high-court-blocks-marriage-of-man-with-i

JustAThought

The man himself also confided in a friend that he did not want to get married. Isn't that enough? No doubt the also intellectually disabled bride and her mother were super-enthuiastic but we all know people who got steamrolled or eent along with something they were unhappy with. Surely a lifelong commitment and marriage should not be one of these :especially when the pressurised groom is saying in advance that hedoes not want to be married.

AndrewJRenko

JustAThought wrote: »

The man himself also confided in a friend that he did not want to get married. Isn't that enough? No doubt the also intellectually disabled bride and her mother were super-enthuiastic but we all know people who got steamrolled or eent along with something they were unhappy with. Surely a lifelong commitment and marriage should not be one of these :especially when the pressurised groom is saying in advance that hedoes not want to be married.

No, a 'hearsay' statement from a friend really isn't enough. If that's enough, you're creating a situation where any friend can make up any statement to maintain control over a person with an intellectual disability.

BattleCorp wrote: »

I doubt the psychiatrist and psychologist and the man's family rushed to judgement on the issue. The psychiatrist and psychologist would have interviewed the man, examined his case history etc. They didn't make their decisions based on limited information on the internet. I'm fairly sure the man's family would have known him too.

I'm not assuming anything about the man. I'm not saying that the man doesn't have the capacity to get married as I don't know him but I'm happy to accept the judgement of medical professionals on the matter.

I'm neither a psychiatrist or a psychologist but I'm pretty sure that they would have ways of testing a person's mental capacity. They are medical professionals after all. So whatever testing the doctor/psychologist did, that testing established that the man didn't have the capacity to consent to marriage.

Regarding testing, I am happy to assume that people have the capacity to consent to marriage unless it is established that they lack capacity. For people with intellectual disability, one example of testing is the NHS Mental Capacity Assessment Tool, the guidance document for which I have posted a link to below.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

nobody here knows this person. But the 2 doctors who decided that they do not have mental capacity do know them. There was no need to assume anything. we knew they did not have mental capacity. It said so in the article.

I've seen enough cases of psychiatrists and psychologists making limiting assessments on people with intellectual disabilities. I've seen assessments stating that the person could never live independently with appropriate supports, or that the person could never have productive employment, where the person has gone on to prove those assessments to be way wrong.



Assessments can often be ultra conservative, and can reflect as much about the person's personal prejudices as they reflect clinical assessments.


I've seen families who, at best, have been conditioned by a lifetime of dealing with professional to have the lowest possible expectations, and at worst, are keen to retain the cash cow of regular disability allowance and carers allowance coming in to the family.

BattleCorp wrote: »

Regarding testing, I am happy to assume that people have the capacity to consent to marriage unless it is established that they lack capacity. For people with intellectual disability, one example of testing is the NHS Mental Capacity Assessment Tool, the guidance document for which I have posted a link to below.

This ignores the issue of the many people of low IQ levels that live independent lives and will never have been assessed for 'capacity'. It's a bit of a 'see no evil' approach.

Odhinn

slipperyox wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/high-court-blocks-marriage-of-man-with-intellectual-disabilities-38238727.html

Why are charities in Ireland given so much credence?

It's not just the charity saying. From your article above

A psychiatric report last month which concluded the man lacked capacity to marry followed reports by psychologists last March also deeming him to lack capacity.

ohnonotgmail

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

No, a 'hearsay' statement from a friend really isn't enough. If that's enough, you're creating a situation where any friend can make up any statement to maintain control over a person with an intellectual disability.





I've seen enough cases of psychiatrists and psychologists making limiting assessments on people with intellectual disabilities. I've seen assessments stating that the person could never live independently with appropriate supports, or that the person could never have productive employment, where the person has gone on to prove those assessments to be way wrong.



Assessments can often be ultra conservative, and can reflect as much about the person's personal prejudices as they reflect clinical assessments.

complains about hearsay and then introduces hearsay.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I've seen families who, at best, have been conditioned by a lifetime of dealing with professional to have the lowest possible expectations, and at worst, are keen to retain the cash cow of regular disability allowance and carers allowance coming in to the family.

this is nothing to do with the expectations of family. The decision is based on the professional judgement of multiple professionals. Who else do you think should make this decision?

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

This ignores the issue of the many people of low IQ levels that live independent lives and will never have been assessed for 'capacity'. It's a bit of a 'see no evil' approach.

irrelevant. this person was assessed for capacity and was found not to possess it