Introducing the Current Affairs/IMHO forum

KyussB

That's just whatabouery, snoop. The behaviour I describe, is trolling no matter what '-ism' is deployed - and no matter what 'side' it comes from. It's based on the deployment of an '-ism' being so farcical, that it's just not credible that the poster believes it themselves - which is the type of bad faith posting at the core of trolling.

I'm not even asking mods to get involved - because I know that would turn into a shitshow - I'm asking is there a point when that behaviour is considered trolling, by mods - not to get involved actioning anything.

i mean look yes in a sense its fair to call it whataboutery

in another, its the actual context, custom/practice, whatever you want to call it and in that sense it's relevant imo to look beyond that instance and ask that if the complaint was to be thrown out against all such behaviours, what are we looking at?

tbh i cant see much use in bringing one instance of a complaint up in a thread like this *without* looking at it in a more complete way.

KyussB

Ok, but can you show me another '-ism' consistently being deployed in a farcical way, where it's not credible that a poster believes what they're saying (and obviously, where it's not just satire) - and this being sustained on/off over many pages? (rather than the comparison just being made e.g. once)

Not saying it doesn't happen, but I don't think it'll be comparing like-with-like.

Outlaw Pete

KyussB wrote: »

Here is - literally - the list of things that are considered Communist:

I'm not even joking - these are the things that have illicited branding of views, as Communist - by like, at least 4-5 posters. It's fucking bizarre.

And the list of things which often result in a user being labelled a racist or a fascist is equally as long, if not longer, and I can assure you that those who have these labels foisted upon them find them equally as infuriating as those who are unjustifiably called commies. Only recently in the Politics forum I was told that my not accepting that Donald Trump is a racist means I am a racist too. It's not one way traffic.

These lazy labels are being flung left and right (literally, as well as figuratively) all over Boards and for sure mostly they are lazy and nonsensical as rarely will a user have said anything which will have justified such a scurrilous claim. It is, of course, generally though just a last ditch attempt at discrediting a user as more often than not they're indulged in by those who have very little else to say in the way of a retort.

The way I look at it is this: as long as mods are being even handed, well then that is the most important thing. Where mods draw the line is not nearly as important (imo) as them subjecting all users to the same standard of posting. You suggest that you want mods to action someone that implies a user is a communist. Fine, but then mods will have to action all suggestions that a user is a fascist / racist too. You can't action one and not the other. If you do, then you will be subjected one side to rules which the other side is not and that just results in animosity.

Personally I think the more left leaning users should just learn to take it on the chin a bit more. The rest of us have had to grow accustomed to the regular character assassination attempts over the years. What makes you lot so special. If nothing else, actioning such claims would make moderaton a hell of a lot harder as mods would have to scroll back through multiple posts on a regular basis to see if a user has said anything to have warranted them being labelled a commie or a fascist.

Personally, I kinda like that users can claim I'm a racist or a fascist without it resulting in them being actioned, as making such unwarranted claims make them look irrational and so again I say what I said to the mod before: if users make ridiculous claims (as you're alleging such claims to be) then it shouldn't be too hard to make short work of them and show that what they've suggested is utterly preposterous and totally without grounds.

KyussB

I mean, it's whataboutery again - the things which trigger red-baiting, are not comparable to things which trigger branding of other '-isms' (in the former, the level of farcical comparisons, to the point that it is not credible that the poster believes what they are saying, is notably different) - and the branding of other '-isms', isn't usually used to encourage mobbing/backslapping and obstruction of debate in the way that red-baiting is.

Again, I don't want mod intervention - I'd report posts if I did - but I do want to know when something is considered as crossing over into trolling. Big difference between the occasional once-off throwing around of an '-ism' (who cares...) - and it becoming a consistent, near-endlessly-repeated response, in lieu of actual arguments, and combined with mobbing (starting to get a lot closer to trolling).

KyussB

KyussB wrote: »

I mean, it's whataboutery again - the things which trigger red-baiting, are not comparable to things which trigger branding of other '-isms'

your opinion

(in the former, the level of farcical comparisons, to the point that it is not credible that the poster believes what they are saying, is notably different)

projection, opinion

- and the branding of other '-isms', isn't usually used to encourage mobbing/backslapping and obstruction of debate in the way that red-baiting is.

yes it is. constantly.

Outlaw Pete

KyussB wrote: »

I mean, it's whataboutery again - the things which trigger red-baiting, are not comparable to things which trigger branding of other '-isms'

Of course they're bloody comparable. What are you on about.

At the end of the day a user being called a commie (or similar) because of the views they've expressed is no different than a user being labelled a racist or a fascist because of the views they have expressed.

Those that throw out these unjust labels will both use the same excuse too: that they were justified in doing so based on the content of the user's posts.

And those labelled either a commie or a racist will also question the sincerity of the accusation in the same way, making the call that it is clear trolling given that they will feel they have not posted anything which warranted the accusation that they're a commie or a racist.

It's absurd that you would suggest your grievance should be discussed in isolation when the commonalities with what others so similarly have to deal with whilst posting is crystal clear. You just don't want to be associated with those complaining about being called a racist.

Tough, they're both sides of the one coin.

gozunda

KyussB wrote: »

I mean, it's whataboutery again - the things which trigger red-baiting, are not comparable to things which trigger branding of other '-isms' (in the former, the level of farcical comparisons, to the point that it is not credible that the poster believes what they are saying, is notably different) - and the branding of other '-isms', isn't usually used to encourage mobbing/backslapping and obstruction of debate in the way that red-baiting is. Again, I don't want mod intervention - I'd report posts if I did - but I do want to know when something is considered as crossing over into trolling. Big difference between the occasional once-off throwing around of an '-ism' (who cares...) - and it becoming a consistent, near-endlessly-repeated response, in lieu of actual arguments, and combined with mobbing (starting to get a lot closer to trolling).

You are so hung up on your theme of 'isms' you have become completely blind to the fact that in the discussions to which you refer to - you have l laid out a centrally controlled collective labour political state system.

No one is calling you a 'communist' btw - from what I have seen in the threads to which you refer posters are saying that the political system you are advocating as an alleged solution to climate change is. Do you understand that?

If the political system closest to what you are proposing is in fact 'communism' - then that is not the fault of those who point those similarities out. That you do not like people highlighting this is the case is immaterial and irrelevant.

If you really want to show that your ideas are not a form of 'communism' (for want of a better word) - then set out your stall and show how the political / state system you are proposing is not a form of communism. So far you have completely failed to do so - as far as I can see.

How can you seriously continue to accuse posters of being mean to you and being trolls" when your grievance in reality lies in a failure to defend your argument in any shape or form? And that's the issue in a nutshell.

As for the repeated denial of any wish for mod action, then it has to be asked - then why the constant repetition of the same again and again and asking it to be labelled trolling and therefore actionable? Tbh the contant whinging is little more than ridiculous at this point.

Sonny noggs

KyussB wrote: »

Is red-baiting - i.e. everything being constantly reduced to equating it with Communism - considered a form of trolling?

That's pretty much the level of discussion.

Look at this shite:
https://twitter.com/GrrrGraphics/status/1167127261377548288

Efforts to fight climate change are a Communist conspiracy don't you know!

I don't actually want any mod intervention - that's a rube goldberg machine of bullshit to come - but I am curious if this is viewed as trolling.

How is this different to accusing anyone right of centre of being alt right or far-right or worse still fascist or racist?

KyussB

gozunda wrote: »

You are so hung up on your theme of 'isms' you have become completely blind to the fact that in the discussions to which you refer to - you have l laid out a centrally controlled collective labour political state system.

No one is calling you a 'communist' btw - from what I have seen in the threads to which you refer posters are saying that the political system you are advocating as an alleged solution to climate change is. Do you understand that?

If the political system closest to what you are proposing is in fact 'communism' - then that is not the fault of those who point those similarities out. That you do not like people highlighting this is the case is immaterial and irrelevant.

If you really want to show that your ideas are not a form of 'communism' (for want of a better word) - then set out your stall and show how the political / state system you are proposing is not a form of communism. So far you have completely failed to do so - as far as I can see.

How can you seriously continue to accuse posters of being mean to you and being trolls" when your grievance in reality lies in a failure to defend your argument in any shape or form? And that's the issue in a nutshell.

As for the repeated denial of any wish for mod action, then it has to be asked - then why the constant repetition of the same again and again and asking it to be labelled trolling and therefore actionable? Tbh the contant whinging is little more than ridiculous at this point.

The fuck...it even follows into this thread - zero argument, just a statement that I expressed views of a "centrally controlled collective labour political state system" that this poster themselves knows full well that I did not express - they know that not a single part of any of my posts referred to collective labour, nor central control.

It's precisely the same as accusing a person of advocating e.g. eugenics, when they never said anything like that in their posts, and therefore they are racist/fascist.

Not only that, but this statement made without any attempt at backing it up, then has the burden of proof flipped completely 180 - so that I'm supposed to prove a negative - that I didn't say that...

That's not a valid "difference of opinion" - that is flat out making shit up, that the poster 100% knows is untrue, with no evidence/backup, then saying the burden of proof is on the accused to disprove it - and that is what sets it apart from every other example of accusation of an '-ism' thrown around.

Show me anything remotely comparable to that. Tell me how that is not tantamount to trolling...

batgoat

I would say the forum has managed to end up becoming incredibly toxic in a pretty short space of time. The thread about "compulsory homosexuality" which related to a batty polish publication ended up becoming a dumping ground for homophobia.

The numerous migration or refugee related threads are similarly desperate. And they're not moderate views, they're closer to "coming here to rape women".. Or here's one of latest rather nasty insinuations. It's basically the wild west of ****ty views.

Gay men too. Who else wants to see a bunch of fit young African men hanging around with no real prospects and no way to earn money.

osarusan

batgoat wrote: »

I would say the forum has managed to end up becoming incredibly toxic in a pretty short space of time.

It has become the absolute sh!thole everybody knew it would become.


Far, far too much leniency given to posters whose intent to do nothing other than post in bad faith and spew shyte is obvious after just a few posts.

Sonny noggs

osarusan wrote: »

It has become the absolute sh!thole everybody knew it would become.


Far, far too much leniency given to posters whose intent to do nothing other than post in bad faith and spew shyte is obvious after just a few posts.

Agreed. The amount of posters that throw out accusations of racism at the drop of a hat to stifle discussion on any topic they don’t like being discussed is sickening. They need to be called out and carded to get this bad faith behaviour under control.

gozunda

KyussB wrote: »

The fuck*...it even follows into this thread - zero argument, just a statement that I expressed views of a "centrally controlled collective labour political state system" that this poster themselves knows full well that I did not express - they know that not a single part of any of my posts referred to collective labour, nor central control. It's precisely the same as accusing a person of advocating e.g. eugenics, when they never said anything like that in their posts, and therefore they are racist/fascist.Not only that, but this statement made without any attempt at backing it up, then has the burden of proof flipped completely 180 - so that I'm supposed to prove a negative - that I didn't say that.That's not a valid "difference of opinion" - that is flat out making shit* up, that the poster 100% knows is untrue, with no evidence/backup, then saying the burden of proof is on the accused to disprove it - and that is what sets it apart from every other example of accusation of an '-ism' thrown around.Show me anything remotely comparable to that. Tell me how that is not tantamount to trolling...

It is you who have brought up this very issue here. I agree it's defintly not the place to attack others because your argument does not stand up to scrutiny.

However let's have the full facts not just your opinion on it. It's not one poster saying the political system you are trying to promote is akin to communism. More importantly you have failed to show otherwise despite being asked to do so.

Specifically you have called for "direct government involvement and spending in the economy" - you have also called for the "massive mobilization of labour" by the government. How is any of that not a call for a centrally controlled / collective labour political state system? Link

And the scale of what you are proposing that governments wield political/economic power to mobilize workers at a 'massive' scale 

KyussB wrote:

This has to be done at a scale and in a timely enough manner, that the private sector has proven itself incapable of - which means it requires direct government action to achieve this

Posters pointing this out are not being mean and your accusations of trolling are simply puerile at best.

And the funniest thing of all is no one absolutely no one is calling you a "communist". If they have please detail where.

So yes there is no reason for the throwing such daft accusations here other than attempting to win an argument by proxy and labeling anyone who disagrees with you a troll.

KyussB

Direct government creation of jobs/work and employing people, and spending to do this, is equated as Communist (apparently making the entire world Communist) - massively mobilizing i.e. employing and directing workers on large projects, also equated as Communist (again, every country that has ever engaged in a large infrastructure project, i.e. all of them once again, must be Communist...).

Posters claiming I want the whole economy run this way (as that's what a command economy is), when I don't - i.e. completely making shit up that they know is untrue - in order to pin the Communist label.

The burden of proof, flipped 180 on to the person accused of putting out Communist views - when it's meant to lay with the person accusing.

Multiple people mobbing a person with Comunism accusations, equated with being proof that the views are Communist - when that makes zero sense.

These are really clear examples of bad faith argument, and trolling.

batgoat

Sonny noggs wrote: »

Agreed. The amount of posters that throw out accusations of racism at the drop of a hat to stifle discussion on any topic they don’t like being discussed is sickening. They need to be called out and carded to get this bad faith behaviour under control.

Thing is, there are plenty of posters who are racist and seem to be given a lot of leeway.

KyussB

And the latest edition - within minutes of reading/posting on Feedback, this particular poster dumps in that thread:
"No thanks. Sounds a bit like communism. The free market is better."

No argument, nothing, just the red-baiting shite, right after reading Feedback...almost like they read this thread, and and then decided to post that :rolleyes:

Sonny noggs

batgoat wrote: »

Thing is, there are plenty of posters who are racist and seem to be given a lot of leeway.

Not really. You thinking someone is racist doesn’t make someone racist.

batgoat

batgoat wrote: »

Thing is, there are plenty of posters who are racist and seem to be given a lot of leeway.

who decides

and how much leeway

these are quite literally the issues

KyussB

See, this is the purpose of the whataboutery regarding racism/fascism (and other general '-ism's) as well: I'm nailing very clear examples of trolling through red-baiting, and the whataboutery is springing a discussion that attempts to muddy that.

kyuss i think youve made it clear that you dont think your ideas are communist

i think everyone has kind of addressed that within a fair context of "people get to make incorrect statements, sometimes disingenuously, sometimes down to a simple disagreement"

you keep coming back saying "yes but look this isnt communist they shouldnt be allowed say im communist"

i really dunno what would suit you at this stage bar everyone agreeing with you that your ideas arent communist, but that really doesnt seem like a fair use of an overarching thread on the overall use of an entire forum tbh

Sonny noggs

This is a feedback thread to discuss the Current Affairs Forum.

gozunda

KyussB wrote: »

See, this is the purpose of the whataboutery regarding racism/fascism (and other general '-ism's) as well: I'm nailing very clear examples of trolling through red-baiting, and the whataboutery is springing a discussion that attempts to muddy that.

Nope. You've failed to even do that. If you put up some grand scheme to cure the world of its ills - expect it to be held up to scrutiny and be prepared to defend it. Which you clearly haven't done and are now screaming here that people are being mean to you...

Unfortunately it looks like the whole thing has fallen flat on its face before it even got out of the box...

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

KyussB

Deleted User wrote: »

kyuss i think youve made it clear that you dont think your ideas are communist

i think everyone has kind of addressed that within a fair context of "people get to make incorrect statements, sometimes disingenuously, sometimes down to a simple disagreement"

you keep coming back saying "yes but look this isnt communist they shouldnt be allowed say im communist"

i really dunno what would suit you at this stage bar everyone agreeing with you that your ideas arent communist, but that really doesnt seem like a fair use of an overarching thread on the overall use of an entire forum tbh

I'm not saying/advocating what people should and should not be allowed to say - I'm making an argument about when overall behaviour crosses the line into trolling.

I'm fine with a few instances of being labelled Communist, and taking the piss out of that - which I did in the thread (I definitely don't want any mod intervention over stuff like that, that would be way over the top) - but it's gone past that, and is now being used in lieu of argument, in order to shut down the discussion/debate - even long after I discredited the comparisons, in the thread.

There is persistence, here - there is an unresponsiveness to counterarguments showing how my views don't fit with that - and there is the replacemment of real arguments, with accusations of Communism - and it is coupled with mobbing behaviour.

You don't get that with other '-isms'. This is something more.

i dont think we're getting through to each other

you think im arguing with you about the instance

ten or twelve posts in a row now im saying hey lookit the instance isnt really anything anyone here seems interested in debating with you, but your overall point doesnt seem to hold up as a special case against all the other kneejerk/antagonistic misrepresentation of opposition points of view on every contentious topic across the site since well years ago

i dont see that its new or that its in any way more or less insidious as the other behaviours you seem to think arent an issue

PeadarCo

KyussB wrote: »

No argument, nothing, just the red-baiting shite, right after reading Feedback...almost like they read this thread, and and then decided to post that :rolleyes:

Having debated with you under previous usernames(not an issue just highlighting the context) the reality is some of your theories are very much against the grain to say the least. Within reason that's not an issue and it's actually very good to see a variety of different opinions. However expect people to challenge them and don't expect everyone to agree with you.

Just because someone disagrees with a poster does not mean they are trolling. ln most cases there are certain judgements that posters make that are different and leads to different stances. This can lead to some very interesting debates as different issues get teased out. Automatically calling everyone who disagrees with you/any other poster a troll is just asking for censorship. There are plenty of echo chambers on the Internet for any poster who doesn't want to have their opinions challenged. Thankfully Boards is not one of them.

Beasty

This thread is for discussion of the Current Affairs forum, and not to debate any personal views/beliefs of what is or is not acceptable. Please get back on topic

Any questions PM me - do not respond to this post in-thread

Thanks

Blueshoe

Anyway. Back on topic.

The current affairs forum, I like it

Stop moaning ffs

You have three or four very obvious trolls running riot and unchecked in the brexit thread. It’s gone to derailed hell

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057993229/91/#post111158772

batgoat

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

You have three or four very obvious trolls running riot and unchecked in the brexit thread. It’s gone to derailed hell

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057993229/91/#post111158772

Seems to be a fair few of those trolls that are covering loads of threads.