Cyclists, The Law & What can be done to improve cyclist safety

godtabh

So I came across this evening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvxKFPx-2e4

Lights are clearly red for a long time. Cyclists, not knowing the Garda car is right beside them, pull off breaking the red lights.

What do the Gardai do? Nothing.

With all the bad press last week from VeloCity about how dangerous it is to cycle to Dublin

1. How can cyclists be so stupid?
2. Enforcement is half the issue. Why no enforcement?

If (some) cyclist couldn't be arsed following the law and (some) Gardai couldn't be arsed enforcing something so obviously breaking the law what is the solution to the problem of road safety?

ted1

godtabh wrote: »

So I came across this evening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvxKFPx-2e4

Lights are clearly red for a long time. Cyclists, not knowing the Garda car is right beside them, pull off breaking the red lights.

What do the Gardai do? Nothing.

With all the bad press last week from VeloCity about how dangerous it is to cycle to Dublin

1. How can cyclists be so stupid?
2. Enforcement is half the issue. Why no enforcement?

If (some) cyclist couldn't be arsed following the law and (some) Gardai couldn't be arsed enforcing something so obviously breaking the law what is the solution to the problem of road safety?

While illegal. The cyclists may have ensured that no car was coming.

What are the states for accidents from the above. V drivers using phones , speeding etc

They need to target events that have consequences.

07Lapierre

Running red lights is illegal for all road users. It's that simple.

Pkiernan

Why didn't you think the horn when he went thru the red light?

mfceiling

Pkiernan wrote: »

Why didn't you think the horn when he went thru the red light?

Beeping behind a garda car?

ted1

07Lapierre wrote: »

Running red lights is illegal for all road users. It's that simple.

Thats grand but the thread is about increasing cyclists safety.

Pkiernan

mfceiling wrote: »

Beeping behind a garda car?

Followed up with:

"Excuse me constable, but do your bloody job and arrest that cyclist!"

godtabh

ted1 wrote: »

Thats grand but the thread is about increasing cyclists safety.

Which should also include enforcement of laws that are there to protect all road users!

Sonny noggs

godtabh wrote: »

Which should also include enforcement of laws that are there to protect all road users!

Correct, we need to protect more vulnerable users such as pedestrians.

tomasrojo

The Velo-city bad press was based on the lack of cycling infrastructure, poor road design (from the point of view of cyclists and pedestrians), aggressive drivers and having to mix with motorised traffic more than anything else. It hadn't got much to do with breaking red lights, though that is, of course, to be discouraged, by and large.

rubadub

godtabh wrote: »

1. How can cyclists be so stupid?
2. Enforcement is half the issue. Why no enforcement?

If you 100% confirm you really are not feigning ignorance, and are truly ignorant about this, then I will bother coming back with a detailed reply. I know that junction and it is obvious to me why they did not enforce the law, (clue- they amazingly know what the law actually set out to prevent)

I find it VERY hard to believe a mod of a physics forum would not know the answer to this!! or at least try and come up with an answer.

not knowing the Garda car is right beside them

why do you presume this? They might know fine well gardai are there, just like many pedestrians will do illegal acts with gardai beside them. I have quite deliberately broken the law on my bicycle many times in front of gardai who have often given me nods/waves of approval for what I am doing.

CapnHex

I think what has happened here is that the cyclists have got ahead of the traffic on the 4 way pedestrian green lights. A number of newer pedestrian lights also include bicycle green, at the same time as the pedestrian green (perhaps not at this junction). I'm a bit confused by the one at Alfie Byrne / East Wall junction.

CapnHex

I think what has happened here is that the cyclists have got ahead of the traffic on the 4 way pedestrian green lights. A number of newer pedestrian lights also include bicycle green, at the same time as the pedestrian green (perhaps not at this junction). I'm a bit confused by the one at Alfie Byrne / East Wall junction.

godtabh

rubadub wrote: »

If you 100% confirm you really are not feigning ignorance, and are truly ignorant about this, then I will bother coming back with a detailed reply. I know that junction and it is obvious to me why they did not enforce the law, (clue- they amazingly know what the law actually set out to prevent)

I find it VERY hard to believe a mod of a physics forum would not know the answer to this!! or at least try and come up with an answer.


why do you presume this? They might know fine well gardai are there, just like many pedestrians will do illegal acts with gardai beside them. I have quite deliberately broken the law on my bicycle many times in front of gardai who have often given me nods/waves of approval for what I am doing.

Gardai aren't there to pick and chose which laws they enforce.

What does a mod of the Physics form got to do with it? Or that I'm a mod on the engineering form?

I also know the junction, traveling through it every day. That junction has 2 reported incidents involving cars and another on its approach involving a cyclists. Complacency plays a big role in accidents.

Single controlled junctions are a great way of improving VRU safety.

Duckjob

godtabh wrote: »

So I came across this evening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvxKFPx-2e4

Lights are clearly red for a long time. Cyclists, not knowing the Garda car is right beside them, pull off breaking the red lights.

What do the Gardai do? Nothing.

With all the bad press last week from VeloCity about how dangerous it is to cycle to Dublin

1. How can cyclists be so stupid?
2. Enforcement is half the issue. Why no enforcement?

If (some) cyclist couldn't be arsed following the law and (some) Gardai couldn't be arsed enforcing something so obviously breaking the law what is the solution to the problem of road safety?

You seem to be drawing a link between cyclist fatalities and what you saw above.

Yes, doing this is not legal. However, from a safety point of view -

I don't remember any cyclist fatality in the last couple of years being linked to such an action. I do remember more than one fatality caused by cyclist taking off from the light at the same time as the car traffic and being crushed by a vehicle turning left into them.

While I don't do it, as a cyclist there's a specific safety reason why you would want to get going early through a junction ahead of motorised traffic. In some more cycle friendly countries, there's a separate light that goes green for cyclists a bit before the car one, for exactly that same reason.

Just for context, when was the last time you cycled in Dublin (or any city) traffic ?

ted1

godtabh wrote: »

Gardai aren't there to pick and chose which laws they enforce.
/quote]

They have limited resources, they pick and choose on a daily basis.

Wishbone Ash

Duckjob wrote: »

....Just for context, when was the last time you cycled in Dublin (or any city) traffic ?

He cycles in Dublin very regularly.

magicbastarder

godtabh wrote: »

What does a mod of the Physics form got to do with it?

if you understand the laws of physics, you must understand the law in general, maybe? i dunno.

i also know that junction, it's on my commute. i can't see a reason why it would be safer for a cyclist to run a red; it's quite possible they did so by going through a pedestrian green light.
i have never once had cause to think at that junction that i'd be safer going through the red. quite the opposite.

and finally, it takes some moxie to run a red right in front of a garda car. which might show they're either showing a little contempt for the gardai, or their observation is lacking.

magicbastarder

Duckjob wrote: »

You seem to be drawing a link between cyclist fatalities and what you saw above.

that's a hell of a stretch, based on a rereading of what he actually posted.

Duckjob

magicbastarder wrote: »

that's a hell of a stretch, based on a rereading of what he actually posted.

Maybe it was a mistake to use the word fatalities, but OP used "cyclist safety" in the thread title and fatalities/injuries are after all a function of the general level of cyclist safety.

The OP seems to be linking the current level of cyclist safety directly to what was portrayed in the video. However, maybe I misunderstood the intention - if so I'm sure the OP can clarify.

If we are to set the legal aspect aside for a moment, I would argue, that as junctions are arguably the most highly dangerous part of Irish roads for cyclists, that early jumping (with adequate observation) of a red at a junction to help get clear of the junction before the cars/lorries behind them could be on balance safer for a cyclist.

The above is not an endorsement of that action. It's illegal as the law stands now so I it would be perfectly reasonable if the garda car had pulled them over for it.

As regards the enforcement I think its well agreed there's a massive lack of enforcement of traffic laws on the roads. I think on balance cyclists would benefit hugely from a much greater enforcement across the board, even if it meant being nabbed for transgressions like this.

Breezer

I'm going to preface this by stating that I commute to work daily on a bike, that I don't own a car but did for many years, and I still drive on a semi regular basis.

I don't agree with anyone, regardless of mode of transport, breaking red lights. However, as has been stated on this and other threads many times, there is a difference between someone doing so in a car and doing so on a bike. The former is far more likely to kill or seriously injure someone.

That does not mean breaking reds on bikes is correct. You could potentially hurt someone who is not expecting you to do something illegal. There are most definitely reckless cyclists who cycle at speed through pedestrian lights; it's still safer than driving a car through them but it's not on. Less importantly but annoyingly, red light jumpers often cycle past me patiently waiting there, only for me to have to move out into traffic to overtake them very shortly afterwards, sometimes for 2 or 3 lights in a row (grumble grumble.)

Purely in terms of improving cycle safety, there are limited resources and focusing on cyclists breaking red lights isn't going to deliver bang for the taxpayer's buck. Focusing on car drivers breaking red lights would deliver far more. Focusing on building proper segregated Dutch-style cycle infrastructure, removing cyclists from this picture entirely, would be even better.

That said, I don't see any excuses for the Garda in this video. They must have clearly seen in happening and then had time to drive past the offenders at a leisurely pace. Of course, they do the same thing with motorists: there's videos on threads here showing this.

Breezer

Duckjob wrote: »

If we are to set the legal aspect aside for a moment, I would argue, that as junctions are arguably the most highly dangerous part of Irish roads for cyclists, that early jumping (with adequate observation) of a red at a junction to help get clear of the junction before the cars/lorries behind them could be on balance safer for a cyclist

Advanced stopping lines (if clearly marked as "bike boxes") help with this but drivers block them all the time. Enforcement of this would help also but it's probably about as practical as targeting cyclists running red lights, i.e. it isn't. If a Garda happens to see it they should issue a ticket though, in my opinion (with some discretion for those who genuinely get stuck in it as a light goes red when they were past it or something. This does happen for reasons beyond the driver's control, it happened me last week in a car despite me being particularly mindful of it as it's a pet peeve).

Incidentally, there was one I came across a while ago that had the bike symbol painted in the white lines marking the pedestrian crossing. I was aiming for this as someone was crossing. Thankfully nothing happened as I saw her and stopped short of it but whoever signed off on that...

DaveyDave

It's not worth the time/paperwork, unfortunately. The Gardai don't have time to stop every illegal activity and those that are more serious end up as suspended sentences.

Wishbone Ash

Breezer wrote: »

.....That does not mean breaking reds on bikes is correct. You could potentially hurt someone who is not expecting you to do something illegal....

In fairness, many of the gripes of motorists is that they could, through no fault of their own, maim or kill a cyclist who has broken a red light.

Regardless of who has right of way, 99.9% of road users would not like to be involved in a fatal accident.

Breezer

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

In fairness, many of the gripes of motorists is that they could, through no fault of their own, maim or kill a cyclist who has broken a red light.

Oh I agree. I think cyclists who break reds are behaving like selfish muppets. I still don't think an enforcement drive on cyclists breaking red lights is a particularly practical or efficient way of increasing cycle safety though. Proper infrastructure is.

AndrewJRenko

godtabh wrote: »

Gardai aren't there to pick and chose which laws they enforce.
.

So presumably, you expect every Garda to stop every one of the four out of five motorists that break speed limits ( iRSA Speed Survey) every time they leave the Garda Station?

We’re gonna need a bigger notebook.

Pinch Flat

I’ve seen the Gardai do this with motorists as well. I pass the courts at park gate street every morning. Coming through the lights at the bus garage and the road beside the courts are notorious red light breaking areas. Never seen anyone pulled in.

Breaking a red light is just not considered serious. It’s all down to enforcement and knowing that you’ve very little chance of being caught and fined.

AndrewJRenko

ted1 wrote: »

Thats grand but the thread is about increasing cyclists safety.

If we want to reduce the death toll on the roads, the Gardai should be focused on getting motorists to slow down, put their phones down and put their pints down. Every Garda hour spent chasing cyclists is an hour NOT spent reducing the death toll on the roads.

beauf

There is evidence to suggest that enforcement of minor wrongdoing has a substantial effect on major wrong doing. Zero tolerance in effect. In that way enticement of one thing has an event on other things otherwise unrelated.

Not enforcing minor stuff sets a tone. So while stopping red light breaking might not have an immediate effect on accidents. Will it have an effect eventually. I believe so.

Statistics show that cycling accidents do not come from red light breaking often. But it doesn't mean there are no accidents it even deaths from red light breaking.

07Lapierre

ted1 wrote: »

Thats grand but the thread is about increasing cyclists safety.

Stopping at Red lights is safer for everyone. Having said that, i do think we should have cyclist specific lights at every junction that go green a few seconds before the "Main" light to allow cyclists to move off before cars. This would make the actions of the cyclists shown in the video legal.

beauf

Anywhere I've seen cyclist specific lights in Dublin they are ignored.

magicbastarder

there's a set of cyclist specific lights i usually ignore - not too far from where the video at the start of the thread was shot. it's outbound on the rock road; there's an offroad cycle path with cyclist lights, which passes the butler's pantry. largely because i turn right up newtownpark avenue, i stay in the road, rather than veering out from the cycle path to make that turn.

Pinch Flat

So looks like the Idaho stop or the dutch idea of proceeding on red is one solution.

https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2012/10/25/cycling-past-red-lights-its-legal-in-the-netherlands/

Could work for motorists as well.

Chips Lovell

Budawanny

Weepsie wrote: »

Hands up, I broke a red this morning. It was leaving my estate, and if I'm on my Carbon road bike, it does not seem to trigger the coil whatsoever. I'm assuming the dynamo or steel frame of the other bikes I have does something. It's a PITA.

yeah its an induction loop sensor and carbon bikes often don't contain enough metal to complete the loop ( they sensors usually can be calibrated and often are only calibrated to cars)

beauf

Theres a light on my route thats not triggered by my steel bike either. I assume it a proximity sensor of some sort.

magicbastarder

beauf wrote: »

Theres a light on my route thats not triggered by my steel bike either. I assume it a proximity sensor of some sort.

or maybe just timed and not triggered?
though i guess you wouldn't mention it if it was on a predictable timer.

Tenzor07

I think i'll post up on the Motors forum videos of me driving the car at the speed limit on the M50 and other roads and show how many people motor past me at speed...

After all speed kills, and those who break the posted limits should be prosecuted..

beauf

magicbastarder wrote: »

or maybe just timed and not triggered?
though i guess you wouldn't mention it if it was on a predictable timer.

Excatly.

I've waited 5 mins out of curiosity and nothing.
Generally by then a car has come, or a Luas and triggered it.

ED E

godtabh wrote: »

Gardai aren't there to pick and chose which laws they enforce.

They are and do.

Thats why we need a municipal police force. AGS will never stoop to doing minor jobs.

Chips Lovell

It's a resourcing issue as much as anything. The size of the Garda Traffic Corps fell from 1,200 to 700 during the recession. And there's no sign of it being replenished yet. Last year it was down to 640.

This year, most of the new recruits are going into tackling gangland crime.

beauf

I don't believe that. The lack of enforcement has been ongoing issue long before any recession.

Its both a habitual/cultural thing within the organisation, which goes hand in hand, with the how the judicial system undermines them.

its a system thats broken. How broken is impossible to know due to how the stats are manipulated.

Chips Lovell

Don't get me wrong. Enforcement was never great. But it's gotten noticeably worse since the Traffic Corps was gutted. And it's had an impact. People know now that there's little or no chance of being caught for breaking lights or driving in bus lanes etc.

beauf

its not simply road offences. Burglaries and a whole range of other offences are similarly ignored. I've seen it since the 80's.

I will say it seems to be station dependant. I hear from other people their local station has much better response some of the ones I've had experience of. Like one does not respond or responds many hours later, the other has someone there in a few minutes.

droidus

I think we can all agree that since there seems to be limited resources it is important to prioritise enforcement.

It follows that the clear priority should be around preventing behaviours which are most likely to cause serious injury or loss of life.

These behaviours are primarily dangerous or careless driving, use of mobile devices whilst driving, speeding etc. followed by driving without insurance, tax and so on.

Focussed enforcement in these areas have the most potential to improve the safety of cyclists as well as motorists and pedestrians.

Cyclists breaking lights may occasionally cause an accident and its clearly very annoying for some - but it is so far down the list that it's practically subterranean.

magicbastarder

ED E wrote: »

They are and do.

Thats why we need a municipal police force. AGS will never stoop to doing minor jobs.

i mentioned here about pointing out a truck with bald tyres to a garda, in full knowledge that if i'd pointed out it was parked half on a footpath, he'd have disregarded it.
parking on footpaths is so endemic in this city that people feel entitled to do so, and would moan incredibly if they were prevented from doing so. but it's illegal.

beauf

droidus wrote: »

...
Focused enforcement in these areas have the most potential to improve the safety of cyclists as well as motorists and pedestrians....

Things aren't always logical.

If you wear a helmet and safety gear cars drive closer to you.

If you have L plate up, people have less patience with you.

droidus

Sure, but generally, focussed enforcement deters the behaviour you want to decrease.

odyssey06

droidus wrote: »

Sure, but generally, focussed enforcement deters the behaviour you want to decrease.

Focused enforcement or actual enforcement?

Focus is one thing but at the moment the difference seems to be between what actually ever gets enforced and what doesn't.
Focused enforcement is directing specific\extra resources or time on particular offences.

If the thing happens right in front of you, enforce the law.

AndrewJRenko

droidus wrote: »

Sure, but generally, focussed enforcement deters the behaviour you want to decrease.

Great, so let's focus enforcement on the motorists who kill 2 or 3 people each week on the roads and maim many more. That would actually save lives.

droidus

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Great, so let's focus enforcement on the motorists who kill 2 or 3 people each week on the roads and maim many more. That would actually save lives.

Exactly my point. Focus on the behaviour that kills and mains.