Bullying a crime

Would it be possible to make bullying a crime? or is it too hard to define and would it make any difference if it was a crime?

Seth Brundle

Bullying can be anything from physical attacks right through to snide comments.
Too difficult to legislate for IMO.

You could also have a group bully an individual and it becomes one word against many.

Strumms

Harassment IS a crime. I guess you’d need to decipher the difference between ‘bullying’ and ‘harassment’ of which I don’t imagine there is a huge difference if any.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/26/enacted/en/print#sec10

RobbieTheRobber

Strumms wrote: »

Harassment IS a crime. I guess you’d need to decipher the difference between ‘bullying’ and ‘harassment’ of which I don’t imagine there is a huge difference if any.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/26/enacted/en/print#sec10

Came here to post this, a lot of what constitutes bullying is illegal under the above Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act, 1997
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/26/enacted/en/print.html

Floppybits

Maybe it is time to start a discussion on making all forms of bullying illegal. From reading accounts of bullying and what people have to go through to get the issue addressed in schools and workplaces is heartbreaking and it seems from reading those accounts that the bullies get away with it because of hoops the victims and their families have to jump through.

As for the bullies of Ana Kreigal I hope they are hanging their heads in shame at how miserable they made that girls life. I feel it is the treatment of Ana that made her vulnerable to those 2 boys.

biko

Then next year we can make it a crime to be mean to others.

MrFresh

biko wrote: »

Then next year we can make it a crime to be mean to others.

Bullying is a serious issue in schools that causes a lot of serious distress to children and has resulted in a number of child suicides. It often does consist of illegal behaviour. And while you might be a big brave fella who can handle people being mean to you, I don't see why that necessitates disparaging the issue of bullying.

Floppybits

biko wrote: »

Then next year we can make it a crime to be mean to others.

Big difference between being mean to someone and bullying.

Anywsy why be mean someone? If you don't like them then don't interact with them.

blade1

Floppybits wrote: »

Maybe it is time to start a discussion on making all forms of bullying illegal. From reading accounts of bullying and what people have to go through to get the issue addressed in schools and workplaces is heartbreaking and it seems from reading those accounts that the bullies get away with it because of hoops the victims and their families have to jump through.

As for the bullies of Ana Kreigal I hope they are hanging. their heads in shame how miserable they made that girls life. I feel it is the treatment of Ana that made her vulnerable to those 2 boys.

FYP

ive seen many, many instances of people of different personality types, egos, drama tolerance, socialisation capabilities, interests, intellects, [whatever] clash with others where one or both decide they have been bullied

its a bad week to defend subtlety here, but the first problem with addressing a 'problem' is defining it and agreeing on the actionable elements

you can't and won't do that with bullying. its a catch-all term that everyone uses for different things

i happen to think that workplace legislation has a usable framework here that screens for the elements that really do constitute targeted/repeated/personal attacks on an individual

but that doesn't allow for some people taking a lot more from a once-off comment/incident than others

so in short, no we cannot ban bullying

AudreyHepburn

biko wrote: »

Then next year we can make it a crime to be mean to others.

Clearly you’ve never been bullied. As someone who was the victim of sustained bullying from 2nd Class to 2nd Year by the same girl you can take it from there is a world of difference between being mean to someone and bullying them.

Severe sustained bullying should unquestionably be a crime. The long term effects can be devastating.

I was lucky in a way - my bully never physically hurt me but every little thing she said and did was another chip out of my confidence and it’s taken me years to build it back up again. Only now in my early 30s do I really feel confident in and comfortable with myself.

AudreyHepburn

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Clearly you’ve never been bullied.

this is a very bad start to a response on a topic like this

sorry for your troubles besides, that is horrible to hear.

AudreyHepburn

Deleted User wrote: »

this is a very bad start to a response on a topic like this

sorry for your troubles besides, that is horrible to hear.

Why? I was only making the point that if you equate bullying with simply being mean then that suggests to me you’ve never been through it.

It wasn’t an insult or an attempt to bait. It was an observation on what that poster said not the topic itself.

If I’ve offended you somehow then I apologize but it was not my intent.

Alun

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Clearly you’ve never been bullied. As someone who was the victim of sustained bullying from 2nd Class to 2nd by the same girl you can take it from there is a world of difference between being mean to someone and bullying them.

Indeed, and as someone who was bullied myself at school, albeit many years ago, I can testify that it can have long lasting effects.

The big difference between just "being mean to someone" and bullying is the difference between a one-off event and a sustained onslaught, with the bully deriving pleasure from seeing their victim's response to what they're doing.

It doesn't really matter what form the attack takes, physical or mental, everybody is different, and everybody, even the "tough guys" on here who claim it's a load of nonsense and people should just toughen up, has their weak spot. Bullies enjoy finding that weak spot and exploiting it for their own twisted pleasure.

gozunda

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Bullying can be anything from physical attacks right through to snide comments.
Too difficult to legislate for IMO.

You could also have a group bully an individual and it becomes one word against many.

No bullying is defined and is very specific. For example in the workplace.

What is Bullying?
The Health and Safety Authority’s definition is that it is:

"repeated inappropriate behaviour, direct or indirect, whether verbal, physical or otherwise, conducted by one or more persons against another or others, at the place of work and/or in the course of employment, which could reasonably be regarded as undermining the individual‘s right to dignity at work."

An isolated incident of the behaviour described in this definition may be an affront to dignity at work but as a once off incident is not considered to be bullying.

gozunda

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Came here to post this, a lot of what constitutes bullying is illegal under the above Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act, 1997
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/26/enacted/en/print.html

A friend who is a solicitor says that statute would be largely irrelevant to most of traditional types of bullying and that that act is mainly used for stalking or targeting someone by means of pestering, besetting or watching

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/26/enacted/en/print#sec10

The act does not mention bullying

There was a move a few years ago to update the legislation to make it more inclusive afaik.

AudreyHepburn

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Why? I was only making the point that if you equate bullying with simply being mean then that suggests to me you’ve never been through it.

It wasn’t an insult or an attempt to bait. It was an observation on what that poster said not the topic itself.

If I’ve offended you somehow then I apologize but it was not my intent.

no, look, not at all, no need to apologize for my part

but i really do think you cant project onto others what their experience of bullying (or any trauma/event) might be simply because they hold a different opinion on it

BrokenArrows

Floppybits wrote: »

Big difference between being mean to someone and bullying.

Anywsy why be mean someone? If you don't like them then don't interact with them.

Ironically not interacting with someone is a form of bullying.

Mrs OBumble

Floppybits wrote: »

Big difference between being mean to someone and bullying.

Anywsy why be mean someone? If you don't like them then don't interact with them.

But that's excluding them. Which is inside the definition of bullying.

Bigbagofcans

I think it should be made a crime. It is detrimental to young people's lives and mental health, not to mention bullying in some cases leads to suicide.

There should be a ban on mobile phones in schools and an enforced restriction on young people on social media.

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

no, look, not at all, no need to apologize for my part

but i really do think you cant project onto others what their experience of bullying (or any trauma/event) might be simply because they hold a different opinion on it

I think that may be one of the issues tbh

Currently 'bullying' is not a criminal offence even where the victim suffers actual, emotional or psychological harm as defined by professional such as a doctor or other specialist etc

Prior to the 18th-century in England and Ireland physical assault was viewed by the authorities not as a criminal breach of the peace, but rather as a civil action between two parties in dispute. The onus therefore was on the victim to take personal legal action against the perpetrator for compensation only and only if they could afford to do so.

Now assault is a criminal offence

Bullying is not. The only remedy which is currently available to most victims of bullying is to take personal legal action against perpetrators or the employers if they can afford to do so - the same as happened to victims of physical assault prior to the 1800s

Seth Brundle

Out of curiosity, if we were to make bullying a crime, what kind of punishment do you think might be applicable to a bully under 10?

MrFresh

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Out of curiosity, if we were to make bullying a crime, what kind of punishment do you think might be applicable to a bully under 10?

If we're talking about child bullying I don't think punishment alone would be sufficient. You'd have to include some kind of reform and include the parents.

MrFresh

MrFresh wrote: »

If we're talking about child bullying I don't think punishment alone would be sufficient. You'd have to include some kind of reform and include the parents.

but not for murder, eh

MrFresh

Deleted User wrote: »

but not for murder, eh

Are you equating murder to bullying?

AudreyHepburn

Deleted User wrote: »

no, look, not at all, no need to apologize for my part

but i really do think you cant project onto others what their experience of bullying (or any trauma/event) might be simply because they hold a different opinion on it

Look it was only an observation. I’ve obviously struck a nerve and I’m sorry for that but I’m not going to take back what I said.

If someone has truly been bullied then they would know better than to refer to as being mean and would wholeheartedly agree that harsher consequences are badly needed.

gozunda

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Out of curiosity, if we were to make bullying a crime, what kind of punishment do you think might be applicable to a bully under 10?

That would be up to legislature to determine. It isn't an obstacle to such a change tbh.

AudreyHepburn

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Look it was only an observation. I’ve obviously struck a nerve and I’m sorry for that but I’m not going to take back what I said.

If someone has truly been bullied then they would know better than to refer to as being mean and would wholeheartedly agree that harsher consequences are badly needed.

I promise you havent, i just think its a logical fallacy of particular prominence

and you did it again

Apiarist

If bullying is a crime, then there should be an investigation for any incident. Imagine a group of kids ostracizing another kid and calling him names, maybe kicking his backback into dirt and so on, but not actually visibly hurting him. So this kid decided to stand up for himself and slaps one of his tormentors. Ooooh, now he is a bully, let lock him up, right? Or would you get a team of Garda investigators to establish the facts?

MrFresh

victor8600 wrote: »

If bullying is a crime, then there should be an investigation for any incident. Imagine a group of kids ostracizing another kid and calling him names, maybe kicking his backback into dirt and so on, but not actually visibly hurting him. So this kid decided to stand up for himself and slaps one of his tormentors. Ooooh, now he is a bully, let lock him up, right? Or would you get a team of Garda investigators to establish the facts?

Well, no. That would be self defence, which allows for the defence of property as well as people. Most bullying does actually fall under criminal law in some form, be it criminal damage, assault or harassment. But these are serious offences and it might be better to have a lesser offence that would allow for less serious incidents between children.

Strumms

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

But that's excluding them. Which is inside the definition of bullying.

I might not wish to talk with or spend time with person A. I have come to this decision due to the fact that I genuinely find them rude and annoying and we don’t have much in common . Am I excluding or am I acting in the interests of my own mental health and peace of mind ?

If someone doesn’t want to interact with me for the same or similar reason that’s ok with me.

Seth Brundle

MrFresh wrote: »

If we're talking about child bullying I don't think punishment alone would be sufficient. You'd have to include some kind of reform and include the parents.

...but in terms of the punishment part, what would you suggest for a child?

freshpopcorn

I find this sort of hard to answer.
So with some kids and teenagers something small may happen in within there school environment and it's important to make sure there home environment is okay. Whilst also looking after the victim of the bullying.
When I was at school there was the odd bit of bullying from time to tome. Most people in the class got on tough. However most people had their groups of
best friends. Some had a few and others might only had one.
However one thing that does concern me a little is I've seen parents basically saying everybody has to be your best friend.
Somebody wants to bring 3/4 friends to the cinema for there Birthday and there's a large class. Should this be allowed if somebody else feels excluded.

It's important to learn to be nice, kind to one another and talk to one another.

MrFresh

Seth Brundle wrote: »

...but in terms of the punishment part, what would you suggest for a child?

For a start, a referral to the Garda Juvenile Diversion Program and implementation of the school disciplinary code. I think the introduction of some kind of mandatory classes or workshops on Saturdays for early offenders and perhaps a parent might be beneficial.

gozunda

victor8600 wrote: »

If bullying is a crime, then there should be an investigation for any incident. Imagine a group of kids ostracizing another kid and calling him names, maybe kicking his backback into dirt and so on, but not actually visibly hurting him. So this kid decided to stand up for himself and slaps one of his tormentors. Ooooh, now he is a bully, let lock him up, right? Or would you get a team of Garda investigators to establish the facts?

Well frankly no

The current definition of bullying specifies that bullying is:

repeated inappropriate behaviour, direct or indirect, whether verbal, physical or otherwise, conducted by one or more persons against another or others, 

And

a once off incident is not considered to be bullying.

Therefore a once off retaliation by a bullied child standing up to their tormentors would not be considered bullying.

This doesn't have to be the full robocop stuff.

Parents, schools, clubs, places of work would have a duty of care for their students, employees etc.

The current system is not working.

The fact is that currently most individuals such as Ana can do fuk all to stop their tormentors.

The bullying that girl suffered resulted in her being ostracized and targeted. Only her murder by some of those who were bullying her now means that only then justice can be served.

Apiarist

MrFresh wrote: »

Well, no. That would be self defence, which allows for the defence of property as well as people.....

My point is -- who decides that was a self-defense? On one side you have a boy who was seen slapping another child, one another side you have a gang of kids saying that this boy is a bully and they have done nothing to provoke him while in fact they were poking and shoving him when a teacher could not see them.

If we apply adult terms, like a crime, then the slapping can be seen as an assault, it goes to Garda, then to the court and so on.

In reality, there is already a system in place. Teacher reports the incident, Tusla gets involved, they talk to the boy's parents and hopefully establish what happened and in the best case everybody work together to make the school more comfortable for all.

MrFresh

victor8600 wrote: »

My point is -- who decides that was a self-defense? On one side you have a boy who was seen slapping another child, one another side you have a gang of kids saying that this boy is a bully and they have done nothing to provoke him while in fact they were poking and shoving him when a teacher could not see them.

If we apply adult terms, like a crime, then the slapping can be seen as an assault, it goes to Garda, then to the court and so on.

In reality, there is already a system in place. Teacher reports the incident, Tusla gets involved, they talk to the boy's parents and hopefully establish what happened and in the best case everybody work together to make the school more comfortable for all.

Why shouldn't Gardaí get involved in an assault?

Apiarist

MrFresh wrote: »

Why shouldn't Gardaí get involved in an assault?

Exactly, let's go all the way :rolleyes: A child slaps another child in a playground, let's call Gardaí.

Joking aside, tell me, do you want bulling to be considered a criminal offense? If so, should all claims of bulling being investigated properly? Of course they should, you cannot just believe any claim, as children are notoriously unreliable with their words. And if we do not involve professional detectives to do the job, who is going to it? A teacher?

Mad_maxx

I'd be fine with it only I suspect only males would ever get charged

Strumms

Plenty of females would resort to bullying within their peer group too. It from what I saw will manifest itself in a different form to guys though.

Seth Brundle

MrFresh wrote: »

For a start, a referral to the Garda Juvenile Diversion Program and implementation of the school disciplinary code. I think the introduction of some kind of mandatory classes or workshops on Saturdays for early offenders and perhaps a parent might be beneficial.

So all this for a 10 year old who is mean to another?
:rolleyes:

Strumms

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Out of curiosity, if we were to make bullying a crime, what kind of punishment do you think might be applicable to a bully under 10?

Out of curiosity, if you have two five year olds, one hits the other a dig for taking his favorite dinosaur... should one be done for theft and one for assault ?

It’s a complete different thing from what is being discussed. Children misbehaving is not the same as an adult committing an offense.

Hal3000

It's great that we seem to be finally addressing and discussing the serious impacts of bullying, but in typical Irish fashion what took us to get to this point is dreadful.

Seth Brundle

Strumms wrote: »

Out of curiosity, if you have two five year olds, one hits the other a dig for taking his favorite dinosaur... should one be done for theft and one for assault ?

It’s a complete different thing from what is being discussed. Children misbehaving is not the same as an adult committing an offense.

I asked a question earlier about a bullying law and legislated punishment for children. I responded to one of the subsequent responses.
How is it completely different from what's being discussed?

Wanderer2010

If any company worth their salt sees fit to include a grievance or bullying policy in their handbook then it should definitely be classed as a crime but it is very hard to prove it even if you find the courage to take a case against someone and there is the added stress of having to work under that same person or relying on a reference. It goes on everywhere but more so in small companies where there are no real official policy books. I absolutely despise anyone who bullies another person, they are nothing but filthy cowards and I actually get angry if I see it in shops or offices etc.

Anyone who needs to bully another person is effectively telling the world that they are a weedy, weak nothing of a human being who cant solve conflict or deal with stress without making others look bad. The worst thing about it you see their grinning faces in the newspaper every week supporting some local event as if they are so nice as pie when they have their staff terrified of them. Definitely should be a crime 100%.

Yamanoto

Life is sometimes sh1tty and unfair, but perseverance and resolve are attributes you have to draw upon at certain times to see you through.

In a society which increasingly encourages us to give voice to our problems (in general a good thing), there's also a real possibility that oversensitivity and emotional brittleness become more prevalent - preventing people from developing coping skills to ride out the ups and downs.

MrFresh

MrFresh wrote: »

Why shouldn't Gardaí get involved in an assault?

i think there's a good argument for secondary school being a threshold here tbh.

welcome to the middle ground folks. new school, new rules

MrFresh

victor8600 wrote: »

Exactly, let's go all the way :rolleyes: A child slaps another child in a playground, let's call Gardaí.

You mean an assault?

victor8600 wrote: »

Joking aside, tell me, do you want bulling to be considered a criminal offense? If so, should all claims of bulling being investigated properly? Of course they should, you cannot just believe any claim, as children are notoriously unreliable with their words. And if we do not involve professional detectives to do the job, who is going to it? A teacher?

As I said, most bullying already comes under the criminal law in the form of more serious offences. I would be in favour of a minor offence of bullying which would cover minor acts of assault, criminal damage and harassment to allow for those involved to be referred to the juvenile diversion program without being accused of those more serious crimes.


Bullying seems to be perceived as this grey area that's too serious for schools to deal with and not serious enough for Gardaí to handle so it goes completely unaddressed. I think both the school and Gardaí should be involved to tackle it at an early stage.

Seth Brundle wrote: »

So all this for a 10 year old who is mean to another?
:rolleyes:

No, a 10 year old would be below the age of criminal responsibility so the Gardaí wouldn't be involved.

Yurt2

Yamanoto wrote: »

Life is sometimes sh1tty and unfair, but perseverance and resolve are attributes you have to draw upon at certain times to see you through.

In a society which increasingly encourages us to give voice to our problems (in general a good thing), there's also a real possibility that oversensitivity and emotional brittleness become more prevalent - preventing people from developing coping skills to ride out the ups and downs.

There's an argument to be made that the generation above us didn't have a lot of coping skills. Bate around by the Christian Brothers et al, bate around in the school yard.

Think of all the dysfunctional adults you know that took to the bottle, were sh*the parents that bate their kids in turn - with no tools to navigate their own emotional world.

is_that_so

Yurt! wrote: »

There's an argument to be made that the generation above us didn't have a lot of coping skills. Bate around by the Christian Brothers et al, bate around in the school yard.

Think of all the dysfunctional adults you know that took to the bottle, were sh*the parents that bate their kids in turn - with no tools to navigate their own emotional world.

There's also an argument that Millennials down have few coping skills. Despite the Ryan Report and other urban myths, kids were not subjected to wide scale violence and most of them turned out balanced enough. What was different was the concept of discipline, which did include varying degrees of physical punishment. Most of it was on the lighter end ,the "clatter" or "slap", but there was some brutal stuff as well and brutal stuff exists in any generation.

Yamanoto

Yamanoto wrote: »

Life is sometimes sh1tty and unfair, but perseverance and resolve are attributes you have to draw upon at certain times to see you through.

In a society which increasingly encourages us to give voice to our problems (in general a good thing), there's also a real possibility that oversensitivity and emotional brittleness become more prevalent - preventing people from developing coping skills to ride out the ups and downs.

Someone was explning to me about naming emotions to a child, in this case, it was explaining to the child what they were feeling was jealous because another child has got something they did not get because the parents could not afford it.

To me it sounded like a bit of a fad, until someone who works with young people said by naming it for the child it just become a though not a feeling and it just being a though and not a feeling might be enough so it does not fester for the child which in turn could have led to the child lashing out or bullying the other child to make themselves feel better.