Storage Heating or Gas

Buzwaldo

Trying to buy a 2 bedroom apartment in Dublin, have done a bit of looking & narrowed it down to a few live contenders to place an offer on. One has natural gas boiler & radiators, , another has electric storage heating and dual rate electricity.
I'm not mad on storage heaters, but otherwise it's a nice apartment and area (as is the one with gas heating).
Question is, how much weight (money) if any, should I factor for the difference in heating systems, all else being equal?. Or a I worrying about very little?
Thanks in advance.

raxy

If both apartments are equal I'd say gas. I had storage heaters in an apartment I rented & hated them. The apartment would be too hot during the day, while id be in work, but by night time would be getting cold. You also can't just turn them on if you get a cold day.
I would also think gas would be the cheaper option to run. My gas use in a 3 bed house for the year wouldn't cover a month with storage heating in a 2 bed apartment

Del2005

If the only difference is gas or storage I'd go with gas. As said storage is too hot during the day, I had 30C in my apartment 1 day, and too cold at night, still had to use the blow heater part later on after 30C.

Even checking the weather forecast is no good as they always give the worse option so will promise rain/cloudy and it could be a clear bright sunny day.

ercork

I would agree. Storage heaters offer much less control of temperature than gas and also cost a fair bit more to operate. Also if you're the sort of person who is out in the day time and is mostly home evenings and weekends they are very wasteful.

However If you end up buying the storage heater apartment it wouldn't be the end of the world. You could replace the storage heaters with either on demand heaters or an air to air heat pump.

Del2005

ercork wrote: »

I would agree. Storage heaters offer much less control of temperature than gas and also cost a fair bit more to operate. Also if you're the sort of person who is out in the day time and is mostly home evenings and weekends they are very wasteful.

However If you end up buying the storage heater apartment it wouldn't be the end of the world. You could replace the storage heaters with either on demand heaters or an air to air heat pump.

I can't see many management companies allowing you to mount that on their walls.

NSAman

Del2005 wrote: »

I can't see many management companies allowing you to mount that on their walls.

There are no external heat pump air conditioners/heat pumps nowadays....

Personally, Gas is much nicer...I agree with everyone else

Askthe EA

Gas. All day long.

ercork

Del2005 wrote: »

I can't see many management companies allowing you to mount that on their walls.

Yeah, you would probably need a bit of balcony space for one.

shanec1928

ercork wrote: »

Yeah, you would probably need a bit of balcony space for one.

of which usually belongs to the management company and not you..

SozBbz

I have storage heating. Its annoying but there are more modern options and its possible you may be able to improve upon whats there if you've a bit to spend.

Gas is generally regarded as preferable however as we move away from fossil fuels, I fully expect advancements in electric heating solutions. Relatively speaking, they may become cheaper when compared to gas than the pricing at the moment.

bikeman1

Having lived in an apartment with storage heaters for over 3 years and one very cold winter (2010), I vowed never to live in a place with electric storage heaters again. Massive bills, crap heat, hard to control heat and then a requirement to supplement with a fire and or electric plug in heaters.

If I saw a place with them when I was viewing, I would nearly discount the place straight away. My place has a gas central heating system and it barely needs to be on and the place is warm.

o1s1n

I have a similar apartment with storage heaters, they are so bad I don't use them anymore and have an electric stove and a few panel heaters instead. The storage heaters are just a waste of time.

AlmightyCushion

bikeman1 wrote: »

Having lived in an apartment with storage heaters for over 3 years and one very cold winter (2010), I vowed never to live in a place with electric storage heaters again. Massive bills, crap heat, hard to control heat and then a requirement to supplement with a fire and or electric plug in heaters.

If I saw a place with them when I was viewing, I would nearly discount the place straight away. My place has a gas central heating system and it barely needs to be on and the place is warm.

In fairness, that is probably because the place you are living now is better insulated and more airtight than the place with storage heaters.

I would be very wary of any place with storage heaters but if I could be satisfied it was well insulated and relatively air tight I would consider it.

cgcsb

Gas. If you want to go fancy you can even install underfloor gas fired heating. Storage heaters are a cold and stressful life. Still paying the electricity bills from when I used to have them.

ercork

shanec1928 wrote: »

of which usually belongs to the management company and not you..

Do you think a management company would object to one of them on a balcony?

Mad_maxx

Gas every time, never mind the cost of bills, electric storage is a clear sign that costs were cut during construction where possible

No apartment should be on someone's short list if it has electric storage heating

Buzwaldo

Thanks all for the replies.
Kinda what I felt myself but wanted other opinions.
Apartment and complex seem high spec enough to me, apart from the heating.
Up in the air a bit, but I reckon if we get one with storage heaters, we’ll probably change for modern, on demand, controllable heaters.
I reckon I’ll attribute a 5-10K advantage to natural gas system in my valuation calculations.

cgcsb

I'd also add that regardless of what you chose, you do have the option of insulating your walls from the inside, lots of people do this anyway if your neighbours are noisey cnuts. Som apartments you can change the windows in also, but depends on the building.

Buzwaldo

Yeah, grand if the rooms are big, but 2 bed Dublin apartment where I’m looking, rooms can be small enough. Not mad on losing another few cms all around to dry lining (unless you had a thinner option in mind?)

LollipopJimmy

Cooking on gas is also way easier for temp control, might be a small thing but worth considering.

gibgodsman

Storage Heating myself, I find it keeps the apartment much warmer than Gas heating. The Night Time rates are great, only about €75-100 extra every 2 months when in winter. I put the input to the lowest as well as the output and turn the output up when I need more heat, never ever cold during winter and just turn it completely off in summer as Its so warm in an Apartment anyway

chicorytip

ercork wrote:

Do you think a management company would object to one of them on a balcony?

Never mind what they think. A management company has no jurisdiction over what type of heating system you install in your own home. It's only function relates to the common areas of the complex.

hmmm

chicorytip wrote: »

Never mind what they think. A management company has no jurisdiction over what type of heating system you install in your own home. It's only function relates to the common areas of the complex.

In most complexes the management company owns the balcony and the exterior of the complex. And if it's a well run complex, they won't let people start installing random things on the outside of the building without sending a solicitors letter.

Askthe EA

chicorytip wrote: »

Never mind what they think. A management company has no jurisdiction over what type of heating system you install in your own home. It's only function relates to the common areas of the complex.

Yah, this is bad advice. In 99.99% of cases, the balcony belongs to the management company with the owner having license to use it ( a license that can be revoked).

SozBbz

chicorytip wrote: »

Never mind what they think. A management company has no jurisdiction over what type of heating system you install in your own home. It's only function relates to the common areas of the complex.

This is such bad advice.

Im on the board of my Mgmt Co and we run a fairly tight ship. In our case, all balconies, and attic spaces are common areas under our remit. Typically nothing major happens, and only occasionally we have to write to a resident to ask them to refrain from hanging out laundry etc (so that the place doesn't look like a tenement) and had one rather ridiculous instance last year where someone graffiti'd their own balcony with the words "Merry Christmas" in white spray paint straight onto the brick work. They were billed for it to be power hosed off.

We had one case last year where an owner unilaterally installed an external heater (similar to what you'd see in the smoking area of pubs) onto the back wall of a duplex and a mechanized canopy, again fixed to the brickwork. Totally ignorant stuff and blocked a lot of light on neighboring balconies. Needless to say its not there anymore.

ercork

SozBbz wrote: »

This is such bad advice.

Im on the board of my Mgmt Co and we run a fairly tight ship. In our case, all balconies, and attic spaces are common areas under our remit. Typically nothing major happens, and only occasionally we have to write to a resident to ask them to refrain from hanging out laundry etc (so that the place doesn't look like a tenement) and had one rather ridiculous instance last year where someone graffiti'd their own balcony with the words "Merry Christmas" in white spray paint straight onto the brick work. They were billed for it to be power hosed off.

We had one case last year where an owner unilaterally installed an external heater (similar to what you'd see in the smoking area of pubs) onto the back wall of a duplex and a mechanized canopy, again fixed to the brickwork. Totally ignorant stuff and blocked a lot of light on neighboring balconies. Needless to say its not there anymore.

This is very interesting and not something I had considered before. In the case of an air to air heat pump the outdorr unit would look something like the link below. It could hang on a wall or sit on a balcony. In your experience would a management company have an issue with it?

https://envirocenter.org/maintaining-your-heat-pump/

SozBbz

ercork wrote: »

This is very interesting and not something I had considered before. In the case of an air to air heat pump the outdorr unit would look something like the link below. It could hang on a wall or sit on a balcony. In your experience would a management company have an issue with it?

https://envirocenter.org/maintaining-your-heat-pump/

That link isnt working for me but assuming I know what they generally look like, no I don't think we would allow it.

We've not allowed anything tho be fitted to the walls/outside of the buildings/balconies.

Not to say I speak for all management companies, but we are pretty consistent. Nothing can be fixed to the outside - house rules state that owners may not make changed to the external appearance of their units.

There was consternation about allowing Sky to fit one communal box for the entire development - some were against it - had to be voted on at the AGM. And that was something that would benefit everyone by increasing choice of TV/internet providers. No way could I see the board bending the rules purely to benefit one owner.

Anyone needs to be aware of this buying into a MUD. Our place looks very well, I've seen plenty that don't. We basically don't allow any changes. If people want new windows etc, they have to be visually identical. The place looks smart as a result. I can see how that would annoy some, but its part and parcel of an MUD. I can image if every owner had been allowed to do whatever crossed their mind, then the place would look ramshackle and basically untidy, which ultimately may effect the desirability of the development, which is in noones interest.

prettyboy81

100% Gas for an apartment.

RiseToMe

I always find these threads interesting, we bought a big two bed apartment 11 years ago with storage heating, specifically two in the main living area and then electric in the bedrooms. We set them up and have never had an issue with the place being too hot or cold, including through the massive snow and we had a newborn, all of us in just tshirts day and night.

And the bedroom heaters are never ever on.

Buzwaldo

RiseToMe wrote: »

I always find these threads interesting, we bought a big two bed apartment 11 years ago with storage heating, specifically two in the main living area and then electric in the bedrooms. We set them up and have never had an issue with the place being too hot or cold, including through the massive snow and we had a newborn, all of us in just tshirts day and night.


And the bedroom heaters are never ever on.

Good to hear. This is the kind of input I was hoping for. I guess you have good insulation spec and you obviously have the heaters set up to work as intended.
Do you have an idea of your annual electricity bill?
Thanks.

Lackadaisical

Storage heating is absolutely awful in my experience of it. I'd avoid like the plague! It's also not cheap to run.

The only modern electric heating I would consider is heat pump, preferably with a ground source, but air to water is getting better all that time, it works well in this climate, but that's extremely unlikely to be in any Irish apartment.

Natural gas heating work well, it's responsive and it's reasonably priced.

One thing we should be doing is mandating heat pumps as electric heating. Storage heating shouldn't be seen as an eco friendly option for developers as it's a huge energy load using electricity to heat air. A heat pump takes the heat from the air outside and concentrates it. The heat you're getting out is a lot more than the electrical energy you're putting in.

K.Flyer

ercork wrote: »

This is very interesting and not something I had considered before. In the case of an air to air heat pump the outdorr unit would look something like the link below. It could hang on a wall or sit on a balcony. In your experience would a management company have an issue with it?

https://envirocenter.org/maintaining-your-heat-pump/

I can name a couple of management companies that would outright refuse anything like that on the external part of their buildings.
If they refuse satellite dishes etc, they won't allow something like that.

K.Flyer

chicorytip wrote: »

Never mind what they think. A management company has no jurisdiction over what type of heating system you install in your own home. It's only function relates to the common areas of the complex.

Common areas refer to the exterior walls as well.
So if you have electric storage heaters, you could find it very difficult to get permission to run a gas pipe up the wall and put a boiler flue out through the wall.
You would need full written permission before starting, otherwise you could be told to take it all down and repair the walls back to their original state.

Lackadaisical

We're going to have to allow heat pumps on balconies if we are going to retrofit to reduce out carbon footprint. They're the only viable eco friendlier technology for small units like that.

If they're fitted unobtrusively, I can't see what the issue is other than Irish nimby paranoia. It's the same with the ludicrous stuff around laundry here that's resulting in driving up of carbon footprint by effectively forcing excessive use of tumble dryers, most of which are still not energy efficient heat pump versions.

RiseToMe

Buzwaldo wrote: »

Good to hear. This is the kind of input I was hoping for. I guess you have good insulation spec and you obviously have the heaters set up to work as intended.
Do you have an idea of your annual electricity bill?
Thanks.

Insulation wise I have no idea of the spec, but the complex is 15 years old. We're on level pay just for ease so pay 70 quid a month all year but are constantly in credit, so max I'd say is 750 a year. We're a ground floor with an apartment above us but three of four of our walls are external so it's not that we're benefitting from others heat either. Also both bedroom windows are always just left on the security latch to keep the air fresh.
Yeah set up wise they come on and off charging when they are supposed to and max input with minimal output. These heaters are always as old as the apartment. Just our experience.

cgcsb

RiseToMe wrote: »

I always find these threads interesting, we bought a big two bed apartment 11 years ago with storage heating, specifically two in the main living area and then electric in the bedrooms. We set them up and have never had an issue with the place being too hot or cold, including through the massive snow and we had a newborn, all of us in just tshirts day and night.

And the bedroom heaters are never ever on.

Was it only built 11 years ago? that's like 2006, so it'd generally be higher spec than say a 90s block. New apartments generally don't even have a gas connection.

cgcsb

I'd say the only way you'd get a heat pump in your apartment is if a system was retrofitted into the whole building, with the cost shared between residents, or maybe there'll be some government scheme to achieve this?

SozBbz

cgcsb wrote: »

I'd say the only way you'd get a heat pump in your apartment is if a system was retrofitted into the whole building, with the cost shared between residents, or maybe there'll be some government scheme to achieve this?

Yep, this I could see.

Its one thing the owners voting on a retrofit project with everyone agreeing to share the costs. The MC would potentially have to leavy anyone who didnt get on board. What I don't see is any individual owner being allowed put a massive heat pump unit out on the balcony or external walls.

I don't think we're at that point yet though.

Electric heating is popular in parts of Europe and there are much better systems than the 20 year old storage heaters that would be original to our units. Anecdotally I know plenty of our neighbours who have updated their units, but just with more modern electric systems that are within their rights to do so as they are fully within the units.

There will doubtless be a decision to be made in future but we're not there yet. When that time comes, we will explore other options in terms of doing something collectively for the benefit of all apartments and duplexes within the development.

Personally I've never had a major issue with our storage heaters and we still have the old, cumbersome ones. I would absolutely consider putting in newer ones but only when I'm going to redecorate anyway. We're hopefully moving out soon and will rent it out, so possible if we need to paint between tenants, that would be the time. If we do it now before it becomes a rental, theres no tax relief in it for us.

Anyway, just to give my 2c on the set up overall - one thing I do like about being all electic is the electic water heating system. Its relatively inexpensive and we have near constant hot water. It heats up overnight on the night rate meter and there is a boost button available if we need it which is hardly ever. The tank has that hard case insulation so even if you're taking an evening shower and its technically not been heating for 12hours or more, theres still hot water available.

My understanding is that builders were incentivised to use electic systems at a point in time due to government policy. Historically electricity has been hard to store and you can't just easily ramp up and down production -many plans just operate on a near constant basis. Evolution of battery technology may change this but the pro electric policy was to try to use power from the grid at a time when otherwise it would likely go to waste. I run our washing machine/dishwasher overnight as well as the heaters in winter and anything else that needs charging. Having a night rate meter can be to your benefit!

RiseToMe

cgcsb wrote: »

Was it only built 11 years ago? that's like 2006, so it'd generally be higher spec than say a 90s block. New apartments generally don't even have a gas connection.

No built in 2004, but still a lot has changed in materials since then

Buzwaldo

OP here.
Just said I would revisit this one to close the circle.
We did end up buying the apartment with natural gas heating.
But it needed a full renovation job, and the gas boiler was old and needed replacing with a new condenser boiler. This would have necessitated siting the new boiler on an external wall, which would have meant a good bit of work, re-plumbing etc. (approx 4-5K). It was an 80s construct, and about 30-40% of the apartments walls were external. Any time we were in the apartment over the winter, it never felt cold. We decided to just remove the old cavity dry lining on external walls and replace with insulated board, and installed electric heaters (not storage) for about 1500 or less - part of full rewiring job.
Our thinking is that with many walls shared, and only 30% true external, and with the insulation, and the small apartment size, that the cost of replumbing etc for new condenser boiler was not justifiable.
Even the standing charge on the gas bill and the cost of an annual service of the boiler would pay for a nice bit of electricity.
Anyway, happy with the decision, and the fact we went for this apartment (which needed work) over the other meant we got a better location, albeit at a higher renovation cost than we initially estimated.
Hopefully will be cosy & not too heavy on juice in the Winter.