Conservative and well off or Liberal and poor/scraping by.

freshpopcorn

You have two options for Ireland.

Conservative and well off.
Catholic church would be highly respected.
No divorcee/abortion/homosexuality/contraception.(Hard to access)
If you get pregnant you get married.
Women's place would be in the home once they had children.
You would have plenty of money tough and have easy access to a home where you want/good car/holidays.
HSE would be run excellently.
Liberal and poor/scraping by.
Basically how we are now in Ireland regarding social issues/areas where we've progressed in the last few years.
However money/housing/health service would always be a worry.

I'd probably end up picking the second option. It would be interesting to see what the other one would be like tough.(For a day).

Omackeral

How do I delete someone else's thread?

Roger Hassenforder

Are they the only options?

FFS.

baby and crumble

TBH as a;

- woman
- religious minority
- homosexual

it wouldn't be a case of 'scraping by', my entire existence would be illegal/horrific/not worth anything.

very interesting thought experiment

id live with conservative and well off

itll be painted black as a view, but the practical good of the majority and a solid platform from which to do well individually is imo more of a workable and defensible aim for society/govt than the rights of the individual to be totally fulfilled in their pleasures/concept of self/personal tastes

i note that you havent described a totalitarian state so i presume i dont have to defend my response in those terms, and id note (while accepting your OP as a thought experiment that I believe we can have both, and that each generation gets better off but that young wans and edgy types will always have to find the areas to shock and berate their elders and the solod yeoman masses)

edit: heh ive read your conditions on abortion/divorce etc and maybe ill change my answer a bit!

Sonics2k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t28ZB1t6gg8

freshpopcorn

Omackeral wrote: »

How do I delete someone else's thread?

I was going to suggest becoming a moderator but I don't know if that would be possible!

Omackeral

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I was going to suggest becoming a moderator but I don't know if that would be possible!

If you can do it, anybody can.

freshpopcorn

Omackeral wrote: »

If you can do it, anybody can.

I'm filling the quota for the dozy mod at the moment but having a clean record is handy.

seamus

If they're the only two options, then there's not really any contest. Happiness and freedom go hand in hand. Conservative countries tend to be great for the 1% who make up the conservative rules, while everyone else gets to be miserable.

Would money be lots of consolation for you when your child kills themselves because the prevailing ideology denies the existence of mental illness and encourages everyone to "keep it in the family" and go pray for help?

Ten of Swords

Pass on the first option thanks

And I'm pretty sure the HSE would be exactly as it is now in either scenario :pac:

Omackeral

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I'm filling the quota for the dozy mod at the moment but having a clean record is handy.

Well done. So you're a goody-two-shoes and you're working for free. Result!

Mr. CooL ICE

Omackeral wrote: »

If you can do it, anybody can.

Give him a break. He's still busy trying to get premarital sex banned.

Omackeral

Mark Rippetoe wrote: »

Give him a break. He's still busy trying to get premarital sex banned.

Wait, is there any other kind?!

freshpopcorn

seamus wrote: »

If they're the only two options, then there's not really any contest. Happiness and freedom go hand in hand. Conservative countries tend to be great for the 1% who make up the conservative rules, while everyone else gets to be miserable.

Would money be lots of consolation for you when your child kills themselves because the prevailing ideology denies the existence of mental illness and encourages everyone to "keep it in the family" and go pray for help?

I don't know. I voted voted for the more liberal option.

I'm always told tough by older people tough about how happy they used be when Ireland was more conservative compared to the youth of Today.

freshpopcorn

Mark Rippetoe wrote: »

Give him a break. He's still busy trying to get premarital sex banned.

I'd never make it illegal for mods tough!

FunLover18

Conservative and well off ... Unless you're a non-Catholic, a woman, or homosexual. You're ****ed if you're all three.

baby and crumble

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I'm always told tough by older people tough about how happy they used be when Ireland was more conservative compared to the youth of Today.

When ireland was more conservative or when life was generally 'simpler' for most people? There's a difference.

I'd likely say if you spoke to

- women who were in abusive relationships
- gay people
- people abused by religious orders
- men forced into careers they never wanted because they were told to forget about being artistic or whatever

they would disagree.

ohnonotgmail

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I don't know. I voted voted for the more liberal option.

I'm always told tough by older people tough about how happy they used be when Ireland was more conservative compared to the youth of Today.

I remember those times. they're lying to you.

Apiarist

Well off liberal. Add this to your poll, here's a good lad.

freshpopcorn

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I remember those times. they're lying to you.

I think they easily pleased to be honest and felt they had everything with there basic house,simpler lifestyle.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

No middle ground, so too unrealistic for me to choose either. I'll emigrate.

s7ryf3925pivug

Really this is asking liberal people 'would you sell out your convictions?' The answer to that is always yes, unless you are a martyr, the question is at what point.

Me, given the choice above, I would pay lip service to the conservative ideals to achieve security - because my sense of responsibility for the wellbeing of my child is stronger than my sense of social responsibility. Privately I'd teach my child that it was all bullish!t but to be pragmatic and pay lip service too. In fact this is part if what I already plan to do just in a less extreme scenario. For example, bad language doesn't matter, but you pretend it does because it is socially advantageous to do so.

If I had no kid, then I'd go with liberal and poor.

Alun

I stopped at "scrapping" by.

funny

i dont see huge evidence of anyone being happier under either system

anecdata aside

odyssey06

Which one is The Handmaid's Tale?

freshpopcorn

baby and crumble wrote: »

When ireland was more conservative or when life was generally 'simpler' for most people? There's a difference.

I'd likely say if you spoke to

- women who were in abusive relationships
- gay people
- people abused by religious orders
- men forced into careers they never wanted because they were told to forget about being artistic or whatever

they would disagree.

Sort of a bit of both was the impression I got off them.
I have spoken to people who were gay in the 80's, men/women who were abused, forced into careers they didn't want(Still a massive problem).
Some were happy and some weren't but I think some just had families and got by and others were deeply unhappy.

freshpopcorn

Kyra Full Lasagna wrote: »

Really this is asking liberal people 'would you sell out your convictions?' The answer to that is always yes, unless you are a martyr, the question is at what point.

Me, given the choice above, I would pay lip service to the conservative ideals to achieve security - because my sense of responsibility for the wellbeing of my child is stronger than my sense of social responsibility. Privately I'd teach my child that it was all bullish!t but to be pragmatic and pay lip service too. In fact this is part if what I already plan to do just in a less extreme scenario. For example, bad language doesn't matter, but you pretend it does because it is socially advantageous to do so.

If I had no kid, then I'd go with liberal and poor.

That is essentially what I'm asking but I'm a tad thick to word it correctly.

baby and crumble

I think there's a difference between 'nodding the head' but doing what you want anyway, and living under an incredibly repressive dogmatic regime that opens you up to being locked up for doing something simple - or at best shunned in your own society/ family.

Of course people got on with it - not every single gay person left the country as soon as they turned 18 before decriminalisation - but I don't know if being 'comfortable' income-wise would be enough to make you happy to essentially live a massive lie (about being gay or anything really).

Now, if you could guarantee that you'd be rich and powerful and could buy your way out of anything in such a situation then yeah, it'd be tempting. But not just if you're 'comfortable'.

James Brown

The descriptions are odd. Conservatives can be wealthy or poor. I know numerous working class people who would be very religious and decent and generous, the two not necessarily connected.

The poll options are a little confusing. I'm reminded of 'Don't do what Donnie Don't does' and this...



I'd take freedom over the yoke of the church or any other bullshyte organisation preaching from generally a hypocritical moral high ground.

Matt Barrett

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I'd take freedom over the yoke of the church or any other bullshyte organisation preaching from generally a hypocritical moral high ground.

the internet left, iirc

nthclare

Moderately financially secure and can afford what life throws at me.

mimimcmc

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I don't know. I voted voted for the more liberal option.

I'm always told tough by older people tough about how happy they used be when Ireland was more conservative compared to the youth of Today.

https://wikidiff.com/though/tough

Just leaving this here for you

seamus

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I'm always told tough by older people tough about how happy they used be when Ireland was more conservative compared to the youth of Today.

I know some elderly people who are often misty-eyed about the past. About how you could just chat to anyone on the bus, nobody had earphones in ignoring anyone else. About how the work day was nine to five and commuting took 20 minutes so you were home for the dinner at 5:30.

But an hour later they'll have forgotten they were supposed to be misty-eyed and they'll be talking about having to smuggle contraceptives back from the UK and having to get approval from the priests before they could come back to Mass after childbirth.

It's easy to see the past through rose-tinted glasses. And that's not to say that everything about the past was worse. Some things were better.

But I have yet to meet a single person in real life who would say that they would trade today's world for yesteryear's one.

Outlaw Pete

Don't agree with premarital sex either.

For a start it could make you late for the wedding.

freshpopcorn

mimimcmc wrote: »

https://wikidiff.com/though/tough

Just leaving this here for you

FunLover18

Kyra Full Lasagna wrote: »

Really this is asking liberal people 'would you sell out your convictions?' The answer to that is always yes, unless you are a martyr, the question is at what point.

Me, given the choice above, I would pay lip service to the conservative ideals to achieve security - because my sense of responsibility for the wellbeing of my child is stronger than my sense of social responsibility. Privately I'd teach my child that it was all bullish!t but to be pragmatic and pay lip service too. In fact this is part if what I already plan to do just in a less extreme scenario. For example, bad language doesn't matter, but you pretend it does because it is socially advantageous to do so.

If I had no kid, then I'd go with liberal and poor.

At what point in the scenario posed by the OP do you stop paying lip service? When your daughter is told she can't be a lawyer or doctor *and* a mother because her place is in the home? When your son comes out as gay and is told his lifestyle is illegal? When your daughter gets raped and is told she has to carry the child to term and possibly get married?

freshpopcorn

seamus wrote: »

But I have yet to meet a single person in real life who would say that they would trade today's world for yesteryear's one.

I'd say a few extremists would but in reality the majority wouldn't.
I know one guy who's anti gay, contraception, etc but he's being divorced twice and his wives had an awful time with him.

FunLover18

FunLover18 wrote: »

At what point in the scenario posed by the OP do you stop paying lip service? When your daughter is told she can't be a lawyer or doctor *and* a mother because her place is in the home? When your son comes out as gay and is told his lifestyle is illegal? When your daughter gets raped and is told she has to carry the child to term and possibly get married?

interesting question, is this theoretical society fixed and immutable?

freshpopcorn

FunLover18 wrote: »

At what point in the scenario posed by the OP do you stop paying lip service? When your daughter is told she can't be a lawyer or doctor *and* a mother because her place is in the home? When your son comes out as gay and is told his lifestyle is illegal? When your daughter gets raped and is told she has to carry the child to term and possibly get married?

That's something people would really have to ask themselves.
I know people and they wouldn't have cared about the marriage referendum if it wasn't for their family.

One eyed Jack

freshpopcorn wrote: »

You have two options for Ireland.

Conservative and well off.
Catholic church would be highly respected.
No divorcee/abortion/homosexuality/contraception.(Hard to access)
If you get pregnant you get married.
Women's place would be in the home once they had children.
You would have plenty of money tough and have easy access to a home where you want/good car/holidays.
HSE would be run excellently.
Liberal and poor/scraping by.
Basically how we are now in Ireland regarding social issues/areas where we've progressed in the last few years.
However money/housing/health service would always be a worry.

I'd probably end up picking the second option. It would be interesting to see what the other one would be like tough.(For a day).

I’d be picking the first option, simply because it aligns much closer to my values than the second option.

One eyed Jack

odyssey06 wrote: »

Which one is The Handmaid's Tale?

Given she’s escaped more times than Houdini and she’s still not on the wall, it’s getting more difficult to suspend my disbelief with that show. It was bad enough when I was supposed to believe Americans wanted to get into Canada :pac:

FunLover18

[Deleted User] wrote: »

interesting question, is this theoretical society fixed and immutable?

I assumed so in order for it to be a proper choice.

Tony EH

You know someone is either young, politically naive, or spending too much time on the web listening to Americans, when the word "Liberal" is used to reflect the opposite of "Conservative".

A "Liberal" this side of the Atlantic is not the same and never has been the same as an American "Liberal".

FunLover18

FunLover18 wrote: »

I assumed so in order for it to be a proper choice.

thats even more fundamental again so

progressive and liberal leaning individuals (theres areas under which id count myself one, fwiw) make quite an understandable but important error of magnitude when advocating for change (the change they want, obv)

they set the existing (presumed dissastisfactory) set of circumstances (the "from") as a full negative too often

they set the theoretical (presumed desirable) set of circumstances as a full positive too often.

crucially, they refuse to recognise that most ideas throughout history have been pretty rotten. we just ignore or forget the ones that fall by tye wayside.

dont have that luxury with the past existing set of circumstances (boo hiss) so that in our coalescing timeline of certainty the change we made that stuck was obvious and necessary and all of a sudden its "all change is good and easy why is everyone who disagree with me so stupid"

its quite inevitable really.

TheValeyard

cgcsb

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I don't know. I voted voted for the more liberal option.

I'm always told tough by older people tough about how happy they used be when Ireland was more conservative compared to the youth of Today.

Lashing all those babies into the septic tank was great craic altogether. Seriously though, old people only recall a rose tinted world, if they looked at their circumstances with fresh eyes in those days they'd have plopped the toaster into the bath ages ago.

Ten of Swords

Crap tv, crap food, no diversity, no internet, everything's a sin

The old days sound awesome, sign me up

freshpopcorn

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Crap tv, crap food, no diversity, no internet, everything's a sin

The old days sound awesome, sign me up

No Ray Darcy either!

Ten of Swords

Every cloud... :pac:

jam_mac_jam

No working for women and no contraception as someone who was a single mother going to go for the second one. Money isn't everything. Would prefer freedom