Electric cars to me are a load of rubbish : Michael Healy-Rae

FFred

From the man himself who must believe that oil is going to last forever ...:pac:

https://www.independent.ie/videos/irish-news/watch-electric-cars-to-me-are-a-load-of-rubbish-michael-healyrae-36220056.html#play

Edit : Just realised that his words of wisdom were from 1.5 years ago. Apologies if it was discussed before

Turbohymac

Possible rephrased .the electric cars at present are Extremely limited in their range and abilities. And are presently grossly overpriced even for someone who could live with range issues..very limited amount and size of electric vehicles and the fact that no electric car can be fitted with towbar.. no towing that's an issue for most people living in the countryside..
Ev will possibly be a realistic option to diesel and petrol but that's 15 years down the road..

beanian

Turbohymac wrote: »

the fact that no electric car can be fitted with towbar..

Both the Model 3 & Model X can come with a towbar

stimpson

Turbohymac wrote: »

Possible rephrased .the electric cars at present are Extremely limited in their range and abilities. And are presently grossly overpriced even for someone who could live with range issues..very limited amount and size of electric vehicles and the fact that no electric car can be fitted with towbar.. no towing that's an issue for most people living in the countryside..
Ev will possibly be a realistic option to diesel and petrol but that's 15 years down the road..

Except you're wrong on pretty much all of that. May have been true when the article was written, but not now.

1. The e-Niro has 445 km range and 204bhp on tap. €37K, which sounds a lot, but then you don't have to put petrol in it.
2. Hyundai Kona has similar range/price
3. Leaf e+ will do 384km and has 214bhp
4. Mitsubishi Outlander will tow 1500kg, and has 4WD

EV/PHEV is a realistic option now. For someone doing intergalactic milage, diesel will be a better buy (for a while) but for most people, an EV/PHEV can do all that's needed now.

n97 mini

Do most people living in the country side need to tow? The vast majority aren't farmers.

Lackadaisical

Why does this even get any traction at all on this forum?
His opinion doesn't reflect any major or minor party's policies or national policies.

Oxygen of publicity being given a little bit too easily?

nthclare

It's handy to have a tow bar anywhere.

Sure couldn't Patsy down the road back end you and you're up on the ditch, at least the toe bar will take a lot of the shlap.

In fairness a lot of average farmers, landscaper's, builder's like to have a bit of power behind them, who's going to want to be forking out big money for something which isn't affordable.

Healy Rae has a good point, I know some people class him as a giggery guuu but I know where he's coming from.

Eric Cartman

n97 mini wrote: »

Do most people living in the country side need to tow? The vast majority aren't farmers.

without billions of investment in electicity infrastructure , their mates konked out electric cars or diesel generators.

Lackadaisical

EVs are still in early adopter phase. We all know that. They're begining to mainstream and I think you'll start seeing a lot more options as more manufacturers jump on board.

At present they're probably not practical as a work vehicle or a tow and are focused on passenger car use, but that will change.

unkel

Lackadaisical wrote: »

At present they're probably not practical as a work vehicle or a tow

EVs are useless at towing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3lqqID-5Ac

JohnC.

I wonder what kind of range it gets doing that

somefeen

In theory they'd be great for towing. Simpler drivetrains and linear torque.

unkel

JohnC. wrote: »

I wonder what kind of range it gets doing that

Yep, you've put the finger on the Achilles heel of EVs right there. EVs are very good at a lot of things, but the one drawback is they only have a fraction of the energy on board that ICE vehicles do.

So if you need to tow a horse box for 250km on the motorway regularly, you enter a world of pain, unless you buy a very expensive Tesla Model X (that has a big 100kWh battery). On a budget, a 4WD PHEV like a Mitsubishi Outlander, would be a very good alternative for a diesel though.

eddhorse

You would think Healy Rae would be behind cars getting to a point where they can drive you home from the pub.

NIMAN

I'm surprised he hasn't mentioned God.

oceanfroggie

FFred wrote: »

From the man himself who must believe that oil is going to last forever ...:pac:

https://www.independent.ie/videos/irish-news/watch-electric-cars-to-me-are-a-load-of-rubbish-michael-healyrae-36220056.html#play

Edit : Just realised that his words of wisdom were from 1.5 years ago. Apologies if it was discussed before

Two years ago I would have agreed with him.

The Leaf's poor range more than any other car put me off going electric until this year. As a former EV sceptic I've watched tech savvy early adopters make early gen Leafs work for them, but adding hours to long road trips compared to a normal ICE.

2019 saw the arrival of the e-Niro, Kona, e-Soul, Zoe 52, which are game changers and make affordable and usable BEVs consumer useable just like any appliance that should not need extra knowledge to make it successful nor should life styles have to change to suit a BEV. Dublin to Cork should take only 2h45m on motorway at motorway speeds in an ICE or a BEV and be possible in one leg without the need for intermediate charging stops. Next year BEVs should become mainstream with affordable long range models from VW, Seat, Renault, Peugeot, etc. 2019 BEVs arrived and now work with ease. No need to depend on public charging network.

slave1

oceanfroggie wrote: »

.... Next year BEVs should become mainstream with affordable long range models from VW, Seat, Renault, Peugeot, etc. 2019 BEVs arrived and now work with ease. No need to depend on public charging network.

I hope you're right but from the looks of things a price point has been set for long range/~64 sized batteries and it's €37-€40k and I can't see that changing for years to come

KCross

oceanfroggie wrote: »

Next year BEVs should become mainstream with affordable long range models from VW, Seat, Renault, Peugeot, etc. 2019 BEVs arrived and now work with ease. No need to depend on public charging network.

Thats still an issue though. There are no affordable long range BEV's this year or next.

Affordable is, of course, a relative term but I would reference it to their ICE equivalents and on that measure they are not affordable.
e.g. A long range Leaf, Kona, eNiro and ID.3 for ~€40k cant be considered affordable. The others you've mentioned are likely not to be long range.

They are overpriced (and thats after a €10k gift from the taxpayer!!!) and that is one of the major stumbling blocks for adoption.

Mike9832

He's correct on price in fairness

stimpson

The price thing is mitigated by fuel savings. I was going to do some sums, but the Journal has saved me the bother:

https://www.thejournal.ie/how-much-does-it-cost-to-run-an-electric-car-4196606-Aug2018/

To buy and run a Leaf a year, paying €449 for a home charging system, charging the car twice a week, servicing once a year, and using the M50 twice a day, Monday to Friday during peak hours with a tag account and with the EVTI savings, will cost you €30,510.

Removing the initial purchase price of the Leaf, it costs €1,550 a year to run the car all-in.

Using the same variables, it costs about €2,539 a year to run a Ford Focus.

I noticed that they include the cost of the charge point in their yearly calculations. If you subtract the €449, it means your savings are €1438 per annum, based on driving 20000km/year. If you buy new and drive for 3 years you'll save an additional €4314.

Shefwedfan

Healy-Rae owns a fuel station. Selling diesel/petrol. That's why he hates electric.

Just look at the thread on them, private roads getting re-tarred for locals and it is his company who does the job while the government pays for it

Best to ignore idiots.

Shefwedfan

nthclare wrote: »

It's handy to have a tow bar anywhere.

Sure couldn't Patsy down the road back end you and you're up on the ditch, at least the toe bar will take a lot of the shlap.

In fairness a lot of average farmers, landscaper's, builder's like to have a bit of power behind them, who's going to want to be forking out big money for something which isn't affordable.

Healy Rae has a good point, I know some people class him as a giggery guuu but I know where he's coming from.

Why? most car's have point to connect if you do need to pull out of a ditch. Insurance, service etc all comes with free tow truck.....


I have yet to see a good point from Healy-Rae. Majority of points they make end up with something they can make money out of....nothing else.....


If they started to generate electricity down in Kerry expect them to push as many electric cars as possible as they could scam the locals out of more cash

bingus666

I've a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV 2014 with towbar. I fill it up (45lt petrol tank) once every 3-4 weeks. €50.

I drive long distance on petrol (which also charges the battery) & short on electric, i.e going thru villages/city. I bought it 2nd hand in 2017 and was very affordable. It has saved me on petrol costs, road tax & insurance. The island of Ireland is not that big & therefore end to end journey's on one charge is very feasible.

it's a no-brainer to me...

redcup342

Turbohymac wrote: »

Possible rephrased .the electric cars at present are Extremely limited in their range and abilities. And are presently grossly overpriced even for someone who could live with range issues..very limited amount and size of electric vehicles and the fact that no electric car can be fitted with towbar.. no towing that's an issue for most people living in the countryside..
Ev will possibly be a realistic option to diesel and petrol but that's 15 years down the road..

For one people living in the Countryside are probably in the best situation since they have their own parking and a place install a home charging point.

If you are driving for more than 2 hours without taking a break that's probably a bad idea anyway.

How many people are doing a 250 km trip then immediately turning around and going back anyway ?

With regards to "filling it" you can just do that at your home without having to detour to a garage or in a city center with free parking included.

And it's not like Ireland is huge anyways.

JohnC.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Healy-Rae owns a fuel station. Selling diesel/petrol. That's why he hates electric.

I’ve heard petrol station people talk about how they don’t make much on the fuel and they need to rely on their shop/cafe or whatever to make a living.

If that’s the case, I’m surprised they’re not all installing charge points. People in EVs aren’t going to be plugging in for just a minute or two so are probably more likely to use the other facilities.

Shefwedfan

JohnC. wrote: »

I’ve heard petrol station people talk about how they don’t make much on the fuel and they need to rely on their shop/cafe or whatever to make a living.

If that’s the case, I’m surprised they’re not all installing charge points. People in EVs aren’t going to be plugging in for just a minute or two so are probably more likely to use the other facilities.

Petrol station people have been firing that line out for years, is this was correct why are they opening so many of them?


If the money is in food then electric shoud be better as longer time to refill as you said. It takes you 5 mins to fill in a car and head off....it will take you 30 mins to top up to any capacity in electric car, loads of time to eat food etc


Diesel/petrol is a cash cow for these guys. Simple as that. Anything else they come up with is BS

ELM327

JohnC. wrote: »

I’ve heard petrol station people talk about how they don’t make much on the fuel and they need to rely on their shop/cafe or whatever to make a living.

If that’s the case, I’m surprised they’re not all installing charge points. People in EVs aren’t going to be plugging in for just a minute or two so are probably more likely to use the other facilities.

Throughput on EVs is very low, it's the case that very low margin (even as low as 10 basis points, i've seen from fuel station owners) on a litre of fuel is much better in a busy forecourt due to throughput, compared to 500% markup for 2 evs per hour.

If you only make 10 basis points per transaction but you refill 50-100 cars per hour @70 each it's much much better than the higher pro rata markup on EV recharging.
And the person in for 5 minutes to refill a fossil car can also buy coffee, I do it all the time!

Mickeroo

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Petrol station people have been firing that line out for years, is this was correct why are they opening so many of them?


If the money is in food then electric shoud be better as longer time to refill as you said. It takes you 5 mins to fill in a car and head off....it will take you 30 mins to top up to any capacity in electric car, loads of time to eat food etc


Diesel/petrol is a cash cow for these guys. Simple as that. Anything else they come up with is BS

I deal a lot with forecourts in my line of work and it's actually true that they make very little off the fuel. The margins on it are tiny, Coffee is a bigger earner for them. Some forecourts don't even own the fuel they sell, they sell it because it's the main thing that gets people into the shop.

EV chargers aren't appealing because the turnover of people is much less and much slower.

KCross

JohnC. wrote: »

I’ve heard petrol station people talk about how they don’t make much on the fuel and they need to rely on their shop/cafe or whatever to make a living.

If that’s the case, I’m surprised they’re not all installing charge points. People in EVs aren’t going to be plugging in for just a minute or two so are probably more likely to use the other facilities.

The cost of the rapid is prohibitive. You are looking at a 6 figure sum for one charge point. You'll sell alot of coffee to diesel owners for that capital investment!


Maxol say that 60% profit is from fuel and 40% from food....
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=109857313&postcount=107

So, the "no money in fuel" thing is BS.

KCross

Mickeroo wrote: »

I deal a lot with forecourts in my line of work and it's actually true that they make very little off the fuel. The margins on it are tiny,

Are you dealing with independents or the big companies like Topaz etc? That maxol article I just posted would suggest you are wrong?

The margins might be small but the volume is massive so it adds up.

Mickeroo

KCross wrote: »

Are you dealing with independents or the big companies like Topaz etc? That maxol article I just posted would suggest you are wrong?

The margins might be small but the volume is massive so it adds up.

I was talking purely in margins. I stand corrected on overall profits then if your figures are to be believed.

oceanfroggie

slave1 wrote: »

I hope you're right but from the looks of things a price point has been set for long range/~64 sized batteries and it's €37-€40k and I can't see that changing for years to come

I was at a presentation a few months ago on global EV production and one of the interesting snippets of data was how battery costs per kWh were continuing to fall exponentially on the market much like a commodity. Lots of stats on new factories as the global market scales to cope with the 'transition era' from ICE to BEV. Only time will tell if this is true or hope. VW have been running around the world buying up factories, which could cause a supply problem for competitors, but china could be the solution to the global battery shortage. They are opening dozens of factories that are larger than Tesla's giga factories. Next years VW ID.3 is pitched to sell at the same price as current ICE golfs. I have an eye on the ID.Crozz which should cost the same or even slightly less than the current Kona 64. When looking at cost TCO has to be considered, BEV saves a lot on fuel and servicing costs per annum. I used to spend €500/pm on diesel, now that €42 on night rate electricity for home charging. Yipee I will never have to go to a filling station forecourt again.

mirrorwall14

Until there is guidance on how you install a charge point to charge the car when your designated parking space is across the road or kerbside you cannot have widespread adoption. Considering there is electricity on both sides of the damn road its insane to have to pay to dig up the road to get a charge point to your space.

stimpson

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Until there is guidance on how you install a charge point to charge the car when your designated parking space is across the road or kerbside you cannot have widespread adoption. Considering there is electricity on both sides of the damn road its insane to have to pay to dig up the road to get a charge point to your space.

Ther is a scheme in London where they install charge points on lampposts and you can pay for a charge with a QR code and an app. There are solutions out there.

mirrorwall14

stimpson wrote: »

Ther is a scheme in London where they install charge points on lampposts and you can pay for a charge with a QR code and an app. There are solutions out there.

There are but there's no consistency or widespread adoption yet. I'm in a private estate not in charge of the council. Its just not going to happen currently even though I would go electric in a heartbeat. Unfortunately we had to compromise on driveway when we bought. There's no clarity on how insurance works, if I install a kerbside charger do I own it? The land on the footpath isn't mine. What happens if someone walks into it and injures themselves, is it me or the management company that are liable? Too many questions currently

And the public charging system doesn't seem to work consistently here at all. I definitely wouldn't buy being dependent on it

Shefwedfan

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Until there is guidance on how you install a charge point to charge the car when your designated parking space is across the road or kerbside you cannot have widespread adoption. Considering there is electricity on both sides of the damn road its insane to have to pay to dig up the road to get a charge point to your space.

Do you have a petrol pump across the road or kerbside?:P I joke but long range BEV means a fill once a week for a huge amount of people



At the moment Nigel Daly and other suppliers have solutions to kerbsite etc

liamog

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

There are but there's no consistency or widespread adoption yet. I'm in a private estate not in charge of the council. Its just not going to happen currently even though I would go electric in a heartbeat. Unfortunately we had to compromise on driveway when we bought. There's no clarity on how insurance works, if I install a kerbside charger do I own it? The land on the footpath isn't mine. What happens if someone walks into it and injures themselves, is it me or the management company that are liable? Too many questions currently

And the public charging system doesn't seem to work consistently here at all. I definitely wouldn't buy being dependent on it

I had some discussions with my insurance companies when installing a charger outside my home in a private estate with on street parking.
My car insurance company reasoned that they would provide the exact same cover for the kerbside charger as they would for any other charger in a public space, i.e. as the cable came with the car, and the car is plugged into a charging socket, liability for the car charging port to the charging socket lay with the operator of the car and hence was covered by my vehicle insurance.

If you are worried about insurance issues, I would recommend that you install a non tethered charger that is designed for operation in the public realm. Here's the charging point we installed. post

You will pay more for the charger, and I recommend that you work with one of the more experienced installers, they will cost more, but can work with the mgmt company to allay any issues.

mirrorwall14

liamog wrote: »

I had some discussions with my insurance companies when installing a charger outside my home in a private estate with on street parking.
My car insurance company reasoned that they would provide the exact same cover for the kerbside charger as they would for any other charger in a public space, i.e. as the cable came with the car, and the car is plugged into a charging socket, liability for the car charging port to the charging socket lay with the operator of the car and hence was covered by my vehicle insurance.

If you are worried about insurance issues, I would recommend that you install a non tethered charger that is designed for operation in the public realm. Here's the charging point we installed. post

You will pay more for the charger, and I recommend that you work with one of the more experienced installers, they will cost more, but can work with the mgmt company to allay any issues.

Yeah I’ve seen this before and looked into it at the time. As my budget for car is about 12k it’s just not financially there yet when 1.5-2k of that would have to go on a pillar charger. That’s not counting how awkward my management company were being. The space at my door is non designated. My own is across the road. I’m due to upgrade next January so we’ll look into it again at that stage and see if we get further

reg114

FFred wrote: »

From the man himself who must believe that oil is going to last forever ...:pac:

https://www.independent.ie/videos/irish-news/watch-electric-cars-to-me-are-a-load-of-rubbish-michael-healyrae-36220056.html#play

Edit : Just realised that his words of wisdom were from 1.5 years ago. Apologies if it was discussed before

Healey Rae is a professional troll do not take the bait. The exponential rise in sales of electric cars in the first few months of this year alone blow his ignorance clean out of the water.

_Brian

To him and his needs he’s probably right.

There is a constant chant that there is an ev out there for everyone, there isn’t. From that perspective there is allot of rubbish being thrown about by hardline believers.

I’d say currently there are EV suitable for max 50% of road users, the remainders needs can only be met by petrol or diesel. No matter what taxes you add it doesn’t magic up EV that suit all users, it just punishes people for not buying something that doesn’t actually exist.

Mickeroo

_Brian wrote: »

To him and his needs he’s probably right.

There is a constant chant that there is an ev out there for everyone, there isn’t. From that perspective there is allot of rubbish being thrown about by hardline believers.

I’d say currently there are EV suitable for max 50% of road users, the remainders needs can only be met by petrol or diesel. No matter what taxes you add it doesn’t magic up EV that suit all users, it just punishes people for not buying something that doesn’t actually exist.

From who? Certainly not a common view on this forum from what I've seen.

_Brian

Mickeroo wrote: »

From who? Certainly not a common view on this forum from what I've seen.

You see ot all the time on boards and other forums, then there’s the last ditch throw out of “a Tesla can do that”, sure, as if an€70k car is a solution for tuenevery day punter 🙄

Shefwedfan

_Brian wrote: »

You see ot all the time on boards and other forums, then there’s the last ditch throw out of “a Tesla can do that”, sure, as if an€70k car is a solution for tuenevery day punter 🙄

Where? bar one thread when the person asked for a 4k car and the recommendation was a Kona I have not seen anything like that.....that was on motors and was disaster



On this forum everyone is very up front on the benefit and draw backs of BEV.

unkel

_Brian wrote: »

You see ot all the time on boards

Any examples? Pretty much everyone in this forum, the biggest fans of EVs included, are open and honest about the drawbacks of EVs and the suitability or unsuitability of them for people asking

_Brian wrote: »

then there’s the last ditch throw out of “a Tesla can do that”, sure, as if an€70k car is a solution for tuenevery day punter ��

I only remember seeing something like that posted as a reply to someone making an untrue, generalising comment like "EVs can not tow". I've done it myself with a video of a Tesla or a MINI towing a big airplane

TheValeyard

I'd be interested in a EV, but just a number of concerns at the moment.

My main reasons

1) the price of purchasing one (just seems extravagant at the moment, for work and for family)

2) mates who bought one have told me about little thing that can affect the battery usage, which is obvious when you think about it, such as using the radio, heating, wipers, all will lessen the mileage you can get per charge.

3) I travel about 80-90km per day. Feel like it would be requiring a daily charge of home install unit which is another expense.

4) future price of elected to runs these cars, since all that tax
Loss on petrol and diesel will have to be made up somewhere.


Suppose I'll keep my current car until it literally stops working then take another look at EV

jusmeig

The Healy-Rae's are like organized religion, you are not suppose to take them seriously.

KCross

TheValeyard wrote: »

I'd be interested in a EV, but just a number of concerns at the moment.

My main reasons

1) the price of purchasing one (just seems extravagant at the moment, for work and for family)

Valid concern. They are too epxensive but you do need to look at the fuel savings and factor that into the purchase decision.

TheValeyard wrote: »

2) mates who bought one have told me about little thing that can affect the battery usage, which is obvious when you think about it, such as using the radio, heating, wipers, all will lessen the mileage you can get per charge.

None of those affect range except heating. Most EV's can pre-heat the car before you get into it in the morning (so no effect on range) and maintaining the heat is then very little. You just need to use that feature.

With longer range EV's now also available it matters even less.

TheValeyard wrote: »

3) I travel about 80-90km per day. Feel like it would be requiring a daily charge of home install unit which is another expense.

If you buy a s/h short range EV then yes it will require a daily charge. Thats no big deal. You do that for your phone so the car isnt any different. It takes 10s at the end of the day to plug it in.

There is a grant for the charge point which covers 90%-100% of the cost of the charge point. Its not a reason to not buy an EV.

TheValeyard wrote: »

4) future price of electric to runs these cars, since all that tax
Loss on petrol and diesel will have to be made up somewhere.

It will have to come from somewhere but you will be paying double if you stick with ICE as carbon tax is on its way and you will be hit alot harder on ICE than you will on home electricity.

The running costs on electricity are about 20% of your diesel.

TheValeyard wrote: »

Suppose I'll keep my current car until it literally stops working then take another look at EV

Nothing wrong with that either.

I would suggest two things...
- Test drive an EV. Its the drive is what usually hooks people. THey are very nice to drive.
- Look at your ICE running costs and compare to EV running costs and THEN decide if it makes financial sense to you or not. Dont just look at the buy price. At 90km/day I think your savings will be substantial.

I save about €2k+ per year by running an EV vs ICE.

bladespin

KCross wrote:

The running costs on electricity are about 20% of your diesel.

Does that take account of battery wear and tear over the lifetime of the car?

Shefwedfan

bladespin wrote: »

Does that take account of battery wear and tear over the lifetime of the car?

That is as hard to judge as trying to work out how many horses a standrad petrol/diesel car is losing over time.....

You could monitor monthly via app's etc.

bladespin

Shefwedfan wrote:

That is as hard to judge as trying to work out how many horses a standrad petrol/diesel car is losing over time.....

Not asking about horsepower, just cost.

The battery most likely will last the lifetime of the car. All of the current models have 8 year capacity warranties, some unlimited mileage (like Tesla).