Disgraceful [Mod: Naval Service Manning Shortages]

Psychlops

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/crew-shortage-makes-naval-service-take-two-vessels-out-of-operation-1.3940732

roadmaster

Psychlops wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/crew-shortage-makes-naval-service-take-two-vessels-out-of-operation-1.3940732

Should park them up outside the central bank the public might ask questions if they are visible rather than hidden in the naval base

Manic Moran

[mod]Warning issued for dumping a link without context or commentary.[/mod]

sparky42

It sucks but lets not act like we're the only ones that have faced such issues, the RN had several of it's escort fleet laid up due to manpower issues a few years ago, just last month there was a story that one of the RAN frigates has been out of the water for over a year due to manpower issues.

Given that the Peacocks were effectively sitting in the Basin for an extended period already I wonder why it's one of them and Eithne?

deRanged

I'd guess they're keeping one in service for inshore work. You'd have to wonder about the planned purchase of the next ship, if they can't crew the ones they have now.
There's also going to be a huge loss of skills, and they take a long time to build back up.

Larbre34

National service is the only answer long-term.

Yes we need a lean, well paid, well motivated PDF, but every young person of sufficient capacity should do military service (or failing that community or charitable service) in their first 25 years. Then there should be a week or two of service each year until say 50 years of age, paid much as jury duty.

It would go a long way towards covering leave periods etc in the PDF as well as equipping civilians with very good technical and soft skills.

Psychlops

Manic Moran wrote: »

[mod]Warning issued for dumping a link without context or commentary.[/mod]

Apologies.

mikeym

Larbre34 wrote: »

National service is the only answer long-term.

Yes we need a lean, well paid, well motivated PDF, but every young person of sufficient capacity should do military service (or failing that community or charitable service) in their first 25 years. Then there should be a week or two of service each year until say 50 years of age, paid much as jury duty.

It would go a long way towards covering leave periods etc in the PDF as well as equipping civilians with very good technical and soft skills.

Its a pity they neglected the RDF and the Naval Reserve because back in the day Reservists went to sea which helped get ships to sea.

expectationlost

Minister denies Naval Service ships sidelined due to staff shortage https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/minister-denies-naval-service-ships-sidelined-due-to-staff-shortage-1.3948071

Two Naval Service ships were taken out of service last week for routine maintenance and not because of crew shortages, Minister of State with special responsibility for Defence Paul Kehoe has insisted.

Media reports last week, including a report in The Irish Times, that the LE Eithne and the LE Orla were taken off patrol duty due to crew shortages were “inaccurate reporting”, he declared.

“I got a very extensive briefing from the flag officer commanding the Naval Service, Cmdr Mick Malone, this morning and there are no ships currently tied up because of manpower issues.

“There are ships tied up because of routine maintenance and that was inaccurate reporting last week,” said Mr Kehoe when asked about crew shortages at a commissioning ceremony at Naval Base HQ at Haulbowline.

except theres a photo of the FOCNS news letter that says it was because of the crew shortage
https://twitter.com/BerryCathal/status/1147498760941047808
and their press office confirmed it

although the Irish Examiner who had this story first on the 28th of June says
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/two-naval-vessels-docked-due-to-ongoing-personnel-challenges-933471.html

Both the LÉ Eithne and LÉ Ciara were due for major refits, but according to a source will receive “minor maintenance to achieve a certain readiness level” in the event they need to be redeployed during a major emergency.

but the Commodore wouldn't say it was crew shortage unless it was crew shortage...


spin from the politician

expectationlost

kehoe still trying to contradict the commodore https://twitter.com/campaign4kehoe/status/1147593958282997760

Atlantic Dawn

Our biggest resource we can manage on our own while within the contraints of the EU and we can't even finance a navy to look after it, you couldn't make it up. Do we still have a ship in the med dedicated to carrying financial migrants, would it not be cheaper to fly them to Dublin?

Alkers

mikeym wrote: »

Its a pity they neglected the RDF and the Naval Reserve because back in the day Reservists went to sea which helped get ships to sea.

They still do but have suffered massively due to recruitment embargo during the last recession and a lack of resources and investment since

riffmongous

Larbre34 wrote: »

National service is the only answer long-term.

Yes we need a lean, well paid, well motivated PDF, but every young person of sufficient capacity should do military service (or failing that community or charitable service) in their first 25 years. Then there should be a week or two of service each year until say 50 years of age, paid much as jury duty.

It would go a long way towards covering leave periods etc in the PDF as well as equipping civilians with very good technical and soft skills.

I know a lot of people who had to do it (Austria) and for the vast majority it was a total waste of time, sitting around doing f'all is how it was repeatedly described. Nothing useful learned in most cases, especially for those who wanted to go to university it was a wasted year. (Austrian army is non professional but also badly funded, it seems worse in a way since they actually have more gear but can't afford to use it, conscripts or not)

Charitable service seems a bit better but it depends on how well funded the particular group is

Atlantic Dawn

riffmongous wrote: »

I know a lot of people who had to do it (Austria) and for the vast majority it was a total waste of time, sitting around doing f'all is how it was repeatedly described. Nothing useful learned in most cases, especially for those who wanted to go to university it was a wasted year. (Austrian army is non professional but also badly funded, it seems worse in a way since they actually have more gear but can't afford to use it, conscripts or not)

Charitable service seems a bit better but it depends on how well funded the particular group is

With Austria having no seaside it would be like the most important point of your day guarding your bed from daylight.

riffmongous

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

With Austria having no seaside it would be like the most important point of your day guarding your bed from daylight.

Not sure exactly what your point is, but they do have an air force that's a massive drain and part of an acquisition corruption scandal instead

roadmaster

expectationlost wrote: »

kehoe still trying to contradict the commodore https://twitter.com/campaign4kehoe/status/1147593958282997760

How is this man afforded a ministry

sparky42

roadmaster wrote: »

How is this man afforded a ministry

Because the General Public don't care enough to make it an issue sadly.

expectationlost

roadmaster wrote: »

How is this man afforded a ministry

well he isn't Varadkar is still the Minister for Defence

Larbre34

Larbre34 wrote: »

National service is the only answer long-term.
....

It would go a long way towards covering leave periods etc in the PDF as well as equipping civilians with very good technical and soft skills.

Strange view.
We have many civilians with very decent technical and soft skills. I don't think p1ssing about in the army or navy for a few weeks would do much for many of us really.

Psychlops

The Austrian AF have Typhoons that they can only afford to fly a few times.

In fact they are phasing them out for the Gripen or F-16.

https://warisboring.com/austria-has-no-business-flying-these-high-performance-fighters/

riffmongous

Psychlops wrote: »

The Austrian AF have Typhoons that they can only afford to fly a few times.

In fact they are phasing them out for the Gripen or F-16.

https://warisboring.com/austria-has-no-business-flying-these-high-performance-fighters/

That whole business stinks to the high heavens

expectationlost

Kehoe still spinning https://twitter.com/RTENewsAtOne/status/1148221113878679554 did kehoe get a letter from the commodore that 2 ships were being not operated because of crew shortage, even if he also got a letter to say maintenance would be carried out on them?

Larbre34

roadmaster wrote: »

How is this man afforded a ministry

The thing is, he kinda isn't.

Kehoe is a Minister of State that does not sit at the Cabinet table, the Minister for Defence is a certain Leo Varadkar TD.

Now my personal opinion of Kehoe is bad, he is as has been said, an empty suit, (very bad suits at that) that seems to do nothing much except turn up for photo ops - but, he may not be getting the information a full cabinet Minister might get, in which case its only partly his fault.

Its time to return Defence to a full position at Cabinet, not held in token stead by the Taoiseach, but instead by a dedicated strong Minister with teeth and power over his budget. I know there is a limit of 14 for the Cabinet, so I would merge or reallocate Rural and Community Affairs or Culture and Heritage as I don't believe 2 full portfolios are warranted there.

roadmaster

Larbre34 wrote: »

The thing is, he kinda isn't.

Kehoe is a Minister of State that does not sit at the Cabinet table, the Minister for Defence is a certain Leo Varadkar TD.

Now my personal opinion of Kehoe is bad, he is as has been said, an empty suit, (very bad suits at that) that seems to do nothing much except turn up for photo ops - but, he may not be getting the information a full cabinet Minister might get, in which case its only partly his fault.

Its time to return Defence to a full position at Cabinet, not held in token stead by the Taoiseach, but instead by a dedicated strong Minister with teeth and power over his budget. I know there is a limit of 14 for the Cabinet, so I would merge or reallocate Rural and Community Affairs or Culture and Heritage as I don't believe 2 full portfolios are warranted there.

Is he not have what they use to call a super junior minister which allows him to sit a cabinet without being a full minister?

Larbre34

Augeo wrote: »

Strange view.
We have many civilians with very decent technical and soft skills. I don't think p1ssing about in the army or navy for a few weeks would do much for many of us really.

Hardly strange, its a model of military service around the world that all young people give a year or two of a contribution to their nations at a young age and then keep their skills topped up with a week or two or weekend camps each year for their working lives.

We do have many civilians with good skills certainly, but one of the selling points of national service is the pooling of people from different backgrounds and skill levels to learn as much from each other as from military instruction.

You're entitled to disagree of course.

Larbre34

roadmaster wrote: »

Is he not have what they use to call a super junior minister which allows him to sit a cabinet without being a full minister?

Quite right, he is.

No excuse for the collective shytshow they are running either way.

sparky42

It would be politically untenable for a "National Service" within current Irish politics and even if it wasn't you'd still need a massive budget increase to even handle it with little return for the DF.

expectationlost

Is Kehoe saying the Commodore of the Navy wasn't telling the truth here ? https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/minister-denies-naval-service-ships-sidelined-due-to-staff-shortage-1.3948071

AbusesToilets

Pretty sorry state of affairs for a country to not have the Minister for Defense as one of the top spots in government.

Del2005

Larbre34 wrote: »

Hardly strange, its a model of military service around the world that all young people give a year or two of a contribution to their nations at a young age and then keep their skills topped up with a week or two or weekend camps each year for their working lives.

We do have many civilians with good skills certainly, but one of the selling points of national service is the pooling of people from different backgrounds and skill levels to learn as much from each other as from military instruction.

You're entitled to disagree of course.

The majority of countries are moving away from conscription and working towards a voluntary military, that way they get people who want to be military not people who are forced to be in the military

Poulgorm

I went on a visit to Spike Island yesterday: 5 Irish naval ships were tied up. Does that mean that there were none at sea? (I don't know how many naval ships we have).

roadmaster

Poulgorm wrote: »

I went on a visit to Spike Island yesterday: 5 Irish naval ships were tied up. Does that mean that there were none at sea? (I don't know how many naval ships we have).

9 ships with 1 in dry dock leaves 3 ships patrolling Sure what could go wrong!

expectationlost

expectationlost wrote: »

Is Kehoe saying the Commodore of the Navy wasn't telling the truth here ? https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/minister-denies-naval-service-ships-sidelined-due-to-staff-shortage-1.3948071

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/internal-documents-show-frustration-over-naval-service-ships-controversy-1.3983323

Problems started on June 26th when the Irish Examiner asked the Defence Forces if the ships were being tied up due to manpower shortages.

so the Examiner had thee story before the newsletter was posted https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/two-naval-vessels-docked-due-to-ongoing-personnel-challenges-933471.html

mikeym

From October 2018 but you can see the delusion.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/defence-forces-chief-says-no-crisis-despite-pay-and-morale-problems-37379413.html

Larbre34

Larbre34 wrote: »

National service is the only answer long-term.

Yes we need a lean, well paid, well motivated PDF, but every young person of sufficient capacity should do military service (or failing that community or charitable service) in their first 25 years. Then there should be a week or two of service each year until say 50 years of age, paid much as jury duty.

It would go a long way towards covering leave periods etc in the PDF as well as equipping civilians with very good technical and soft skills.

What a waste to have young people do!

mikeym

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/simple-steps-could-quickly-stabilise-defence-forces-crisis-1.3984020?fbclid=IwAR0bvlhUZ2iu6EoRZQJxoXb4Jlbn9ftRh9_IGr_S6-XogOVxSRSSBXbe9Dc

Staff from the Marine Institute receive an additional €270 gross per day while at sea, personnel from the Sea Fisheries Protection Authority receive an additional €105 tax-free per day and officers from the Revenue Commissioners maritime section receive an additional €75 tax-free per day. At €49 before tax per day for Naval Service personnel is it any wonder they’re leaving in droves when their counterparts are earning four or five times more?

This is why people leave the navy. Most only get €21 a day after tax.