A&E drug intoxication?

noubliezjamais

I was wondering what the law regarding drug intoxication and calling an ambulance is. A few friends last week after the LC had a small gaffe with mainly cannabis and alcohol

The thing is, one of the lads who never smoked before, ate way too many pot brownies thinking "it's just a plant", and basically got paranoid and had a panic attack. He started to get a bit aggressive thinking we were trying to harm him but one of the lads had benzos/antipsychotics prescribed to him and that calmed him down.

They guy at the party didn't want to call the ambulance because he said they would arrest him for posession. I'm curious what's the law on this. I know in the States, police are automatically deployed and actually arrest people for drug posession while going to the hospital.

Is that the same case here? If you call the ambulance after having a bad drug experience from psychosis or OD and the gardai come, will they just take you to the hospital or search you for drugs?

Grolschevik

I'm curious to know when use term 'gaffe' came to mean 'party', rather than 'abode'.

Credit Checker Moose

Highly unlikely the Gardaí will also come with an ambulance.

hullaballoo

A gaffe is a blunder or remark causing unintentional embarrassment to its maker.

A gaff can mean a home. A house party was often called a "gaff party" or "gaffer" when I was an attendee at such things. I presume the insouciance of my generation has latterly shortened the term even further to just "gaff".

I don't know how you'd distinguish between a gaff and a gaff when pressed, though.

In relation to the substantive question in the OP, you may be liable for a public order offence but not for possession unless you still have some of the drug unconsumed on you.

Caranica

Always call the ambulance. It can be the difference between life and death. When you go to college, check out if they have a bystander intervention programme and get on it.

Grolschevik

hullaballoo wrote: »

A gaffe is a blunder or remark causing unintentional embarrassment to its maker.

A gaff can mean a home. A house party was often called a "gaff party" or "gaffer" when I was an attendee at such things. I presume the insouciance of my generation has latterly shortened the term even further to just "gaff".

I don't know how you'd distinguish between a gaff and a gaff when pressed, though.

In relation to the substantive question in the OP, you may be liable for a public order offence but not for possession unless you still have some of the drug unconsumed on you.

I've no recollection of ever seeing 'gaff' written down, so had no idea they were spelt differently. Genuinely, thank you for that!

Edit: etymology?

hullaballoo

Possibly stems from the usage to refer to very, very low-rent entertainment establishments for the gutter classes. Origins unknown.

I'd suggest if that's the use from which it was adapted, it was probably done ironically in Hiberno-English. I don't know this, I'm just supposing but the Irish have a history of adopting words from English ironically.

I can't find any connection between gaff and any Irish words I know for home, but it is still very possible that it comes from Irish, even perhaps a lost word for house/home etc.

Miike

The worrying thing about all of this is your friend giving someone anti-psychotic medication. That's a serious no no and could have ended very badly to be frank about it.

Grolschevik

hullaballoo wrote: »

Possibly stems from the usage to refer to very, very low-rent entertainment establishments for the gutter classes. Origins unknown.

I'd suggest if that's the use from which it was adapted, it was probably done ironically in Hiberno-English. I don't know this, I'm just supposing but the Irish have a history of adopting words from English ironically.

I can't find any connection between gaff and any Irish words I know for home, but it is still very possible that it comes from Irish, even perhaps a lost word for house/home etc.

I must have a look tomorrow. Thinking about 'gaffer' and 'gaff/gaffer stick' now, the latter having something to do with boats and/or fishing, I think.

Anyway, apologies for going wildly off topic.

Peregrinus

1. If in doubt, call the ambulance, or take your friend to hospital yourself. If you're with someone who is taking drink or drugs and medical issues arise, it is your responsibility as a friend to look after them, and that means getting help. Far better to make the mistake of taking them to hospital when it turns out not to be necessary than of failing to take them when it turns out that it was.

2. If you're not willing and able to get medical assistance for your drunk/drugged friends when needed, you're not mature enough to be going to cannabis and alcohol parties. Stay at home until you grow up.

3. The guards will not come with the ambulance. The medics at the hospital will not call the guards. Even if they did, being under the influence of drink or drugs is not, in itself, a crime.

4. Never, never, never give someone antipsychotic drugs which have not been prescribed to them. That could end very badly.

I called 999 for an ambulance for a mate a couple of years ago and the guards rocked up too..

dartboardio

Depends.

My cousin had a seizure like fit after taking ecstasy at a party last year and the ambulance showed up and took him away

No guards, but the nurses were giving him a serious lecture when he woke the next morning with tubes all over him.

Im sure they searched him for id/phone or any sharp items but no, they wont be looking for drugs. Theyll be looking for you or your friend to co operate and be well

Obviously its different if they see you have a kilo of cocaine or weed right beside you

But somehow i doubt that if you're asking this question over a few edibles hah.

Victor

Deleted User wrote: »

I called 999 for an ambulance for a mate a couple of years ago and the guards rocked up too..

In those specific circumstances, the ambulance service may have felt the ambulance crew was at risk.

Gloomtastic!

As a father of a teenager, I can tell you a gaffe or gaffer is a house party that both sexes can attend. It’s a big deal in teen circles as usually they are restricted to single sex parties to try and keep things under control.

Carry on.....

Victor

Victor wrote: »

In those specific circumstances, the ambulance service may have felt the ambulance crew was at risk.

No, according to one of the guards, whenever 999 is called they have to attend too..

Kablamo!

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No, according to one of the guards, whenever 999 is called they have to attend too..

This isn't true.

Hoboo

If you or your friends require an ambulance after a few brownies you need to stick to the sandwiches and soda pop for a few more years.

The pills would be more harmful, and your buddy on anti psychotics shouldn't be near drugs or alcohol.

As for aggression after taking weed? Sweating profusely and feeling nauseous, fair enough. Aggressive? Not a chance.

Cant take the OP seriously.

Kablamo!

Kablamo! wrote: »

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No, according to one of the guards, whenever 999 is called they have to attend too..

This isn't true.

That's what the garda told me anyway..

Peregrinus

Hoboo wrote: »

If you or your friends require an ambulance after a few brownies you need to stick to the sandwiches and soda pop for a few more years.

Actually, the friend should probably avoid cannabis permanently. See below.

Hoboo wrote: »

The pills would be more harmful, and your buddy on anti psychotics shouldn't be near drugs or alcohol.

This, very much.

Hoboo wrote: »

As for aggression after taking weed? Sweating profusely and feeling nauseous, fair enough. Aggressive? Not a chance.

Psychotic reactions, (which can include paranoia, delusion, hallucinations, agitation, anger) are rare but not unknown (and for some reason appear to be slightly more common with edibles). When it does happen, it can be quite acute, but usually resolves quickly. If you've had one such cannabis-related episode, you're at a much greater risk of having more.

As I say, this is rare. Most people can use cannabis without harm but there are a few that should avoid it, and the OP's mate may be one of them. And the episode could point to a generally elevated risk of psychotic disorders for the lad even if he never touches dope again, so he should be encouraged to mention this episode to his GP and, generally, to be on the lookout to take good care of his mental health.

GM228

hullaballoo wrote: »

Possibly stems from the usage to refer to very, very low-rent entertainment establishments for the gutter classes. Origins unknown.

Mid 19th century England, derives from a "penny gaff", low cost lower class theatre basically, theatre did not literally mean the theatre, but anywhere such entertainment took place such as the back room of a pub or you guessed it someone's place of residence where the entrance fee was usually a penny.

Cock fighting was popular at these events and they became known as penny gaff's with gaff referring to the metal gaff (a spear basically) attached to the rooster for the fight.

The tern stuck (even when not used specifically to describe a cock fight) for entertainment or house parties and in more modern times just meaning a house irrespective of any party taking place.

Samuel T. Cogley

Taxi - Train Spotting style. You're probably too young for that to be on your radar.

I admire the lack of high horsery I'm afraid I lack the self control. Are ye stupid? Never mind of course ye are you've just done the LC. Call an ambulance and if in doubt flush. Having a death / serious injury on your conscience is not a good thing for your own mental health.

Sorry to clarify I'm only accusing you of the stupidity of youth. I didn't mean to be overly insulting.

Glass fused light

Deleted User wrote: »

That's what the garda told me anyway..

The Garda is pulling your leg. The description of the event may mean that the Garda is there to arrest and hospitalise the person for their own safety or help the crew load the patient. But they don't turn up on routine calls.

Glass fused light

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Taxi - Train Spotting style. You're probably too young for that to be on your radar.

PS don't do drugs.

Grolschevik

GM228 wrote: »

Mid 19th century England, derives from a "penny gaff", low cost lower class theatre basically, theatre did not literally mean the theatre, but anywhere such entertainment took place such as the back room of a pub or you guessed it someone's place of residence where the entrance fee was usually a penny.

Cock fighting was popular at these events and they became known as penny gaff's with gaff referring to the metal gaff (a spear basically) attached to the rooster for the fight.

The tern stuck (even when not used specifically to describe a cock fight) for entertainment or house parties and in more modern times just meaning a house irrespective of any party taking place.

To further the etymology question. (Is there a forum for this sort of thing?)

I tried to embed on desktop, but couldn't remember how. So phone uploads.

The first is from the Oxford Dictionary of English (2010, 3rd edition), the second is from Terry Dolan's Dictionary of Hiberno-English.

I started to type them out, but then decided against the hassle of it!

Hoboo

Peregrinus wrote: »

Actually, the friend should probably avoid cannabis permanently. See below.


This, very much.


Psychotic reactions, (which can include paranoia, delusion, hallucinations, agitation, anger) are rare but not unknown (and for some reason appear to be slightly more common with edibles). When it does happen, it can be quite acute, but usually resolves quickly. If you've had one such cannabis-related episode, you're at a much greater risk of having more.

As I say, this is rare. Most people can use cannabis without harm but there are a few that should avoid it, and the OP's mate may be one of them. And the episode could point to a generally elevated risk of psychotic disorders for the lad even if he never touches dope again, so he should be encouraged to mention this episode to his GP and, generally, to be on the lookout to take good care of his mental health.

OP's mate ate too much, if he drank a bottle of whiskey he'd experience similar. It's not a psychotic reaction, he was out of his mallet. If he wasn't so greedy he would have been fine.

Nothing a fanta and a Mars bar wouldn't sort out.

hullaballoo

Thanks, Dr Nick, but I think Peregrinus has form for knowing what he's talking about.

I'd be inclined to think the OP's friend was one or two steps beyond the fanta/mars bar combo.

Peregrinus

I wasn't present on the occasion, obviously, but the OP describes the lad as exhibiting paranoia, panic attacks, aggression, all of which were calmed by antipsychotics. This does look like a psychotic episode.

At any rate, no reason to take chances. Next time, get medical help. That's what a friend would do. And, following this time, urge the lad to tal to his GP about what happened. That's also what a friend would do. The GP will not cal in the guards.

Peregrinus

GM228 wrote: »

Mid 19th century England, derives from a "penny gaff", low cost lower class theatre basically, theatre did not literally mean the theatre, but anywhere such entertainment took place such as the back room of a pub or you guessed it someone's place of residence where the entrance fee was usually a penny.

Cock fighting was popular at these events and they became known as penny gaff's with gaff referring to the metal gaff (a spear basically) attached to the rooster for the fight.

The tern stuck (even when not used specifically to describe a cock fight) for entertainment or house parties and in more modern times just meaning a house irrespective of any party taking place.

Couple of points:

Gaff isn't derived from penny gaff; it's the other way around. Gaff, origin unknown, entered the language in the mid-18th century with the meaning of a fair. By the early 19th, the meaning had expanded to embrace any public amusement or entertainment, but especially a theatre or music-hall. By the middle of the 19th we have penny-gaff, a place that offers cheap or informal amusement. By the 1930s it could mean a house, flat, shop or pretty well any building, but it did suggest something cheap or modest.

Gaff, the spur worn by a fighting-cock, is unrelated. It comes ultimately from gaff, a boot-hook, which came into English from Portuguese or Spanish in the fourteenth century. This evolved to mean a hooked or barbed stick, and we sill have this sense in the gaff that an angler uses to land a large fish. By the eighteenth century the spike on a spiked spur (as worn by horseriders) was called a gaff, and from this we get the sense that refers to a fighting-cock's spur.

There's no evidence for it, and it doesn't seem very likely, but there's a possible link between the two gaffs in that gaff, the fair, may have been named from gaff, the spiked stick, in that spiked sticks were used to herd and control the livestock brought to a fair and sold there. But it seems a bit of a stretch.

Victor

Peregrinus wrote: »

I wasn't present on the occasion, obviously, but the OP describes the lad as exhibiting paranoia, panic attacks, aggression, all of which were calmed by antipsychotics. This does look like a psychotic episode.

Alternatively, the anti-psychotics had a mere placebo effect and the person was going to calm down anyway.

Peregrinus

Victor wrote: »

Alternatively, the anti-psychotics had a mere placebo effect and the person was going to calm down anyway.

Well, possibly. But that's always a possibility when any therapy for any condition appears to be effective. I wouldn't be banking on this as a mechanism for avoiding confronting more worrying possibilities, such as that the lad actually did have a cannabis-related psychotic episode, which (a) is a real thing, and (b) is not a think you would ever be wise to ignore.

Victor

Victor wrote: »

Alternatively, the anti-psychotics had a mere placebo effect and the person was going to calm down anyway.

That's what I was thinking. Could throw a panadol in his mouth telling him it's an antipsychotic, and if that doesn't start to calm him in a minute or two, call the ambulance. Or if realistically possible, just go in a taxi.

Ambulances aren't exactly calming for the mind. He could be getting control of himself, see that rock up, and panic again thinking it's really serious and he's going to die.

Victor

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, possibly. But that's always a possibility when any therapy for any condition appears to be effective. I wouldn't be banking on this as a mechanism for avoiding confronting more worrying possibilities, such as that the lad actually did have a cannabis-related psychotic episode, which (a) is a real thing, and (b) is not a think you would ever be wise to ignore.

With serious medical matters, even doctors aren't allowed self-diagnose (they might of course make a correct self-diagnosis, but there is a risk that they will omit some symptom(s) or imagine or over-consider other symptom(s)), never mind a bunch of teenage stoners diagnosing each other.

I am in no way suggesting that the issue shouldn't be addressed medically.

Deleted User wrote: »

Ambulances aren't exactly calming for the mind. He could be getting control of himself, see that rock up, and panic again thinking it's really serious and he's going to die.

Possibly. Alternatively he sees 'ooh, actual medical help' and relaxes.

Victor

Victor wrote: »

Possibly. Alternatively he sees 'ooh, actual medical help' and relaxes.

True. What actually happens if someone is having an episode like this? Is there a go to injection that can calm people?

Peregrinus

Deleted User wrote: »

True. What actually happens if someone is having an episode like this? Is there a go to injection that can calm people?

You can always sedate people. But what you're doing there is treating the symptoms. That may be something you need to do to manage the immediate problem or relieve immediate distress, but it mostly does nothing at all to address the cause that gives rise to the symptoms. And of course it's only a short-term fix; sedatives wear off.

Grolschevik

Peregrinus wrote: »

Couple of points:

Gaff isn't derived from

Can you message me or post the sources or references for this? I love this sort of stuff. And if the OED editors say the origin is unsure, then I doubly want it!

Peregrinus

Grolschevik wrote: »

Can you message me or post the sources or references for this? I love this sort of stuff. And if the OED editors say the origin is unsure, then I doubly want it!

I got it from the full-length Oxford English Dictionary - the 20-volume version - which is available online, but only to subscribers. It has extensive notes on the origins and history of words.

gctest50

Victor wrote: »

With serious medical matters, even doctors aren't allowed self-diagnose ...........

Meh snowflakes these days


https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32481442

STB.

There is more conversations on the various type of usage of gaff and gaffes and their origin than those addressing the question posed about a gaffe that happened in someone's gaff


The anti psychotic medicine mixed with alcohol was more dangerous than the temporary paranoia your friend was experiencing by milling a load of space cakes.

The Enbalmer

A friend of mine was given a tablet called Melleril to help him come down off an E session many years ago. He thought and was told it was just the same as valium but it's a highly dangerous antipsychotic that apparently doesn't mix with ecstasy very well at all. Long story short he was worried he was losing his mind for about a week afterwards..panic attacks,heart racing,blurred vision.
He had to get a valium prescription to calm him down and the whole thing shook him up very badly.
Don't take other people's meds especially when mixing with drink and drugs.

Credit Checker Moose

Or they could end up visiting you.

nuac

Mod
As I presume none of the posters here have the appropriate medical qualifications perhaps we can cease giving medical advice

Grolschevik

nuac wrote: »

Mod
As I presume none of the posters here have the appropriate medical qualifications perhaps we can cease giving medical advice

I'm a doctor.


Oh wait, wrong type!

Peregrinus

The greater problem disclosed by this thread is not the giving of medical advice by those unqualified, but rather the giving of actual medicine by those unqualified, surely?

blairbear

As an emergency medicine doctor, I can assure you that we absolutely do not report anyone to the Gardai for being under the influence of drugs. I would be reporting about 40 percent of my patients of a Saturday night if I did so. Even if a patient has a large quantity of drugs on them that we find, we simply call the Gardai and say "these drugs have come into our possession. Please take them away" and do not divulge any patient details.

Someone commented that a nurse was lecturing their intoxicated mate the next morning; of course she was. Doctors and nurses are medicolegally obliged to strongly impress upon patients the ill effects of their behaviour, whether that's drinking irresponsibly or taking drugs. If you put yourself in harms way, then we will express the ramifications of that.

Nobody can possibly comment or give advice here re; treatments for various states of intoxication. I would not ever do so myself without fully assessing a patient.

Victor

blairbear wrote: »

Nobody can possibly comment or give advice here re; treatments for various states of intoxication.

But randomers giving people medication and mixing alcohol and/or drugs (without medical advice) is not healthy, yes?

blairbear

Victor wrote: »

blairbear wrote: »

Nobody can possibly comment or give advice here re; treatments for various states of intoxication.

But randomers giving people medication and mixing alcohol and/or drugs (without medical advice) is not healthy, yes?

Not sure whether you're asking if it or isn't healthy. The "yes?" throws me. Obviously that is a poor idea. I just wanted to clarify the initial query. I never even touched on the above.

GM228

Peregrinus wrote: »

Couple of points:

Gaff isn't derived from penny gaff; it's the other way around.  Gaff, origin unknown, entered the language in the mid-18th century with the meaning of a fair.  By the early 19th, the meaning had expanded to embrace any public amusement or entertainment, but especially a theatre or music-hall.

By the middle of the 19th we have penny-gaff, a place that offers cheap or informal amusement.  By the 1930s it could mean a house, flat, shop or pretty well any building, but it did suggest something cheap or modest.

I didn't mean the word "gaff" itself derived from Penny Gaff, rather gaff in the context enquired about is believed to derive from Penny Gaff and it appears the gaff in Penny Gaff itself derives from gaff in cock fighting as opposed to gaff in the sense of a fair even though gaff as in fair and Penny Gaff are now closely related.

I think modern dictionaries sometimes fail to do their homework properly when dealing with the etymology of words, I wonder do they employ etymologists? Or perhaps they just copy and paste origins from previous editions taking what has previously been published as correct?

Anyway, I'll try do better than the modern common dictionary, the first recorded use of gaff is earlier than the 18th century, it is in fact the mid 16th century - 1753 to be exact.

Whilst not really clear, it is commonly believed to have derived from the Romany word "gav", meaning town/market town.

First recorded in John Poulter, The Discoveries of John Poulter, Alias Baxter.. (Sherbourne 1753) where Gaff is mentioned five times on pages 30, 32, 39 and 42 (35, 36, 44 and 47 of the PDF):-

Come Culls, fhall us pike to the Pufb or Gaff...

<SNIP>

The firft Thing they do at a Gaff, is to look for a Room clear of Company, which the Sailor and Capper immediately take, while the Money Droppers go out to look for a Flat...

<SNIP>

... that is go thirty or forty Miles that Night, towards the next Gaff to fence them...

<SNIP>

Let us pike to the Gaff ; let us go to the Fair. Will you gammon me; will you help me. What Ridge or Lay do you go on in this Gaff or Vile; what Bufinefs do you go on in this Fair or Town

The first recorded use of the word in relation to a fair (or a gathering for gamblers) is early 17th century - 1812 to be exact. It was a "patter flash" word - the language of the thieves of London, see James Hardy Vaux, Memoirs of James Hardy Vaux (W. Clowes 1812), see page 176 (454 of the PDF):-

GAFF, a country fair; also a meeting of gamblers for the purpose of play; any public place of amusement is liable to be called the gaff, when spoken of in flash company who know to what it alludes

Peregrinus wrote: »

Gaff, the spur worn by a fighting-cock, is unrelated.  It comes ultimately from gaff, a boot-hook, which came into English from Portuguese or Spanish in the fourteenth century.  This evolved to mean a hooked or barbed stick, and we sill have this sense in the gaff that an angler uses to land a large fish.  By the eighteenth century the spike on a spiked spur (as worn by horseriders) was called a gaff, and from this we get the sense that refers to a fighting-cock's spur. 

There's no evidence for it, and it doesn't seem very likely, but there's a possible link between the two gaffs in that gaff, the fair, may have been named from gaff, the spiked stick, in that spiked sticks were used to herd and control the livestock brought to a fair and sold there.  But it seems a bit of a stretch.

There is some evidence, 19th century dictionaries seem to link gaff in Penny Gaff with gaff in cock fighting by noting that strictly speaking it means such, why not simply mention the link to fair?

There are also some 19th century writings and newspaper articles which note a link to cock fighting as opposed to a fair, see for example Arthur Pearson 'The execution of Mr. Rat and other thrilling sights you will see in Whitechapel Road' Pearsons's Weekly (London 7th May 1898):-

Inside a Penny Gaff

A legend bearing the words:- “The Execution of Mr. Rat,” catches your eye, and you enter your first penny gaff.

Properly, a gaff is a ring for cock-fighting; and, in the case in question, it is a large wooden cage in which Mr. Rat meets Mr. Ferret in a deadly encounter.

Older dictionaries also show the same, see for example the highly respected Brewer, E. Cobham, Dictionary Of Phrase And Fable (3rd edn, Cassell, Petter, Galpin & Co., London 1900), see page 959 (971 of the PDF):-

Penny Gaff (A). A theatre the admission to which is one penny. Properly a gaff is a ring for cockfighting, a sensational amusement which has been made to yield to sensational dramas of the Richardson type. (Irish, gaf, a hook.)

Whilst various writings and newspapers may have mentioned such a connection, the first dictionary to give etymology for Penny Gaff as a whole was the above (actually it was the 2nd edition published in 1898 but I have no link for that edition - it gave an identical meaning to the above though). Later dictionaries seem to just say related to a fair and nothing more.

The term Penny Gaff seems to have come into use sometime in the late 1840s or early 1850s, in fact in Max Schlesinger Saunterings In And About London (Nathaniel Cooke, London 1853), which is considered one of the most important and in depth writings on them Max did not once mention Gaff anywhere within the 250 pages, he used the original term Penny Theatre suggesting the term was still not widely used by then.

Penny Theatres were also sometimes known as “blood tubs” or “dookeys”, names associated with the Royal Coburg Theatre since 1818 (what is now known as The Old Vic).

Just exactly how they started to become known as Penny Gaffs is quite unclear, however the passing of the Cruelty to Animals Act 1835 and in particular the Cruelty to Animals Act 1849 provides a theory which ties in with the 1898 dictionaries etymology, that they became known as Gaffs in relation to cock fighting in defiance of the above Acts as there was still plenty of blood sports held at the already illegal shows, the term was coined it seems by London's Costermongers, the first recorded mention of Penny Gaff being in 1851.

See Henry Mayhew, London Labour And The London Poor (Vol 1 "Of The Penny Gaff", London 1851):-

In many of the thoroughfares of London there are shops which have been turned into a kind of temporary theatre (admission one penny), where dancing and singing take place every night. Rude pictures of the performers are arranged outside, to give the front a gaudy and attractive look, and at night-time coloured lamps and transparencies are displayed to draw an audience. These places are called by the costers "Penny Gaffs;" and on a Monday night as many as six performances will take place, each one having its two hundred visitors.

The biggest mystery of all however is how the illegal Penny Gaff show evolved into gaff as in one's home, there is no clear evidence of how or why this has happened despite only happening in more modern times. Life is full of mysteries I guess.

Anyway I have totally strayed away from legal discussion, although such gaffs were highly illegal and I did mention two Acts...

No doubt Grolschevik will have enjoyed it though, I know I have, I find etymology nearly as interesting as the law.

nuac

Mod
Really erudite thread. Always interesting to study the development of words, but let's keep some semblance of legal discussion, OK?