SEAI grant question

G-spec

Hi



I'm coming to the end of a PCP deal on my Skoda Octavia and we want to switch to hybrid or plug in. Not quite ready to go all electric as the price jump for a decent sized model is significant. We were just considering the corrolla sports tourer but have been looking at the Niro PHEV. The Niro is well specced and while the boot is small the cabin is a decent size. My daily commute is approx 14km so the 50Km EV range is ideal, we've only put 28K on our 1.0 petrol Skoda in almost 3 years which is mostly city driving so we could take advantage of the EV range most of the time. We can home charge and would plan to get a night meter as well.



My question is regarding the SEAI grant. If we take the plunge now with a PHEV with the €5k grant then in 3 years I've heard that we would not be eligible for the grant again if we went full EV on a future car. Does anyone know if this is correct? Assuming it's still around in 3 years time that is. Not wanting to sound greedy looking for the grant twice but it helps bridge the price gap to an EV and not sure the prices will have dropped to ICE levels by then.

Mickeroo

G-spec wrote: »

Hi



I'm coming to the end of a PCP deal on my Skoda Octavia and we want to switch to hybrid or plug in. Not quite ready to go all electric as the price jump for a decent sized model is significant. We were just considering the corrolla sports tourer but have been looking at the Niro PHEV. The Niro is well specced and while the boot is small the cabin is a decent size. My daily commute is approx 14km so the 50Km EV range is ideal, we've only put 28K on our 1.0 petrol Skoda in almost 3 years which is mostly city driving so we could take advantage of the EV range most of the time. We can home charge and would plan to get a night meter as well.



My question is regarding the SEAI grant. If we take the plunge now with a PHEV with the €5k grant then in 3 years I've heard that we would not be eligible for the grant again if we went full EV on a future car. Does anyone know if this is correct? Assuming it's still around in 3 years time that is. Not wanting to sound greedy looking for the grant twice but it helps bridge the price gap to an EV and not sure the prices will have dropped to ICE levels by then.

Grant is tied to the car not the individual. As long as it's a brand new car you'll get it no matter how many you buy I think.

KCross

Mickeroo wrote: »

Grant is tied to the car not the individual. As long as it's a brand new car you'll get it no matter how many you buy I think.

Correct

Also, the grant for a PHEV is €2500, not €5000, but the grant is done by the car dealer so the price on the window is usually what you pay (i.e after grant)

G-spec

KCross wrote: »

Correct

Also, the grant for a PHEV is €2500, not €5000, but the grant is done by the car dealer so the price on the window is usually what you pay (i.e after grant)

Thanks, good to know the grant is on the car not the individual. The Kia website is saying €2.5K VRT & €5K SEAI grant for a total reduction of €7.5K. Can't imagine they would get this wrong?

KCross

G-spec wrote: »

Thanks, good to know the grant is on the car not the individual. The Kia website is saying €2.5K VRT & €5K SEAI grant for a total reduction of €7.5K. Can't imagine they would get this wrong?

Sorry, yes, its the VRT is 2500 instead of 5000. I mixed them up.


Bottomline, the sticker price from the dealer is what you pay.... grant and VRT exemptions are all accounted for. You dont claim them yourself.

Calahonda52

Have always viewed PHEVs as road tax reduction game, so time to learn a bit more

IIRC: a normal ICE is about 35% efficient when looked at from input energy /output energy.

How does it work in a PHEV?
ICE drives a generator which charges the battery, which drives the car up to a certain point and then reverse back to ICE or have I this wrong?

OP, night meter make not make sense unless your night time use is 1/3 or greater of total

KCross

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Have always viewed PHEVs as road tax reduction game, so time to learn a bit more

IIRC: a normal ICE is about 35% efficient when looked at from input energy /output energy.

How does it work in a PHEV?
ICE drives a generator which charges the battery, which drives the car up to a certain point and then reverse back to ICE or have I this wrong?

OP, night meter make not make sense unless your night time use is 1/3 or greater of total

Are you mixing up hybrid and plugin-hybrid?

PHEV does utilise regeneration to charge the battery but thats not what charges the battery. The idea is that you plug it in every night the same as a BEV.

The ICE only runs when you run out of EV range and/or you hammer the throttle in which case the ICE kicks in to give you the power boost.

Of course, EV range in a PHEV is quite small.... usually 30-50km depending on the car.


So, if you are regularly within the EV range your efficiency will be very high as it is effectively driving as a BEV. If you are regularly driving beyond the EV only range then your efficiency drops as the ICE will be kicking in.

Calahonda52

Thanks as always KC.

kanuseeme

OP whats the size difference/price between the phev or the fully electric Niro? why do you need the phev?

with your low mileage I would suggest not to fill it up, most phev's will start the petrol engine after a period of time to stop it going bad in the tank.

Seeing most of your driving is low and within commute range it could be a problem (waste of petrol).

G-spec

kanuseeme wrote: »

OP whats the size difference/price between the PHEV or the fully electric Niro? why do you need the PHEV?

with your low mileage I would suggest not to fill it up, most PHEV's will start the petrol engine after a period of time to stop it going bad in the tank.

Seeing most of your driving is low and within commute range it could be a problem (waste of petrol).

I don't need a PHEV but I do need to change my car by the end of September and I want to move on from an ICE. I want to wait until there are more main stream EV models available so it is hybrid or PHEV for now. The Niro seems like a good compromise of space for the price. The e-Niro is another €2.5k for the short-range model but there is no stock until 2020.

KCross

Have you driven the Niro PHEV?

I wouldn’t class it as sporty!

But it is a nice car and will be frugal and would suit your driving while giving flexibility for long journeys without the need for charging.

If it suits you go for it, but do test drive for a few days first.

unkel

I'd be careful about buying a brand new PHEV is you plan to sell it on in the next few years. It will lose its value a lot quicker than a BEV. If you are going to keep it for a long time, it's fine. It depends of course on your driving pattern, if you have to do regular long distance driving, you might not want to depend on the public charging network as you do with a BEV. That said, the network is already improving (Ionity) and charging for charging on the ESB network is likely to free it up to a large extent.

Also beware that if you drive in a bit of a sporty way / drive in a hilly area / have the car full of people, you will use the petrol engine a lot of the time as the power of the electric drivetrain is very small

KCross

unkel wrote: »

I'd be careful about buying a brand new PHEV is you plan to sell it on in the next few years. It will lose its value a lot quicker than a BEV.

Maybe. Maybe not. Its hard to tell how the market will evolve. I think there will be as many PHEV models hitting the market in the years ahead as BEV's.

We'd all like to see long range BEV's at affordable cost being the majority but it doesnt appear to be happening. Even if VAG come good on their promises thats still just one manufacturer. Everyone doesnt want to buy a VAG.

I think PHEV will maintain its value fine.

unkel wrote: »

Also beware that if you drive in a bit of a sporty way / drive in a hilly area / have the car full of people, you will use the petrol engine a lot of the time as the power of the electric drivetrain is very small

hmm, I've driven a few now. I wouldnt say its "alot of the time" or "very small".

If you look for alot of power it will kick in, thats to be expected but the EV drivetrain, on the Niro PHEV at least, isnt that bad that it cant go up a hill or carry 5 people... but if you are the type to demand max power off the line everyday then yeah it will kick in the engine for a few seconds while it gets the speed up.... once you are at speed, even motorway speed, the EV drivetrain is more than capable of keeping the car at 120km/h and still get high mpg on the motorway.

unkel

drving miss Daisy -> PHEV
not driving miss Daisy -> BEV

Kramer

unkel wrote: »

drving miss Daisy -> PHEV
not driving miss Daisy -> BEV

I wouldn't say all PHEVs are slow............mine isn't too slow anyway :cool:.

I think PHEVs will become more popular in the short to medium term too & until more models are available in BEVs - crossovers/SUVs etc.
Oh, & until BEVs become more affordable - €50k now for most new BEVs, before tax funded subsidy for the manufacturers (€10k).

KCross

unkel wrote: »

drving miss Daisy -> PHEV
not driving miss Daisy -> BEV

I think you’ve quoted the zeroto60times website before to prove the might of your Ioniq. You should look up the PHEVs... you might surprise yourself!

unkel

Niro PHEV has 170NM from the electric motor and maybe about 40NM from the petrol engine at idle. eNiro has 395NM at idle. Official figures for 0-100km/h (zeroto60times doesn't have the figures yet) are 10.8s (slow, and using lots of petrol) and 7.8s (mildly fast, zero emissions, almost zero costs)

PHEV really is just a passing phase. Would suit some people, but I would be very careful buying a brand new one >€30k as in just a few years time, it will become very clear it's neither here nor there. Worst of both worlds (but better than diesel)

kanuseeme

People would be wary about committing to a BEV, it would suit some people better than others for sure, a one car family for example, but as you said (I think) it will decades before the country switches completely to non ice cars.

One annoying thing about some PHEVs is that the heating system works with the engine only which means that in the cool weather the engine will have to run even with the fully charged battery. Not sure about the air conditioning. Toyota uses electric compressor anyway but they don't really do PHEVs

In case of Niro specifically apart from the heating, a colleague also have had issues with the 12V battery getting flat when minimising the usage of ICE. So there a can be some compromises.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Niro PHEV has 170NM from the electric motor and maybe about 40NM from the petrol engine at idle. eNiro has 395NM at idle. Official figures for 0-100km/h (zeroto60times doesn't have the figures yet) are 10.8s (slow, and using lots of petrol) and 7.8s (mildly fast, zero emissions, almost zero costs)

You're dancing around the numbers!

The Ioniq BEV is 8.4s on that website. The Niro PHEV is 9s... hardly what you'd call driving miss daisy or significantly worse than the Ioniq. That was the point.

Of course, its not zero emissions doing that 9s but the point is if you need the power you can have it.


I just believe you've characterised PHEV's in a way that is not based on reality.

unkel wrote: »

PHEV really is just a passing phase. Would suit some people, but I would be very careful buying a brand new one >€30k as in just a few years time, it will become very clear it's neither here nor there. Worst of both worlds (but better than diesel)

True, but it will be a passing phase of about 20years!

Have you bought into the govt spin of 1m EV's on our roads by 2030?! Thats not going to happen.

The only ones outside of Tesla that have a significant BEV plan are VW. They plan to sell 1m BEV's per year by 2025... thats 10% of their output!!! What do you think the other 90% is!

What do you think all the others are going to be producing?
Mass EV adoption is a long way away hence depreciation shouldnt be an issue.

Put another way, I'd rather be selling a secondhand PHEV in 2030 than a diesel! Which do you think would be harder to sell in 2030?

PHEV does have compromises. You still have to service an ICE but the primary benefits are still there with zero emissions on local runs (its primary target market) and its silent and thats all good.

PHEV's have a specific market that they suit. Its not the solution for everyone.

You should be encouraging it tbh, not casting them in a bad light.

KCross

samih wrote: »

One annoying thing about some PHEVs is that the heating system works with the engine only which means that in the cool weather the engine will have to run even with the fully charged battery. Not sure about the air conditioning. Toyota uses electric compressor anyway but they don't really do PHEVs

Thats stupid alright. I dont know why they do that. They should at least have cabin pre-conditioning off the mains. Big miss, imo.

I think it is just for heating. I think a/c is off the battery.

samih wrote: »

In case of Niro specifically apart from the heating, a colleague also have had issues with the 12V battery getting flat when minimising the usage of ICE. So there a can be some compromises.

Yea, some compromises alright. Life is a compromise. BEV doesnt have all the answers either.... long charge times, degrading batteries, high purchase price. It is what it is.

You take whats available and buy what suits you.

Mickeroo

unkel wrote: »

Niro PHEV has 170NM from the electric motor and maybe about 40NM from the petrol engine at idle. eNiro has 395NM at idle. Official figures for 0-100km/h (zeroto60times doesn't have the figures yet) are 10.8s (slow, and using lots of petrol) and 7.8s (mildly fast, zero emissions, almost zero costs)

PHEV really is just a passing phase. Would suit some people, but I would be very careful buying a brand new one >€30k as in just a few years time, it will become very clear it's neither here nor there. Worst of both worlds (but better than diesel)

People will more readily move to PHEVs over full BEV I would think. I think the governments plan was misleading in how they worded things and when they say no new diesel/petrol cars after 2030 they are not including PHEVs in that.

KCross

Mickeroo wrote: »

People will more readily move to PHEVs over full BEV I would think. I think the governments plan was misleading in how they worded things and when they say no new diesel/petrol cars after 2030 they are not including PHEVs in that.

I think PHEV's will improve alot in the next few years too. The 30km PHEV's arent that useful (although better than nothing) but I think there will be quite a few coming with 50-80km EV range. That will tick alot of boxes for people.

And putting on my manufacturers hat... if I have X kWh's of expensive batteries available will I manufacture one long range BEV (60kWh+) or 6 PHEV's that have a gCO2 figure of <50 when the EU Target is 95!... and which also allows me to keep my engine plant and service dept's running.... I know which I'd pick.

kanuseeme

There is a lot they could do to improve phev's, nice to have the extra range , if they could charge them as fast as some of the newer BEV'S, one can do 80 km in an outlander with one fast charge, I know it bothers some of you, but when no one is using it and you have time, whats the harm in it?

Lots of this boils down to price and availability. If you could buy a 400 km range BEV for the same price (or say 5k more than a ICE version) and there were more models available I think very few would bother with a PHEV. This is even the folk that did long distances if the charging network was up to a scratch, which it soon will be.

The problem with PHEVs is that they add lots of complexity and packaging issues having to pack both drivetrains. Just compare of the likes of IONIQ vs Tesla Model 3 for packaging. The latter has boot on both ends and lots of interior space in comparison in a package of similar size. And the longer the range under battery is the more redundant the ICE part becomes. So you end up lugging a 1.4-2.0 liter engine with a weaker than BEV electric propulsion system with you all the time slowing you down for the occasional need where you could just stop for 30 minutes for coffee instead. And with the shorter range PHEV you are constantly driving like miss daisy to keep within the even meager power and range envelope due to limitations of the small battery. And in both cases you end up paying for service of the very underused petrol engine.

If you drive weekly from Belfast to Cork or tow stuff get a hybrid/diesel. If you have a large family get a people carrier (or two smaller cars). For a regular family if you typically drive 200 km or less at the time get a LEAF/IONIQ/(eGolf is bit spendy and smallish inside but even better otherwise) for the same price than eNiro. Then for the bi-yearly long trip to West just budget some extra coffee breaks. Of if you can stomach the price of 40k buy the full electric Niro and have even less coffee breaks.

KCross

samih wrote: »

Lots of this boils down to price and availability. If you could buy a 400 km range BEV for the same price (or say 5k more than a ICE version) and there were more models available I think very few would bother with a PHEV. This is even the folk that did long distances if the charging network was up to a scratch, which it soon will be.

For sure. But whats the reality?!!!

samih wrote: »

The problem with PHEVs is that they add lots of complexity and packaging issues having to pack both drivetrains. Just compare of the likes of IONIQ vs Tesla Model 3 for packaging. The latter has boot on both ends and lots of interior space in comparison in a package of similar size. And the longer the range under battery is the more redundant the ICE part becomes. So you end up lugging a 1.4-2.0 liter engine with a weaker than BEV electric propulsion system with you all the time slowing you down for the occasional need where you could just stop for 30 minutes for coffee instead. And with the shorter range PHEV you are constantly driving like miss daisy to keep within the even meager power and range envelope due to limitations of the small battery. And in both cases you end up paying for service of the very underused petrol engine.

Surely thats a good thing that we should all want to see?

The thing about the 30min stop is that people dont want that forced on them.

samih wrote: »

If you drive weekly from Belfast to Cork or tow stuff get a hybrid/diesel. If you have a large family get a people carrier (or two smaller cars). For a regular family if you typically drive 200 km or less at the time get a LEAF/IONIQ/(eGolf is bit spendy and smallish inside but even better otherwise) for the same price than eNiro. Then for the bi-yearly long trip to West just budget some extra coffee breaks. Of if you can stomach the price of 40k buy the full electric Niro and have even less coffee breaks.

Not much to disagree with in any of what you've said there samih. It is down to price/availability and therein lies the problem!

Most of the cars you've mentioned are €40-50k cars or else they are short range!

The reality is that batteries are expensive and a manufacturer can deliver a PHEV (complexity an all) with a 50km EV range cheaper than it can deliver a long range BEV.

So, we can discuss the merits and ups and down all we like but the price of BEV's is the elephant in the room. When you can buy a 60kWh EV for <€30k, PHEV will go the way of the dodo.


And let me reiterate, PHEV is only suitable for a subset of the market. If you are regularly driving it beyond its daily range its not the right car. Buy BEV if that suits. Buy diesel if that suits. Its not a zero sum game.

KCross

Mickeroo wrote: »

I think the governments plan was misleading in how they worded things and when they say no new diesel/petrol cars after 2030 they are not including PHEVs in that.

That is a good point.

From the climate action plan...

Accelerate the take up of EV cars and vans so that we reach 100% of all new cars and vans are EVs by 2030. This will enable achieving our target of 950,000 EVs on the road by 2030. This means approximately one third of all vehicles sold during the decade will be Battery Electric Vehicle (BEV) or Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle (PHEV)

And looking at some of the other tables in the plan they expect more PHEV's sold upto 2025 than BEV's, with BEV's passing out PHEV's by 2030 (550k vs 290k). I presume they have some underlying data (probably from the manufacturers) to support that.

KCross

KCross wrote: »

ost of the cars you've mentioned are €40-50k cars or else they are short range!

The reality is that batteries are expensive and a manufacturer can deliver a PHEV (complexity an all) with a 50km EV range cheaper than it can deliver a long range BEV.

I specifically mentiond the likes of LEAF (40) and Ioniq as they are roughly the same price after subsidies as their ICE or hybrid counterparts. If you compare the LEAF SV and Qashqai SV for example there is only a very small difference in price between them and they are pretty much identical in size too. If you are on the market for a new car and you can charge at home or work and only occasionally drive over 200 km a day instead of looking to buy a PHEV you should really consider a full BEV instead.

A 30k BEV if fit for your driving needs has no drawbacks over the 30k hybrid. It's a winner all around. A 40k BEV has that extra 10-15k which makes the payback time very long if you are a low mileage driver whereas a 30k one is cheaper from the day 1 regardless the mileage.

KCross

samih wrote: »

I specifically mentiond the likes of LEAF (40) and Ioniq as they are roughly the same price after subsidies as their ICE or hybrid counterparts. If you compare the LEAF SV and Qashqai SV for example there is only a very small difference in price between them and they are pretty much identical in size too. If you are on the market for a new car and you can charge at home or work and only occasionally drive over 200 km a day instead of looking to buy a PHEV you should really consider a full BEV instead.

A 30k BEV if fit for your driving needs has no drawbacks over the 30k hybrid. It's a winner all around. A 40k BEV has that extra 10-15k which makes the payback time very long if you are a low mileage driver whereas a 30k one is cheaper from the day 1 regardless the mileage.

100%
If you can make a BEV work you should buy it over an ICE or PHEV for similar money... or even if its marginally more expensive it would still make sense.

However, alot of people wont be willing to drive a <200km BEV, particularly if its their only car or if they do long journeys a few times a year or if they take the ferry to UK/France....just as a few examples.... what should those people buy?

Telling people to suck it up and take a 30min coffee break or hire a car for those occasions just doesnt/isnt working. We need to be realistic with what the market is willing to accept.

kanuseeme

samih wrote: »

I specifically mentiond the likes of LEAF (40) and Ioniq as they are roughly the same price after subsidies as their ICE or hybrid counterparts. If you compare the LEAF SV and Qashqai SV for example there is only a very small difference in price between them and they are pretty much identical in size too. If you are on the market for a new car and you can charge at home or work and only occasionally drive over 200 km a day instead of looking to buy a PHEV you should really consider a full BEV instead.

A 30k BEV if fit for your driving needs has no drawbacks over the 30k hybrid. It's a winner all around. A 40k BEV has that extra 10-15k which makes the payback time very long if you are a low mileage driver whereas a 30k one is cheaper from the day 1 regardless the mileage.

I did not believe you about the size leaf V Qashqai, i had to check myself, to think a few cm can alter your perception of a car.

https://www.automobiledimension.com/nissan-car-dimensions.html

kanuseeme

kanuseeme wrote: »

I did not believe you about the size leaf V Qashqai, i had to check myself, to think a few cm can alter your perception of a car.

https://www.automobiledimension.com/nissan-car-dimensions.html

Yea, people always think that LEAF is a Micra. But in reality the wheelbase which determines a lot how much usable space there is in the car is huge in comparison. 2700 mm is similar than for example the first gen SAAB 9-5 (2703 mm) which I had before the LEAFs.

this.lad

How long is it taking dealers to get the grant approved by the SEAI?

My guy tells me that the application for my car is on the system but not moving and that there are applications in since before mine still not moved either.

Doesn't look like I'll be picking up my car any day next week at this rate.