Animals are here for us to kill, eat..

MarkY91

dodderangler wrote: »

You should see the Philippines. You literally see the dead animals there in the market. And you just pick what oart you want. I still see breakfast lunch and dinner.
I’m out hunting and I still see a cow as dinner.

Been there 3 times, in every region and not once seen that.

archer22

MarkY91 wrote: »

Been there 3 times, in every region and not once seen that.

And I lived there for years and never seen it...it's 30 to 40 degrees there every day.

Any meat would be rancid and poisonous in a few hours.

There are some spoofers and chancers posting on this thread alright

Greyfox

dodderangler wrote: »

That’s your opinion though. You clearly know nothing of wildlife and the damage certain animals have on other animals.
So comparing something like bullfighting to amuse a crowd against something one person does to protect other animals is just down right stupid.
So well done on that one.

Nonsense and it's silly for you to assume I know nothing. I fully understand why farmers want foxes etc killed but that doesn't make it ok, humans don't automatically have the right to play god. Rats and mice are vermin but rabbits and foxes are not.

gozunda

Greyfox wrote: »

Nonsense and it's silly for you to assume I know nothing. I fully understand why farmers want foxes etc killed but that doesn't make it ok, humans don't automatically have the right to play god. Rats and mice are vermin but rabbits and foxes are not.

What makes rats and mice different from rabbits and foxes in your opinion? Genuine question

archer22

Greyfox wrote: »

Nonsense and it's silly for you to assume I know nothing. I fully understand why farmers want foxes etc killed but that doesn't make it ok, humans don't automatically have the right to play god. Rats and mice are vermin but rabbits and foxes are not.

In fairness most farmers have no issues with them.

Greyfox

gozunda wrote: »

What makes rats and mice different from rabbits and foxes in your opinion? Genuine question

Everyone hates rats and mice. Rabbits and foxes are beautiful creatures. Yes I realise it's not logical but sure it been ok to eat sheep and not ok to eat dogs is about our feelings towards the animal rather than logic.

gozunda

Greyfox wrote: »

Everyone hates rats and mice. Rabbits and foxes are beautiful creatures. Yes I realise it's not logical but sure it been ok to eat sheep and not ok to eat dogs is about our feelings towards the animal rather than logic.

Ok. But no there's no logic in that tbh. You may see one as 'hateful' - the other as 'beautiful' but that's all very subjective tbh. The reason some may see all as vermin is nothing to do with their physical appearance rather the economic damage they can inflict on food production.

It is also true that some think it's ok to eat both sheep and dog - and this depends on local habits and customs. Nothing strange there tbh. We might have eaten spuds, cabbage and bacon as part of our traditional diet - other countries may eat something quite different. The logic and custom relates to all types of food both animal and vegetable tbh.

Greyfox

Greyfox wrote: »

Most meat eaters don't care enough about where there meat comes from and ignore realities like how most chickens live and that meat is too cheap and too much of it is produced. We hope there's no suffering for the animals besides the seconds required for the killing but we would rather not think about the subject rather then caring about wheter or not guidelines are been followed.

I share your concerns which is why I hunt and kill my own meat where possible. Or keep it on my own land and farm it myself where possible. All my Christmas geese for years now have been part of the family up until around Christmas time for example.

Where any of that is not possible I try to source the meat I do buy as ethically as possible. I do not go cheap. I go where I can maximize my ability to know the meat was treated well while it was alive.

It is also not a daily food staple for us. We cut down a bit. 3 days sometimes 4 a week I will make meals with meat involved.

More than that I can not do I think.

Hobosan

ToddyDoody wrote: »

What was Jesus's view of veganism, does anyone know?

We eat the man every Sunday.

dodderangler

Greyfox wrote: »

Nonsense and it's silly for you to assume I know nothing. I fully understand why farmers want foxes etc killed but that doesn't make it ok, humans don't automatically have the right to play god. Rats and mice are vermin but rabbits and foxes are not.

Wrong. Rabbits and foxes are vermin. There is no hunting season for them because they are so widespread and produce too many.
You should probably get your facts correct before making assumptions. You seem to do that a lot

dodderangler

Greyfox wrote: »

Everyone hates rats and mice. Rabbits and foxes are beautiful creatures. Yes I realise it's not logical but sure it been ok to eat sheep and not ok to eat dogs is about our feelings towards the animal rather than logic.

Rabbits and foxes beautiful. But rats and mice are not. I had let rats and they’re smart and gorgeous animals. Foxes are mangy scavenging killing machines. You obviously have no clue on them. And if I showed you a rabbit full of myxomatosis you’d change your mind on beautiful.

dodderangler

dodderangler wrote: »

Foxes are mangy scavenging killing machines.

Only in the wild - but that is true of most animals in the wild really. Many of them look awful. They scrub up well though. There is a German couple near sligo who run an animal sanctuary and they have foxes. And they are possibly some of the most beautiful creatures I have ever seen in person. Worth the visit for them alone - let alone the amazing collection of birds of prey they have.

Uncharted

PainInTheArse wrote: »

Yeah I see where your coming from. When you walk down the meat aisle you don't see dead animals. You just see breakfast ,lunch and dinner.

PITA,yes,that's pretty much the way I see it.

Animals to me are food. That's basically it.

Apologies if I went around the houses trying to convey that.

Enjoyable discussion.

dodderangler

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Only in the wild - but that is true of most animals in the wild really. Many of them look awful. They scrub up well though. There is a German couple near sligo who run an animal sanctuary and they have foxes. And they are possibly some of the most beautiful creatures I have ever seen in person. Worth the visit for them alone - let alone the amazing collection of birds of prey they have.

They’re foxes. They belong nowhere but the wild. No excuses.
And I’ve had birds of prey for falconry. I know they’re beautiful. But in the wrong hands they’re not for people. Plenty of idiots have them. I stopped it because I couldn’t dedicate the time to them and I didn’t want them to suffer because I had no time for them.

YFlyer

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

I'm afraid you're wrong there, D.

Humans have escaped the effects of 'cheap' fuels like petroleum for the last 100 years and coal for another 100 years before that because of the ability of the Oceans to sequester huge quantities of Carbon to keep the atmospheric levels in balance.

The Oceans now have reached the limits of their abilities to sequester any more Carbon so atmospheric levels of Carbon are soaring.

There is now only one single place that can quickly absorb much of that excess Carbon and that's the worlds soils. And even then that ability is limited mainly to grassland soils because of the ability of grassland to convert that excess Carbon to Cellulose and store it first in the grass and then, through both leaf senescence and root exudates, to convert that Carbon to humus in the soils.

Forestry has a place but it is limited by the speed to which it can convert that Carbon to timber and the Carbon it will release again when that timber is burned either as fuels or wildfires which will become more common as rainfall level in summers fall more.

There's some very interesting research coming out this last 12 months about the abilities of grassland soils to store Carbon while vegan crop soils will emit more Carbon than it can sequester. Especially as much of the crops will grow on soils tilled numerous times each year, each time breaking up the soil structure and exposing the humus and soil biomatter to air and degradation and accelerating Carbon losses from those soils.

There's decisions to be made and there's no guarantee that those decisions will fall in the direction you're espousing. Indeed, it would be disastrous in terms of global warming.

What is a vegan crop?

Are you talking about C3 plants?

Buford T. Justice XIX

YFlyer wrote: »

What is a vegan crop?

Are you talking about C3 plants?

Vegetables. They predominately require total ground clearance and nothing else to grow between the plants because they aren't capable of competing with any other plant. Then the ground from the earliest harvested crops is tilled again to grow a second crop, more organic matter breakdown and another sterile seedbed.

The later harvested crops will most likely have no other crop sown so ground will remain bare for an extended period until weeds can germinate to generate ground cover.

dodderangler

dodderangler wrote: »

They’re foxes. They belong nowhere but the wild. No excuses.

I was asking the Sanctuary about that actually. What the history of the foxes was and why they were being kept in captivity.

Seems they got a bad injury from people. Some low lifes attracted them somehow and cornered them and went at them with baseball bats or similar. So they were in a bad way when someone called the Sanctuary.

They nursed them back to health. But during this time they became too domesticated and used to humans. The Santuary felt that if they were released into the wild again therefore - they would be much too inclined to approach humans again then. This poses a risk to those foxes and humans alike - so the ultimate decision was to keep the foxes on the Sanctuary.

That is the distilled version of what they told us - but if you go along yourself and ask you can get the full story and justification for the decision. They - like you - are also of the opinion that where they can return a patient to the wild they will always endeavour to do so. Not least because of cost. They barely make ends meet on the Sanctuary. So any decision to keep an animal - is never made lightly for that reason to.

But the foxes themselves are anything but mangy and horrible. They are - as I said - some of the most beautiful animals I have ever had the joy to meet personally. They are shiny, smooth, glowing, red and black creatures that look healthier and happier than any domestic dog I have met. Whatever they do to look after them - they do it well.

I can not pour praise on the sanctuary or the German Couple (retired wild life biologists both of them) who run it enough to be honest. I have mentioned them many times before - not least because of their help with a certain wild animal I keep myself - and put me in touch with a life long specialist for that particular species of animal who works in German near Frankfurt too.

At some point I also want to look into helping them by giving a bird of prey a home that can not be released for whatever reason. But like you I intend to do it _right_ and so I have not just leapt into it yet like the idiots you mention who just obtain such a creature for the street cred.

dodderangler

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I was asking the Sanctuary about that actually. What the history of the foxes was and why they were being kept in captivity.

Seems they got a bad injury from people. Some low lifes attracted them somehow and cornered them and went at them with baseball bats or similar. So they were in a bad way when someone called the Sanctuary.

They nursed them back to health. But during this time they became too domesticated and used to humans. The Santuary felt that if they were released into the wild again therefore - they would be much too inclined to approach humans again then. This poses a risk to those foxes and humans alike - so the ultimate decision was to keep the foxes on the Sanctuary.

That is the distilled version of what they told us - but if you go along yourself and ask you can get the full story and justification for the decision. They - like you - are also of the opinion that where they can return a patient to the wild they will always endeavour to do so. Not least because of cost. They barely make ends meet on the Sanctuary. So any decision to keep an animal - is never made lightly for that reason to.

But the foxes themselves are anything but mangy and horrible. They are - as I said - some of the most beautiful animals I have ever had the joy to meet personally. They are shiny, smooth, glowing, red and black creatures that look healthier and happier than any domestic dog I have met. Whatever they do to look after them - they do it well.

I can not pour praise on the sanctuary or the German Couple (retired wild life biologists both of them) who run it enough to be honest. I have mentioned them many times before - not least because of their help with a certain wild animal I keep myself - and put me in touch with a life long specialist for that particular species of animal who works in German near Frankfurt too.

At some point I also want to look into helping them by giving a bird of prey a home that can not be released for whatever reason. But like you I intend to do it _right_ and so I have not just leapt into it yet like the idiots you mention who just obtain such a creature for the street cred.

I find it very very hard to believe that someone cornered a fox and a group of them battered it. That sounds like excuse for someone to keep one as a pet. I could easily trap a sparrowhawk and tell someone that it was hurt and can’t be released just for the sake of keeping it

Thelonious Monk

dodderangler wrote: »

I find it very very hard to believe that someone cornered a fox and a group of them battered it. That sounds like excuse for someone to keep one as a pet. I could easily trap a sparrowhawk and tell someone that it was hurt and can’t be released just for the sake of keeping it

isn't that what this lot do basically?

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I was asking the Sanctuary about that actually. What the history of the foxes was and why they were being kept in captivity.

Seems they got a bad injury from people. Some low lifes attracted them somehow and cornered them and went at them with baseball bats or similar. So they were in a bad way when someone called the Sanctuary.

They nursed them back to health. But during this time they became too domesticated and used to humans. The Santuary felt that if they were released into the wild again therefore - they would be much too inclined to approach humans again then. This poses a risk to those foxes and humans alike - so the ultimate decision was to keep the foxes on the Sanctuary.

That is the distilled version of what they told us - but if you go along yourself and ask you can get the full story and justification for the decision. They - like you - are also of the opinion that where they can return a patient to the wild they will always endeavour to do so. Not least because of cost. They barely make ends meet on the Sanctuary. So any decision to keep an animal - is never made lightly for that reason to.

But the foxes themselves are anything but mangy and horrible. They are - as I said - some of the most beautiful animals I have ever had the joy to meet personally. They are shiny, smooth, glowing, red and black creatures that look healthier and happier than any domestic dog I have met. Whatever they do to look after them - they do it well.

I can not pour praise on the sanctuary or the German Couple (retired wild life biologists both of them) who run it enough to be honest. I have mentioned them many times before - not least because of their help with a certain wild animal I keep myself - and put me in touch with a life long specialist for that particular species of animal who works in German near Frankfurt too.

At some point I also want to look into helping them by giving a bird of prey a home that can not be released for whatever reason. But like you I intend to do it _right_ and so I have not just leapt into it yet like the idiots you mention who just obtain such a creature for the street cred.

Afaik it is an offence to trap native wildlife and keep it in captivity. Ok maybe if the animal can't be rehabilitated - but I would question that captivity for a wild animal is always the best solution in these cases.

Seriously though what is it about prople coming to Ireland and setting up animal sanctuaries? Yeah you could argue they are doing a good thing - but the ones I'm thinking of make a living of it. Now many also have independent means as well but I know of around half a dozen who came here with the purpose of doing this. There is also the issue that not all such rescues whether indiginous or otherwise are well run or alwsys have the best concerns of animals in mind imo. They may think they do - but too many have ended up in terrible circumstances for me to look at them with rose tinted glasses. It's an area that needs tightening up imo. I know in some European countries there are strict regulations regarding setting up such enterprises- and I think that make Ireland a handy destination tbh. There was one particular operation locally which were taking in rescues and were later found to be selling the animals. Not saying that all 'rescues' are bad by any means btw - but it can be difficult to determine one from the other under the present system.

dodderangler

dodderangler wrote: »

I find it very very hard to believe that someone cornered a fox and a group of them battered it. That sounds like excuse for someone to keep one as a pet.

That would not fit the profile of the sanctuary or the people who run it from my experience to be honest. Go visit yourself sometime - its worth the trip.

gozunda wrote: »

Seriously though what is it about prople coming to Ireland and setting up animal sanctuaries? Yeah you could argue they are doing a good thing - but the ones I'm thinking of make a living of it.

It is a Sanctuary not some private household - so I guess that must influence the legality of it. So what is an offence for us might not be for them. I do not know the law.

It is run by a couple who retired to Ireland after being life long Wild Life Biologists in Germany. They did not plan to start a sanctuary either. They planned to invest their money into nothing more than a quiet retirement in Sligo.

People in the locality of Sligo just started to hear who they were and started bringing them animals in distress. They started helping out and slowly over time they suddenly realised they were running an Animal Rescue Sanctuary. It does not seem they planned any of it.

The man who I spoke to more than his wife is deeply knowledgable and a ball of charisma too. Lovely guy all around. I go back as often as I can and I support their charity by donating monthly. I recommend a trip there to anyone I can and I have yet to have anyone come back and tell me it was a bad recommendation.

Sheepdish1

dodderangler wrote: »

I find it very very hard to believe that someone cornered a fox and a group of them battered it. That sounds like excuse for someone to keep one as a pet. I could easily trap a sparrowhawk and tell someone that it was hurt and can’t be released just for the sake of keeping it

Really ? Humans can be extremely cruel to animals. I can't speak on behalf the sanctuary but I am surprised the foxes weren't made wild again over time. Maybe they had some injuries that meant they couldn't be released as they wouldn't survive such as blindness.

dodderangler

Sheepdish1 wrote: »

Really ? Humans can be extremely cruel to animals. I can't speak on behalf the sanctuary but I am surprised the foxes weren't made wild again over time. Maybe they had some injuries that meant they couldn't be released as they wouldn't survive such as blindness.

Then do the humane thing and put them down.

dodderangler

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

isn't that what this lot do basically?

No but nice try.

dodderangler

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

isn't that what this lot do basically?

Guess you’ve never seen how quick a fox dies in a hunt. It’s very quick. The chase is the painful part but once one or two hounds catch it it’s death is quick. Gruesome but quick.

Thelonious Monk

dodderangler wrote: »

Guess you’ve never seen how quick a fox dies in a hunt. It’s very quick. The chase is the painful part but once one or two hounds catch it it’s death is quick. Gruesome but quick.

From what I've read they're torn apart by the dogs and its horrific. But I've never been on a hunt and don't get why anyone would partake.

dodderangler

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

From what I've read they're torn apart by the dogs and its horrific. But I've never been on a hunt and don't get why anyone would partake.

They are torn to shreds but fox is long dead after the first dog gets it.
Hounds are huge dogs. The grab and shake the fox it’s pretty yuck death. Fox doesn’t know it’s happened.
Not justifying it but the fox is long dead before the other hounds catch up to the lead dog.

Thelonious Monk

dodderangler wrote: »

They are torn to shreds but fox is long dead after the first dog gets it.
Hounds are huge dogs. The grab and shake the fox it’s pretty yuck death. Fox doesn’t know it’s happened.
Not justifying it but the fox is long dead before the other hounds catch up to the lead dog.

I'll keep my eye on Groupon for a fox hunt experience then

dodderangler

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I'll keep my eye on Groupon for a fox hunt experience then

Illegal now anyway.
They chase fox scent now on a rag. But that doesn’t stop a fox from coming along and getting caught in the crossfire.
I myself will be out later in the fields.

Greyfox

dodderangler wrote: »

Wrong. Rabbits and foxes are vermin. There is no hunting season for them because they are so widespread and produce too many.
You should probably get your facts correct before making assumptions. You seem to do that a lot

No there not. Just because you don't like them doesnt make it ok to kill them. Rabbits that are not wild are a popular pet in Ireland and killing any rabbits for sport is disgusting and cruel. How does a rabbit or fox know that there producing too many young? Killing defenceless animals for sport is an evil act