Government plans.... heat pumps.

Zane97

Can they be retrofitted or what instead of oil and gas?

600,000 heat pumps by 2030.

Can you put a heat pump in any house? Eg for an old house with solid inner walls, you need a load of vents yeah?

is_that_so

Also wondering about this idea. All set to get quotes on new high efficiency boiler but had my head turned a bit by this plan. Which one is best to choose?

Calhoun

I wonder what kind of grants they will have if any. We built in 2013 but installed an oil boiler as it was affordable at the time and dont qualify for any grants on PV cells ect.

drunkmonkey

Couldn't make the sums work on retrofitting one 3yrs ago when the oil burner packed in. Ended up just putting in a new oil burner.
I think we were at a 8 year payback on doing it and that's if electricity prices didn't rise.
Smart TVR's would make a difference to my consumption but again your taking about nearly 2 years worth of oil on fitting them.
It'll all boil down to the price.

sydthebeat

Calhoun wrote: »

I wonder what kind of grants they will have if any. We built in 2013 but installed an oil boiler as it was affordable at the time and dont qualify for any grants on PV cells ect.

You'd qualify for the heat pump grant

mickdw

Im far from convinced re heatpumps being retrofitted to older housing stock.
Imo your building needs to be a very energy efficient to make heat pump work economically.
If the heat demand from your property is too much, the heat pump will firstly struggle to provide a comfortable house and secondly will ruin you in esb costs.

Everyone was told wood pellet burners were the future a few years ago. Where are they now?

I'm a fan of the hybrid oil and heat pump.
They are intelligently controlled and oil will be used to get up to speed or when high demand. Heat pump in times of lower demand such as just maintaining temp etc.
I know of a few locals who are paying 600 extra per 2 monthly esb bill since installing heat pump. I also know people who have a total yearly esb cost of 1200 with heat pump. Those with the low bills are the people who specified very high levels of airtightness and insulation.
Those who built new and just did the minimums in terms of energy regs particularly airtightness are not working out great. I can't see installs into old houses going well.

Eric Cartman

these basic model heat pumps in b or lower rated houses are this generations storage heaters. The costs can be crippling as temperatures drop. Ground sourced heat pumps are better in the cold but a lot more expensive.

These air sourced units are great in tandem with oil and gas for the harsher days or A1 rated properties with underfloor heating.

gctest50

mickdw wrote: »

........

Everyone was told wood pellet burners were the future a few years ago. Where are they now?

.........

One reason wood pellet boilers were pushed was to reduce the number of people burning waste (esp plastic ) in open fires

I dont have a good feeling about this.

Although, if Bulk produced you'd expect the per unit cost to come down.

Pity the RGI's though.

Zane97

I’m just on about the typical 3 bed semi’s on oil and gas.

Surely isn’t cost effective.

drunkmonkey

Even longer payback time, I doubt it's those houses their aiming for, they mentioned the Midlands which is a lot of one off houses burning oil I'd assume.

listermint

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Even longer payback time, I doubt it's those houses their aiming for, they mentioned the Midlands which is a lot of one off houses burning oil I'd assume.

Cost 40k plus between heat pump and insulation to achieve these plans.

gctest50

drunkmonkey wrote: »

..............

they mentioned the Midlands which is a lot of one off houses burning oil I'd assume.

Easy enough fix it - in 8 years time ban the sale of home heating oil

If their electricity usage pattern doesn't show "heatpump", they're burning agri-diesel

listermint

gctest50 wrote: »

Easy enough fix it - in 8 years time ban the sale of home heating oil

If their electricity usage pattern doesn't show "heatpump", they're burning agri-diesel

Solid plan move people from paying 1400 for oil to 3k for electricity alone on the heating.

What people need to realise is the word heat pump isn't a panacea. Every house is different. The problem is multi faceted.

For an old farmhouse with plenty of land, would a windmill be enough to power the heat pump (assuming there's enough wind and the heat pump would have to work very hard for an old house)

Zane97

listermint wrote: »

Cost 40k plus between heat pump and insulation to achieve these plans.

That’s mad

PCeeeee

gctest50 wrote: »

Easy enough fix it - in 8 years time ban the sale of home heating oil

If their electricity usage pattern doesn't show "heatpump", they're burning agri-diesel

A sure vote getter

gozunda

Was talking to a heating engineering about a heat pump. I was told that they do not work once temperatures drop to -3c and below and a secondary source such as a traditional oil fired boiler would be required for periods of cold weather.

Granted we get little enough extreme cold weather in this country but I wouldn't wish to experience another winter such as 2010 / 2011 and be totally dependent on something that's not going to provide heating when it is most needed.

Zane97

gctest50 wrote: »

Easy enough fix it - in 8 years time ban the sale of home heating oil

If their electricity usage pattern doesn't show "heatpump", they're burning agri-diesel

Where do you think they are going to get there tax take from then?

€690 for 1000ltrs of kero,

Tax is €82 alone.

Dearer electricity bills no doubt.

John.G

mickdw wrote: »

Im far from convinced re heatpumps being retrofitted to older housing stock.
Imo your building needs to be a very energy efficient to make heat pump work economically.
If the heat demand from your property is too much, the heat pump will firstly struggle to provide a comfortable house and secondly will ruin you in esb costs.

Everyone was told wood pellet burners were the future a few years ago. Where are they now?

I'm a fan of the hybrid oil and heat pump.
They are intelligently controlled and oil will be used to get up to speed or when high demand. Heat pump in times of lower demand such as just maintaining temp etc.
I know of a few locals who are paying 600 extra per 2 monthly esb bill since installing heat pump. I also know people who have a total yearly esb cost of 1200 with heat pump. Those with the low bills are the people who specified very high levels of airtightness and insulation.
Those who built new and just did the minimums in terms of energy regs particularly airtightness are not working out great. I can't see installs into old houses going well.

Based on my own 1972 cavity block built house with no extra insulation apart from the attic and IF i just dropped in a A2W heat pump without any more energy conservation then the heat pump would only have to achieve a SCOP (seasonal COP) of 2.35 to break even with my present oil fired boiler. I also have a modest (2XF.plate) thermal solar array which contributes ~ 1000 kwh/annum but I have taken this out of the spreadsheet calcs.
I have also based the calcs on heating the water to 40C but boosting it to 60C once per week for legionella protection.

While the government are turning the screw a bit now I think in fairness to the Heat Pump vs Gas/Oil saving discussions that they have to be compared on a level playing field, ie, if one is going to spend €xxxx on upgrading house energy standards (or not) then the costs must be compared one with another on this basis.
My spreadsheet might give some idea, the actual SCOP number of course will have a huge bearing, also A2W vs GSHP.

Wearb

John.G wrote: »

Based on my own 1972 cavity block built house with no extra insulation apart from the attic and IF i just dropped in a A2W heat pump without any more energy conservation then the heat pump would only have to achieve a SCOP (seasonal COP) of 2.35 to break even with my present oil fired boiler. I also have a modest (2XF.plate) thermal solar array which contributes ~ 1000 kwh/annum but I have taken this out of the spreadsheet calcs.
I have also based the calcs on heating the water to 40C but boosting it to 60C once per week for legionella protection.

While the government are turning the screw a bit now I think in fairness to the Heat Pump vs Gas/Oil saving discussions that they have to be compared on a level playing field, ie, if one is going to spend €xxxx on upgrading house energy standards (or not) then the costs must be compared one with another on this basis.
My spreadsheet might give some idea, the actual SCOP number of course will have a huge bearing, also A2W vs GSHP.

Thanks for putting that together John. Still a long payback time for a change over from oil or gas (well over 10 years). I expect that existing rads would have to be replaced. I know we could talk about all sorts of underfloor heating and insulation, but then we would be muddying the waters when doing comparisons with existing systems.

John.G

Yes, the more you spend on energy conservation the less the saving!!.
Re rad changing, if you ran the existing rads at 40C then with a rad delta T of 10c you will have a "15 deg rad" which will give ~ 22% output of a 50 deg rad, my installed rad output is ~ 20 kw and even it the coldest weather, 4 to 6 kw keeps my house fine and warm (upstairs shut off) so if the HP is running 24/7 which IMO it should then the installed rads would probably give sufficient output, I must run a few next winter at 22% output.
If you look at some posts by Latro you will find some very interesting numbers I think.

Calhoun

sydthebeat wrote: »

You'd qualify for the heat pump grant

Good to know i will need to look into it more, last guy i had look at it wanted to do allot of work running ducting even though we have the guts of it setup already.

Muahahaha

gozunda wrote: »

Was talking to a heating engineering about a heat pump. I was told that they do not work once temperatures drop to -3c and below and a secondary source such as a traditional oil fired boiler would be required for periods of cold weather.

That sounds a bit strange as heat pumps are used quite a bit in Scandanavia and Canada where temps regularly go down to -20c. Maybe the HPs on the market here are paddy spec and only go to -3c? If so that would be pretty useless, while we don't get -3c often when we do we need heat more than ever.

Either way I think more real life data is needed on them. The sales men all say their units will give you 4kw of heat for 1kw of electricity but that is only at outdoor temps of around 8 degrees. Below that and the COP goes down quite a bit. Id be interested to see some real life data on what COP they are achieving when it is 0c outside.

John.G

This might give you some idea, its not real life but gives a reasonable indication.

Muahahaha

Thanks John. Thats pretty interesting that it can do a COP of almost 3 to 1 even at -3c. Where is that data from and does it refer to a specific brand of heat pump?

John.G

I got it here.... http://www.kingspansolar.ie/pdf/Aeromax%20Plus.pdf

Bungusbeefcake

For me its interesting timing, in the process of looking for a new boiler. The current oil one is 10 years old and has never been serviced in the house I'm moving to so needs replacement. Was looking into an A2W. For SEAI grant you need to have a technical assessor assess the house pre installation and post installation to get BER and most importantly assess the Heat Loss Indicator (HLI). Now the house has a BER and according to the XML has a HLI of 2.19 (SEAI require under 2 for grant but have exceptions).
The house has ground floor under floor heating and rads upstairs (converted bungalow), and if we take it that the house is accepted as is by the SEAI then the costs stack up as follows: Tech Assessor initial assessment ~ €500. Post assessment ~€200 (SEAI have a 200 grant for that also - assume that is given). Then we have the removal of Oil Boiler, tank and hot water tank, and installation of A2W, new how water tank and setup etc. costs vary wildly as you can imagine, one quote was €13,560 for installation and system (16kW) and another was €9,600 (14kW). Therefore the cost to transition is a total of between ~€14,000 and €10,000. If we then receive the SEAI grant of €3,500 that means a total cost of between €10,500 and €6,500 minimum. Then theres the inevitable stuff that arises during the assessment, you need to install 1-2k of insulation, pump the walls etc.

Maybe I just don't see the numbers, but a good oil boiler should cost what, €2k including installation and then that would leave €4,500 - €8,500 left for oil. With both units expected to last 10-15 years, that means I have "free" heating for 3 or more years (expected minimum) depending on cost of oil and then you've to assess about the difference in overall bills for my usage during that time. You've got to wonder if the €3,500 grant really is worth it???

H.E. Pennypacker

Bungusbeefcake wrote: »

Maybe I just don't see the numbers, but a good oil boiler should cost what, €2k including installation and then that would leave €4,500 - €8,500 left for oil. With both units expected to last 10-15 years, that means I have "free" heating for 3 or more years (expected minimum) depending on cost of oil and then you've to assess about the difference in overall bills for my usage during that time. You've got to wonder if the €3,500 grant really is worth it???

You're absolutely right. I've carried out works to bring my HLI down to just over 2 and I qualify for a heat pump grant. I'd like to move away from fossil fuel heating but financially its just not worth it. I've had similar quotes to you and it makes no financial sense with the current incentives. I've spoken to the SEAI about it - they reckon that the grant covers approx 30% of expected costs and that is what they think is correct. That's all well and good but I think that the current grant scheme will be a failure as the payback is just too long. It'll be very interesting to see what the uptake is on the grant. They quote highish figures for initial applications but there's no real information on completions yet.

Bungusbeefcake

H.E. Pennypacker wrote: »

You're absolutely right. I've carried out works to bring my HLI down to just over 2 and I qualify for a heat pump grant. I'd like to move away from fossil fuel heating but financially its just not worth it. I've had similar quotes to you and it makes no financial sense with the current incentives. I've spoken to the SEAI about it - they reckon that the grant covers approx 30% of expected costs and that is what they think is correct. That's all well and good but I think that the current grant scheme will be a failure as the payback is just too long. It'll be very interesting to see what the uptake is on the grant. They quote highish figures for initial applications but there's no real information on completions yet.

Yep, not even mentioning the fact that you'll probably be breaking even or just slightly positive when the A2W will probably die and then its probably another fortune to replace, without a grant. The manufacturers warranty on them isn't great either, its a standard 2 year or so, when with an oil boiler you can get ones with 8+ year guarantee.

When were you speaking to SEAI? Also did the works cost you much? Were they extensive?

H.E. Pennypacker

Bungusbeefcake wrote: »

When were you speaking to SEAI? Also did the works cost you much? Were they extensive?

I was in contact with them about six weeks ago - I just gave them feedback on my setup, quotes and the impossibility of making the figures work. I would think that I'm fairly typical of a potential upgrade client in that I've a pre 2011 house that required upgrades to meet the heat loss requirements. I've carried them out and had a technical assessment done but as my oil consumption has dropped dramatically, the payback for a heatpump has lengthened. By my reckoning, a heat pump will save me roughly €500 on heating and hot water costs over a full year. The cheapest quote that I got was just under €9,000 for an A2W heat pump incorporating a 180 litre hot water cylinder. The most expensive quote was €13,000. To complicate matters, I only have radiators, no UFH. I've run the heating with a flow temp of 40C and maintained normal temperatures in the house (21C living areas, 19C bedrooms daytime, 16.5C nighttime). The technical assessor was of the opinion that I'd still need to upgrade most of my radiators just to hit the required numbers for heat emitters. That'd cost me about €3k to do myself and €5k for the heat pump installer to do.

I don't have a total figure for works off the top of my head but it included a cavity pump, external insulation and increasing the attic insulation to 300mm. Its an L shaped bungalow with a lot of external wall area so the external insulation was a big chunk of it.

John.G

Bungusbeefcake wrote: »

For me its interesting timing, in the process of looking for a new boiler. The current oil one is 10 years old and has never been serviced in the house I'm moving to so needs replacement. Was looking into an A2W. For SEAI grant you need to have a technical assessor assess the house pre installation and post installation to get BER and most importantly assess the Heat Loss Indicator (HLI). Now the house has a BER and according to the XML has a HLI of 2.19 (SEAI require under 2 for grant but have exceptions).
The house has ground floor under floor heating and rads upstairs (converted bungalow), and if we take it that the house is accepted as is by the SEAI then the costs stack up as follows: Tech Assessor initial assessment ~ €500. Post assessment ~€200 (SEAI have a 200 grant for that also - assume that is given). Then we have the removal of Oil Boiler, tank and hot water tank, and installation of A2W, new how water tank and setup etc. costs vary wildly as you can imagine, one quote was €13,560 for installation and system (16kW) and another was €9,600 (14kW). Therefore the cost to transition is a total of between ~€14,000 and €10,000. If we then receive the SEAI grant of €3,500 that means a total cost of between €10,500 and €6,500 minimum. Then theres the inevitable stuff that arises during the assessment, you need to install 1-2k of insulation, pump the walls etc.

Maybe I just don't see the numbers, but a good oil boiler should cost what, €2k including installation and then that would leave €4,500 - €8,500 left for oil. With both units expected to last 10-15 years, that means I have "free" heating for 3 or more years (expected minimum) depending on cost of oil and then you've to assess about the difference in overall bills for my usage during that time. You've got to wonder if the €3,500 grant really is worth it???

Can someone give me a rough idea of the above. I have a reasonable grasp of a BER rating which is expressed in space heating requirements in kwh/M2/annum. If I have a 140 M2 house with a BER rating of 40 kwh/M2/annum which is a A2 rating then my annual space heating requirements are (140*40) 5600 kwh/annum.

If another 140 M2 house has a HLI rating of 2.0 w/K m2, what does this relate to in annual energy requirements as this HLI is a power measurement whereas the BER is a energy rating.

sydthebeat

John.G wrote: »

If I have a 140 M2 house with a BER rating of 40 kwh/M2/annum which is a A2 rating then my annual space heating requirements are (140*40) 5600 kwh/annum.
.

thats incorrect.
the above is omittind the main water heating demand from the energy value.... which would actually be the larger proportion at a A2 level.

the results sheet of the DEAP assessment will separate out the water / space values..

have a look here
https://tippenergy.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Module-7-Energy-Use.pdf

AlmightyCushion

H.E. Pennypacker wrote: »

I was in contact with them about six weeks ago - I just gave them feedback on my setup, quotes and the impossibility of making the figures work. I would think that I'm fairly typical of a potential upgrade client in that I've a pre 2011 house that required upgrades to meet the heat loss requirements. I've carried them out and had a technical assessment done but as my oil consumption has dropped dramatically, the payback for a heatpump has lengthened. By my reckoning, a heat pump will save me roughly €500 on heating and hot water costs over a full year. The cheapest quote that I got was just under €9,000 for an A2W heat pump incorporating a 180 litre hot water cylinder. The most expensive quote was €13,000. To complicate matters, I only have radiators, no UFH. I've run the heating with a flow temp of 40C and maintained normal temperatures in the house (21C living areas, 19C bedrooms daytime, 16.5C nighttime). The technical assessor was of the opinion that I'd still need to upgrade most of my radiators just to hit the required numbers for heat emitters. That'd cost me about €3k to do myself and €5k for the heat pump installer to do.

I don't have a total figure for works off the top of my head but it included a cavity pump, external insulation and increasing the attic insulation to 300mm. Its an L shaped bungalow with a lot of external wall area so the external insulation was a big chunk of it.

Isn't there grants for attic insulation and external wall insulation on their own (i.e. without going with a heat pump). If so, it might be worth doing all or some of the other stuff and just not bothering with the heat pump for now.

cgcsb

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Couldn't make the sums work on retrofitting one 3yrs ago when the oil burner packed in. Ended up just putting in a new oil burner.
I think we were at a 8 year payback on doing it and that's if electricity prices didn't rise.
Smart TVR's would make a difference to my consumption but again your taking about nearly 2 years worth of oil on fitting them.
It'll all boil down to the price.

I think the only solution proposed for this is making oil more expensive. We've yet to hear solid details on what the home retrofit scheme is.

Bungusbeefcake

I've done a cost breakdown of installation of Oil vs A2W including costs per annum for the house. I have just taken the std BER rating as comparison. By the looks on if, with and without grants the A2W be cheaper after year 6 and year3 respectively, however the total saving of an A2W after 15 years works out around 11k to 15k (without and with receiving grants). The main crux of this are that at this point the units will probably have to be replaced which will then be a guessing game as to the price of units etc. and if it only lasts 10 years then I'll only have "saved" 4,800-8,500 then it'll cost me more overall to replace than the oil.

Feel free to have a look and comment.

Note, thats also assuming I'm heating the whole place within the to the BER assumed values. Does anyone know how accurate the actual values of the BER ratings actually are for cost per annum (or requirements per annum - kWh/m2a)

sydthebeat

Bungusbeefcake wrote: »

I've done a cost breakdown of installation of Oil vs A2W including costs per annum for the house. I have just taken the std BER rating as comparison. By the looks on if, with and without grants the A2W be cheaper after year 6 and year3 respectively, however the total saving of an A2W after 15 years works out around 11k to 15k (without and with receiving grants). The main crux of this are that at this point the units will probably have to be replaced which will then be a guessing game as to the price of units etc. and if it only lasts 10 years then I'll only have "saved" 4,800-8,500 then it'll cost me more overall to replace than the oil.

Feel free to have a look and comment.

Note, thats also assuming I'm heating the whole place within the to the BER assumed values. Does anyone know how accurate the actual values of the BER ratings actually are for cost per annum (or requirements per annum - kWh/m2a)

did you separate out the delivered energy versus the primary energy??

you should only use "delivered energy" to assess the actual dwelling energy usage... as the primary energy included losses at the point of production and transport to site.

edit: so assuming your delivered energy is somewhere in the 160 kw/m2/yr that would push out your "grant assisted" payback to year 4 , and non granted to year 8.

Seesee

mickdw wrote: »

Im far from convinced re heatpumps being retrofitted to older housing stock.
Imo your building needs to be a very energy efficient to make heat pump work economically.
If the heat demand from your property is too much, the heat pump will firstly struggle to provide a comfortable house and secondly will ruin you in esb costs.

Everyone was told wood pellet burners were the future a few years ago. Where are they now?

I'm a fan of the hybrid oil and heat pump.
They are intelligently controlled and oil will be used to get up to speed or when high demand. Heat pump in times of lower demand such as just maintaining temp etc.
I know of a few locals who are paying 600 extra per 2 monthly esb bill since installing heat pump. I also know people who have a total yearly esb cost of 1200 with heat pump. Those with the low bills are the people who specified very high levels of airtightness and insulation.
Those who built new and just did the minimums in terms of energy regs particularly airtightness are not working out great. I can't see installs into old houses going well.

Had this exact conversation with man servicing my gas boiler this morning and he echoes your thoughts exactly. Great on new builds at near passive insulation but not on old sieves like my house.

cgcsb

H.E. Pennypacker wrote: »

I don't have a total figure for works off the top of my head but it included a cavity pump, external insulation and increasing the attic insulation to 300mm. Its an L shaped bungalow with a lot of external wall area so the external insulation was a big chunk of it.

If you were to carry out these works, surely that'd reduce your fuel consumption further, and extend the heat pump pay back period even longer?

Bungusbeefcake

sydthebeat wrote: »

did you separate out the delivered energy versus the primary energy??

you should only use "delivered energy" to assess the actual dwelling energy usage... as the primary energy included losses at the point of production and transport to site.

edit: so assuming your delivered energy is somewhere in the 160 kw/m2/yr that would push out your "grant assisted" payback to year 4 , and non granted to year 8.

The Delivered Energy works out at 148.4 kWh/m2y. This brings the payback as you expected to year 4 and year 8, however the difference if overall payback over 15 years down from 10,554 to 7,291 (without grant) and from 14,244 to 10,991. Which actually makes it less compelling to buy one as at the end of 15 years without the grant and with the grant, as I would only have just enough payback to buy a new A2W with grants received initially and without grants I would lose 3K.

sydthebeat

Bungusbeefcake wrote: »

The Delivered Energy works out at 148.4 kWh/m2y. This brings the payback as you expected to year 4 and year 8, however the difference if overall payback over 15 years down from 10,554 to 7,291 (without grant) and from 14,244 to 10,991. Which actually makes it less compelling to buy one as at the end of 15 years without the grant and with the grant, as I would only have just enough payback to buy a new A2W with grants received initially and without grants I would lose 3K.

All fair points..... but is it hard to foresee where oil costs will be in 15 years??
will carbon taxes come in to crucify fossil fuels for home heating and private transport?


edit: and as an aside... personally i think the HLI of 2.0 is WAYYYY too high for a valid installation of a HP.
that would typically be a C1 or C2 rated house... which again would be typical of dwellings built between say 1995 and 2013... which would actually be in the bracket of some of the worst houses built in the country.

the DEAP software does not differentiate between a well built, and a sh!te built house.

PCeeeee

sydthebeat wrote: »

Will carbon taxes come in to crucify fossil fuels for home heating and private transport?

This is the big question. I have attempted also to do figures for a retro fit. And I can't make them work. No doubt our masters will come to this conclusion also and redress the balance.

Unless this is done sympathetically then the water charges protests will look very mild.

GreeBo

Bungusbeefcake wrote: »

The Delivered Energy works out at 148.4 kWh/m2y. This brings the payback as you expected to year 4 and year 8, however the difference if overall payback over 15 years down from 10,554 to 7,291 (without grant) and from 14,244 to 10,991. Which actually makes it less compelling to buy one as at the end of 15 years without the grant and with the grant, as I would only have just enough payback to buy a new A2W with grants received initially and without grants I would lose 3K.

But in 15 years you ate only replying the pump, none of the rest of the works are done.

Its like buying a new ac unit at that stage and you benefit from all the insulation work either way.

H.E. Pennypacker

cgcsb wrote: »

If you were to carry out these works, surely that'd reduce your fuel consumption further, and extend the heat pump pay back period even longer?

It would, and it did for me. It seems that the more you reduce your heat loss and improve airtightness, the less important the source of heat becomes. The cost of heating the house reduces by so much its only worth changing to a heat pump if you want to stop using fossil fuels as a heat source. If your oil/gas fired boiler needs to be replaced, its still cheaper to buy another one rather than change to a heat pump, even with the grant.

Reducing heatloss and improving airtightness will pay dividends in the short and long term and are guaranteed to work. A heat pump retrofit comes with some unknowns and has a finite lifespan.

Road-Hog

Bungusbeefcake wrote: »

I've done a cost breakdown of installation of Oil vs A2W including costs per annum for the house. I have just taken the std BER rating as comparison. By the looks on if, with and without grants the A2W be cheaper after year 6 and year3 respectively, however the total saving of an A2W after 15 years works out around 11k to 15k (without and with receiving grants). The main crux of this are that at this point the units will probably have to be replaced which will then be a guessing game as to the price of units etc. and if it only lasts 10 years then I'll only have "saved" 4,800-8,500 then it'll cost me more overall to replace than the oil.

Feel free to have a look and comment.

Note, thats also assuming I'm heating the whole place within the to the BER assumed values. Does anyone know how accurate the actual values of the BER ratings actually are for cost per annum (or requirements per annum - kWh/m2a)

I’d have zero faith/confidence in those BER figures......a guy goes around with a clip board and ticks boxes and then plugs stuff into some software and it throws out a letter......no insitu real testing.....too many assumptions......surely some sort of building specific test should be done.....as said above no allowance is made for quality/workmanship of the build

cgcsb

I can tell you BER is a scam. Attic insulation is one of the best ways to reduce heat loss, the BER inspector asks the owner how mush s/he has up there, takes their word for it and doesn't check. Houses from the 70s that have a cavity will be signed off as having been retrofited with blow in insulation, also based on the owners word for it.

sydthebeat

cgcsb wrote: »

I can tell you BER is a scam. Attic insulation is one of the best ways to reduce heat loss, the BER inspector asks the owner how mush s/he has up there, takes their word for it and doesn't check. Houses from the 70s that have a cavity will be signed off as having been retrofited with blow in insulation, also based on the owners word for it.

MOD Note <snip> One word comments like that will get you a card next time.

slo007

listermint wrote: »

Solid plan move people from paying 1400 for oil to 3k for electricity alone on the heating.

What people need to realise is the word heat pump isn't a panacea. Every house is different. The problem is multi faceted.

Thanks for your comments. It definitely highlights a risk of going to a system that relies on electricity to run.

What are the requirements for a heat pump to work effectively and efficiently? I'm about to buy a B3 rated house with 221 m2 and am looking to make it as efficient as possible.

slo007

Bungusbeefcake wrote: »

For me its interesting timing, in the process of looking for a new boiler. The current oil one is 10 years old and has never been serviced in the house I'm moving to so needs replacement. Was looking into an A2W. For SEAI grant you need to have a technical assessor assess the house pre installation and post installation to get BER and most importantly assess the Heat Loss Indicator (HLI). Now the house has a BER and according to the XML has a HLI of 2.19 (SEAI require under 2 for grant but have exceptions).
The house has ground floor under floor heating and rads upstairs (converted bungalow), and if we take it that the house is accepted as is by the SEAI then the costs stack up as follows: Tech Assessor initial assessment ~ €500. Post assessment ~€200 (SEAI have a 200 grant for that also - assume that is given). Then we have the removal of Oil Boiler, tank and hot water tank, and installation of A2W, new how water tank and setup etc. costs vary wildly as you can imagine, one quote was €13,560 for installation and system (16kW) and another was €9,600 (14kW). Therefore the cost to transition is a total of between ~€14,000 and €10,000. If we then receive the SEAI grant of €3,500 that means a total cost of between €10,500 and €6,500 minimum. Then theres the inevitable stuff that arises during the assessment, you need to install 1-2k of insulation, pump the walls etc.

Maybe I just don't see the numbers, but a good oil boiler should cost what, €2k including installation and then that would leave €4,500 - €8,500 left for oil. With both units expected to last 10-15 years, that means I have "free" heating for 3 or more years (expected minimum) depending on cost of oil and then you've to assess about the difference in overall bills for my usage during that time. You've got to wonder if the €3,500 grant really is worth it???

Thanks for sharing your experience. How large is the property?

Why do you need to remove the existing boiler? Can't you keep it as a back-up on cold weather days?

Just curious - have you looked at solar for water/electricity at all?

Latro

I retrofited A2W heatpump last year.

Steel double rads throughout + 1 fancoil radiator.

Total cost for last winter was 450 euro (heating only).

9kW heatpump was on 24/7 from about mid September untill mid May.

House temp constant 21 degrees day or night. Garage also heated at 15-16 degrees.

The house is about 200sqm built to pre 2008 regs + upgraded attic insulation.

Good quality double glazed windows.

Hole in wall ventilation which I'm planing to upgrade in future to HRV.