattledealing or working as an agent. Because of thsi farm invest by those working was limited up until 10 years ago. if you look at farm development over the last 10 years the change in thsi policy has allowed those with income to invest and transform there farms.

Keepgrowing

alps wrote: »

I'm not sure that this piece is accurate. The definition that was being bandied about was an "active" farmer. I don't believe that there was ever an issue with "partime".

That’s my reading of it. I’m certain that a family leasing their land and keeping 2ha to keep their BPS active isn’t an “active farmer”

That’s a starting point, low hanging fruit

patsy_mccabe

As a tax expert said to me a while back, the revenue doesn't want to destroy viable businesses. Why would it?
If a guy is working full time and running a small farm on the side, think of how productive he is compared to someone who is longterm unemployed.

Bass Reeves

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

As a tax expert said to me a while back, the revenue doesn't want to destroy viable businesses. Why would it?
If a guy is working full time and running a small farm on the side, think of how productive he is compared to someone who is longterm unemployed.

That is why the revenue do not interfere in the way part-time farmers are treated tax wise and the tax efficiently this allows for them. If part time farmers were shut out of the system agriculture production would drop dramatically. Loads of these lads are with suckler farmers or calf to store producers

Bass Reeves

Keepgrowing wrote: »

That’s my reading of it. I’m certain that a family leasing their land and keeping 2ha to keep their BPS active isn’t an “active farmer”

That’s a starting point, low hanging fruit

Most of these will be shafted with by the 750/HA BPS limit or the next CAP review which may again divert leased payments to the active farmer.

_Brian

Honestly nobody wants beef farming any more.
They are happy to import cheap nasty stuff from anywhere and pretend we’re all green and environmentally friendly.

I saw it suggested that it wasn’t that bad that Brazil was chopping down rainforest to supply the cheap beef because we can just continue to plant land here instead. It’s impossible to win when people are thinking like that.

There isn’t consumer or public support for farming to be making protests in Dublin. Farmers just don’t have it in them to protest properly and many beef farmers have off farm work so protesting isn’t convenient either.

I was stopped at a French farmer protest in France few years ago and it would open your eyes how they were blockading motorway and targeting imported foods. Like a military operation and police were facilitating their actions but keeping the peace, they were directing truck drivers to co operate with the farmers.

Those with influence over BPS chances will want the current system kept, that’s what I see happening, over time the money will be funnelled into greening schemes until 100% patlyment is on environmental measures.

Dinzee Conlee

Water John wrote: »

Ask Creed, he should know.
Correction, he would know the definition of a gentleman farmer.

Ok - so far in this thread we have part-time, gentleman, hobby and active farmers...

What’s the difference between each exactly?
Or is it the same thing of everyone thinking the way they farm is the best, and their method should fit the bill of whatever category they are themselves in?

Keepgrowing wrote: »

That’s my reading of it. I’m certain that a family leasing their land and keeping 2ha to keep their BPS active isn’t an “active farmer”

That’s a starting point, low hanging fruit

Why not?
Is it cos they have land leased? Or is it all farms should be bigger than 2ha?

_Brian

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Ok - so far in this thread we have part-time, gentleman, hobby and active farmers...

What’s the difference between each exactly?
Or is it the same thing of everyone thinking the way they farm is the best, and their method should fit the bill of whatever category they are themselves in?



Why not?
Is it cos they have land leased? Or is it all farms should be bigger than 2ha?

How about armchair farmers, that’s another group.

Panch18

Keepgrowing wrote: »

That’s my reading of it. I’m certain that a family leasing their land and keeping 2ha to keep their BPS active isn’t an “active farmer”

That’s a starting point, low hanging fruit

And there’s a lot of this craic going, around here anyway

Like you said low hanging fruit first

amacca

some other farmers I've heard of from time to time

big farmer

small farmer

pallet farmer

some farmer

****show farmer

tidy farmer

untidy farmer

auld bolox farmer

dirty bastard farmer

pretend farmer

wannabe farmer

wouldn't farm **** off a rope farmer (in fairness I only heard that one once, followed by "that lad would cut stones with a mower")

White Clover

amacca wrote: »

some other farmers I've heard of from time to time

big farmer

small farmer

pallet farmer

some farmer

****show farmer

tidy farmer

untidy farmer

auld bolox farmer

dirty bastard farmer

pretend farmer

wannabe farmer

wouldn't farm **** off a rope farmer (in fairness I only heard that one once, followed by "that lad would cut stones with a mower")

Concrete farmer

Birdnuts

My type would be known as a "scrub" farmer;)

screamer

Around here we have
Grabber farmer ( would buy any land at any price, graveyard is about the only off limits area)
****ehawk farmer ( has too many cattle in slotted sheds and Spends days on end stinking the village out with putrid slurry)
Part time farmer ( fellas who love the outdoors and the farming, but can’t make a living off it, so work full time and farm in their spare time)

uck51js9zml2yt

I thought part time farmers where the ones who didn't work 169 hours a week.


I'll get my pretend wellies:D

Dinzee Conlee

Maia Shapely Ranger wrote: »

I thought part time farmers where the ones who didn't work 169 hours a week.


I'll get my pretend wellies:D

Ha ha - part time lads are the ones who post about farming online...

Mac Taylor

Article in ifj

Dinzee Conlee

Mac Taylor wrote: »

Article in ifj

I think it would be impossible to define a part time farmer...

I do a bit of farming, but the majority of the farm is let on a long term lease. Some posters here would say I shouldn’t be considered a farmer, why I don’t know...

Everyone’s situation will be different, and they will then judge others by their experience - so that’s why we all have names like hobby / armchair / part-time / gentleman farmer...

The reality is it’s all the same - we are all only fighting over scraps... farming for the most part is on a downward spiral for a long long time - but we shouldn’t be surprised really. How many of us had fathers or grandfather who were full time farming and reared a family, and now the same farm barely returns a few grand...

But - maybe i’m wrong. Maybe I will be classed as not a part-time farmer, maybe I will lose my SFP - the big question then is what label will we use for lads that are farming but aren’t farmers

theaceofspies

The IFA will have a lot more 'part-time' farmers on their books if this Mercursor deal becomes reality.
Those donkeys might be handy yet for the EU headage payment or whatever will be left of that.
The sell-out was being flagged years ago here. Its time to face reality - farmers are the new fishermen and we all know what happened them. At least the EU have given us nice motorways to drive our compulsory electric cars when the next blow comes via 'Climate Change' enforced carbon taxes - tell that to the rainforests and their inhabitants:(
Big Phil didn't get the job by accident. Policy acceleration.

Who2

theaceofspies wrote: »

The IFA will have a lot more 'part-time' farmers on their books if this Mercursor deal becomes reality.
Those donkeys might be handy yet for the EU headage payment or whatever will be left of that.
The sell-out was being flagged years ago here. Its time to face reality - farmers are the new fishermen and we all know what happened them. At least the EU have given us nice motorways to drive our compulsory electric cars when the next blow comes via 'Climate Change' enforced carbon taxes - tell that to the rainforests and their inhabitants:(
Big Phil didn't get the job by accident. Policy acceleration.

arent we still sending the money for the motorways back to germany every time we use them. The lads in cavan even get hit twice before they even come within an asses roar of the big smoke. Then god forbid they need to head south.

Dinzee Conlee

Who2 wrote: »

arent we still sending the money for the motorways back to germany every time we use them. The lads in cavan even get hit twice before they even come within an asses roar of the big smoke. Then god forbid they need to head south.

You mean the toll roads?

I don’t think this is going to Germany, it’s just going to a company?

Bass Reeves

Who2 wrote: »

arent we still sending the money for the motorways back to germany every time we use them. The lads in cavan even get hit twice before they even come within an asses roar of the big smoke. Then god forbid they need to head south.

TBH I have no issue with tolls. The comfort of using a tolled road to get to Dublin or the tunnel under the shannon to Galway is a huge comfort. The other night I collected my daughter from a plane in Dublin as i was up there. I payed 2.10 for the M50 toll and 1.90 for the one at Portlaois The trip from the Airport with two sets of Roadworks took about 2.5 hours compared to 5hours 15+ years ago. If they did the Limerick to Cork N20 route if it costs 3-4 euro in tolls I be delighted.

Grueller

Bass Reeves wrote: »

TBH I have no issue with tolls. The comfort of using a tolled road to get to Dublin or the tunnel under the shannon to Galway is a huge comfort. The other night I collected my daughter from a plane in Dublin as i was up there. I payed 2.10 for the M50 toll and 1.90 for the one at Portlaois The trip from the Airport with two sets of Roadworks took about 2.5 hours compared to 5hours 15+ years ago. If they did the Limerick to Cork N20 route if it costs 3-4 euro in tolls I be delighted.

No offence Bass but that is a little bit of nimbyism. My sister commutes to Dublin from the other side of Drogheda 3 days a week. She gets caught for 6 m50 tolls a week and 6 M1 tolls a week as well. That is €24 per week x 48 weeks works out at €1152 per year.
That is the equivalent of almost €2500 of a paycut pre tax.

emaherx

Grueller wrote: »

No offence Bass but that is a little bit of nimbyism. My sister commutes to Dublin from the other side of Drogheda 3 days a week. She gets caught for 6 m50 tolls a week and 6 M1 tolls a week as well. That is €24 per week x 48 weeks works out at €1152 per year.
That is the equivalent of almost €2500 of a paycut pre tax.

Without those two toll roads she would not be able to commute to the Southside of Dublin. They save allot of time and fuel compared to the old routes.

Bass Reeves

Grueller wrote: »

No offence Bass but that is a little bit of nimbyism. My sister commutes to Dublin from the other side of Drogheda 3 days a week. She gets caught for 6 m50 tolls a week and 6 M1 tolls a week as well. That is €24 per week x 48 weeks works out at €1152 per year.
That is the equivalent of almost €2500 of a paycut pre tax.

The issue with tolls is it makes commuting very easy. A lad from near Nenagh who has been working in Shannon for the last 20 years said to me that pre motorway and tolls his journey time was from1.5-2 hous depending on traffic and time of year each way every day. Now it is 40 minutes on the button every day each way less than half the time before the motorway and tunnell. The tunnel was the big game changer it took 30-50 minutes off the time each way or over an hour a day. I agree the M50 is an expensive each way run but in a way it is a lifestyle choice.

alps

How come the wexford an Waterford boys have no tolls?..

Well except going to Cork...

Bass Reeves

alps wrote: »

How come the wexford an Waterford boys have no tolls?..

Well except going to Cork...

There is tolls going to Cork at portlois and Fermoy. The Jack lynch tunnell should be tolled but was not because camera tolling was not available. What was the name of the Minster from down there. he was I think a former labour member and was the Minister for Voting Machines. He refused to let tolls go on the Dublin/Waterford motorway

wrangler

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

I think it would be impossible to define a part time farmer...

I do a bit of farming, but the majority of the farm is let on a long term lease. Some posters here would say I shouldn’t be considered a farmer, why I don’t know...

Everyone’s situation will be different, and they will then judge others by their experience - so that’s why we all have names like hobby / armchair / part-time / gentleman farmer...

The reality is it’s all the same - we are all only fighting over scraps... farming for the most part is on a downward spiral for a long long time - but we shouldn’t be surprised really. How many of us had fathers or grandfather who were full time farming and reared a family, and now the same farm barely returns a few grand...

But - maybe i’m wrong. Maybe I will be classed as not a part-time farmer, maybe I will lose my SFP - the big question then is what label will we use for lads that are farming but aren’t farmers

Tenant should be getting the SFP , I've my land leased too and I'm saying this, We will get the benefit of it but it's madness that the whole SFP is handed over to the landowner in some cases.
It'll be a big loss here when it's taken from me :mad:

Dinzee Conlee

wrangler wrote: »

Tenant should be getting the SFP , I've my land leased too and I'm saying this, We will get the benefit of it but it's madness that the whole SFP is handed over to the landowner in some cases.
It'll be a big loss here when it's taken from me :mad:

No - in my case the SFP is only on the few acres I have (its only a small payment)
There is no SFP going with the leased land...

It’s hard to know what’s madness when it comes to farming now Wrangler. I am thinking more and more than actual farming land is madness...

uck51js9zml2yt

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Ha ha - part time lads are the ones who post about farming online...

I'm more a city boy with a very big back garden

wrangler

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

No - in my case the SFP is only on the few acres I have (its only a small payment)
There is no SFP going with the leased land...

It’s hard to know what’s madness when it comes to farming now Wrangler. I am thinking more and more than actual farming land is madness...

In the 1990s a friend, who was a teacher and had seventy sucklers, said to me that if he had 30 acres more he'd give up teaching.
It was only the other day that he reminded me of saying that and then added ''Wasn't I shocking lucky that someone didn't leave me a farm''
It's actually sad that it has come to this, I saw plenty I didn't like in New Zealand and now this country heading teh same way

Bass Reeves

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There is tolls going to Cork at portlois and Fermoy. The Jack lynch tunnell should be tolled but was not because camera tolling was not available. What was the name of the Minster from down there. he was I think a former labour member and was the Minister for Voting Machines. He refused to let tolls go on the Dublin/Waterford motorway

No road should be tolled, we are paying for these roads on the double and paying for them long long after they are fully paid off basically paying a toll operator to man it and make a lot of profit. They should never have been allowed,, we are paying tax through the nose both income taxes and motoring related taxes tolls on top of this is a total joke.