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Salary stagnation: how to survive it
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evolving_doors wrote: »You're missing the point. I know this case is unique, I know that relatively few gym instructors have 1 client and get paid 40k:rolleyes:
My point was that it was deemed to be necessary because certain people who oversee us feel are entitled to have a an empty gym and gym instructor.
Meanwhile we are made to feel 'self entitled' for thinking we should be getting paid more. And this line keeps on getting spun and spun that we should be happy with our lot, and look at where that has gotten post 2011 teachers, continuously told that they have it cushy too.
I'm just a bit disappointed to see other teachers telling a colleague that they shouldn't be rising above their station.
The OP was essentially asking for tips on how to 'survive' on 60k a year for three years without a pay rise. It has nothing to do with them not rising above their station. OP is taking the piss bigtime.
Have you considered that perhaps it was thought that a gym in the Dail would be a good idea, that it might encourage TDs to exercise instead of propping up the Dail bar? But unfortunately uptake has not been particularly successful?
If you know this case is unique why are you using it to demonstrate your point about teacher wages? If it's not the norm, then it's not a realistic comparison.
The article is from a couple of years ago, but the figures won't have changed wildly.
https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/high-earner-ireland-755580-Jan2013/
Individuals earning 60K or more are in the top 10% of earners in the country. That category includes a lot of teachers.0 -
rainbowtrout wrote: »The OP was essentially asking for tips on how to 'survive' on 60k a year for three years without a pay rise. It has nothing to do with them not rising above their station. OP is taking the piss bigtime.
You don't know the OP's financial situation. 1 income, Dublin 2006 mortgage, kids in college maybe!
Do you remember the post here about the teacher considering early retirement because she couldn't afford to send her kids to college. Would you tell her she was taking the piss bigtime if she was concerned that here wages couldn't cover it?rainbowtrout wrote: »
Have you considered that perhaps it was thought that a gym in the Dail would be a good idea, that it might encourage TDs to exercise instead of propping up the Dail bar? But unfortunately uptake has not been particularly successful?
Yes I have considered that and yes the uptake for politicians has been unsuccessful. And I did miss the part where there were other staff who do use it, so I'll let that go, it's great if it is being used.rainbowtrout wrote: »if you know this case is unique why are you using it to demonstrate your point about teacher wages? If it's not the norm, then it's not a realistic comparison.
I wasn't comparing wages I was commenting on feelings of 'entitlement' to better things.rainbowtrout wrote: »
The article is from a couple of years ago, but the figures won't have changed wildly.
https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/high-earner-ireland-755580-Jan2013/
Individuals earning 60K or more are in the top 10% of earners in the country. That category includes a lot of teachers.
That's in comparison to all workers wages in Ireland. I'd like to know where teachers sit with other professionals after 20 years (assuming of course teachers have worked up the hours to jump onto point 3 from the getgo) . Are they in the top 10% wages bracket of all professionals earners with their 60k 20+ years service?0 -
Join Date:Posts: 25621
Starting to become troll central here.
Any more and we'll be closing it.0 -
Starting to become troll central here.
Any more and we'll be closing it.
Best to close. The OP by a lot of metrics is showing up the the sense of entitlement held by some. The posts that were deleted weren't wrong, just never going to be tolerated in this forum. Either close or keep monitoring the thread like a Chinese apparatchik and keep deleting.0 -
Is the original poster as per the charter not trolling themselves.0
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rainbowtrout wrote: »
Did you even read the full article you linked to instead of the clickbait headline? It says 160k over a four year period. So 40k a year. Not exactly raking it working in Dublin. Granted the gym instructor doesn't seem to be taxed by the work if only one person uses the gym per day but that's not their fault. Perhaps the government would be better tasked by asking if the Dail needs a gym instructor.
And it seems you didn't read the article either.
Or fell for the classic indo click bait article with the actual information buried in a few words deep in the article.
At least unlike others you realized its 160k over 4 years. And whilst opening hours are 27/week, you like most teachers will know that opening hours/teaching hours are not the same as working hours.
Great sub headline - "used by one politician" perfect to rile the anti politician subsector in society.
Then further down when most of the typical indo readers have read what they want to read, it throws in "used by 400 staff of oirechtas" each month.
So the "one politician" becomes 400 staff users.
Sort of the same click bait as dail bar bull. The number one seller is coffee followed by tea and it's open to everyone who visits. But indo will only mention such items at the very end after their wild headline along the lines of 100,000 pints in dail bar (served over a five year period)0 -
60K after 12 years (including allowances), ~17 weeks paid annual leave which is over 3 times the norm, and less working hours per week than the norm for a full time worker. Pre-2011 so pension based on final salary, which is ~70k. A little bit of perspective badly needed by the OP.0
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Bruno Mealy Ginkgo wrote: »It's a big demotivation I think OP. It was definitely a big factor in why I quit last year. The salary scale in teaching starts well but it is far too long and the increments too small.
Well my suggestion to all who struggle with this is to try being self employed for a while, with little or no certainty about your next weeks income, never mind next year. Might put a different gloss on it for you..0 -
evolving_doors wrote: »You don't know the OP's financial situation. 1 income, Dublin 2006 mortgage, kids in college maybe!
Again, lots of people are in that situation, some who earn far more than the OP and some who earn a lot less. Most earn a lot less.
'I have a mortgage' is not a justifiable reason for a national pay rise. Salaries are based on what the market will pay (private sector mainly) and the perceived value of a job/qualifications, not the potential outgoings of individuals.evolving_doors wrote: »Do you remember the post here about the teacher considering early retirement because she couldn't afford to send her kids to college. Would you tell her she was taking the piss bigtime if she was concerned that here wages couldn't cover it?
No I wouldn't tell her she was taking the piss. Now if she was close to retirement it would be fair to assume that she was on the upper end of the payscale rather than the lower end. There's a bigger problem in the country if a person in the top 10% of earners in the country can't afford college.evolving_doors wrote: »That's in comparison to all workers wages in Ireland. I'd like to know where teachers sit with other professionals after 20 years (assuming of course teachers have worked up the hours to jump onto point 3 from the getgo) . Are they in the top 10% wages bracket of all professionals earners with their 60k 20+ years service?
A comparison with all other workers is a fair comparison. It puts quite a lot of teachers in the top tier of earners in society, regardless of what other professions are earning.
Teachers are not comparable with other professionals after 20 years. We are public sector workers. There is a set payscale. There are few teachers working in the private sector in comparison. Anecdotally they would not have comparable conditions (not paid in summer, no access to public sector pension etc, in some places paid a flat rate with no pay scale).
What professions do you want to compare them to? Are you going to compare them to people who entered that profession and stayed in the same job for 20 years (for a fair comparison) or are you going to compare them to senior accountants, senior engineers, consultants in hospitals? Because while there aren't a huge amount of opportunities for promotion in teaching, they do exist. So you would need to compare like for like if you want to go down that road.0 -
Well my suggestion to all who struggle with this is to try being self employed for a while, with little or no certainty about next weeks income, never mind next year. Might put a different gloss on it for you..
I was self employed before teaching and am self employed again now after a stint back in the private sector to reestablish myself. In my opinion teaching in the Dublin area when you have to support yourself is a lifestyle choice I can't afford. If teachers generally are willing to continue for the wages they're on then it will never change but it's just not an option for me.0 -
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Bruno Mealy Ginkgo wrote: »I was self employed before teaching and am self employed again now after a stint back in the private sector to reestablish myself. In my opinion teaching in the Dublin area when you have to support yourself is a lifestyle choice I can't afford. If teachers generally are willing to continue for the wages they're on then it will never change but it's just not an option for me.
Well there is a certain attraction in a guaranteed PS wage and guaranteed PS pension.0 -
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Well there is a certain attraction in a guaranteed PS wage ....
Sure and moths are attracted to a flame.
How long do you think it's taken myself and most of my colleagues to 'guarantee' their wages.and guaranteed PS pension.
and what's so great about that. You're only getting about 15% back on top of 85% that you paid in... and that's assuming you start off on full time job out of college (you know, the one with the 'guaranteed' wage that people are on about).0 -
rainbowtrout wrote: »Again, lots of people are in that situation, some who earn far more than the OP and some who earn a lot less. Most earn a lot less.
True, but we're talking about professionals. Well, that's if you consider teaching a profession anyway! It's as close as you can get to a comparrison to compare professionals. It's nuts to be comparing a teacher's wage to a TV repair man.rainbowtrout wrote: »'I have a mortgage' is not a justifiable reason for a national pay rise.
Yes it is, it's called the cost of living index.rainbowtrout wrote: »Salaries are based on what the market will pay (private sector mainly) and the perceived value of a job/qualifications, not the potential outgoings of individuals.
And what should 'the market' pay for education? Is 60k too much. I say it isn't given the time served and comparison with other professionals.rainbowtrout wrote: »No I wouldn't tell her she was taking the piss. Now if she was close to retirement it would be fair to assume that she was on the upper end of the payscale rather than the lower end.
Yes it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that it was a teacher on the upper end.
And it would be perfectly reasonable for that person to ask advice about making provisions when they know their wage wont cover the cost of living (and sustaining a family).
And it would be courtesy not to berate them and tell them that they were 'entitled' for looking for alternative means.rainbowtrout wrote: »There's a bigger problem in the country if a person in the top 10% of earners in the country can't afford college.
..and there's an even bigger problem of crocodiles tearing people to pieces in North Queensland.
But anyway, being in your top 10% pushes them outside the qualification threshold for a grant. But if we could compare this profession to other professions I'd like to see how difficult other professionals on better money find it difficult. Are teachers in the top 10% of earners amongst all other professionals?rainbowtrout wrote: »A comparison with all other workers is a fair comparison. It puts quite a lot of teachers in the top tier of earners in society, regardless of what other professions are earning.
Well yes and the average zebra is grey if we average out all the colours.rainbowtrout wrote: »Teachers are not comparable with other professionals after 20 years. We are public sector workers. There is a set payscale. There are few teachers working in the private sector in comparison. Anecdotally they would not have comparable conditions (not paid in summer, no access to public sector pension etc, in some places paid a flat rate with no pay scale).
True, and i think they should be paid more... or maybe you would argue it would make everything balance out if teachers in the public sector got paid less.rainbowtrout wrote: »What professions do you want to compare them to? Are you going to compare them to people who entered that profession and stayed in the same job for 20 years (for a fair comparison) or are you going to compare them to senior accountants, senior engineers, consultants in hospitals? Because while there aren't a huge amount of opportunities for promotion in teaching, they do exist. So you would need to compare like for like if you want to go down that road.
Yes, lets compare then to senior accountants, senior engineers and consultants, they all bring a body of knowledge and experience with them as time goes on. The same as teachers do.
or do we teach and interact the exact same way as we did when we came out of college?0 -
rainbowtrout wrote: »evolving_doors wrote: »You're missing the point. I know this case is unique, I know that relatively few gym instructors have 1 client and get paid 40k:rolleyes:
My point was that it was deemed to be necessary because certain people who oversee us feel are entitled to have a an empty gym and gym instructor.
Meanwhile we are made to feel 'self entitled' for thinking we should be getting paid more. And this line keeps on getting spun and spun that we should be happy with our lot, and look at where that has gotten post 2011 teachers, continuously told that they have it cushy too.
I'm just a bit disappointed to see other teachers telling a colleague that they shouldn't be rising above their station.
The OP was essentially asking for tips on how to 'survive' on 60k a year for three years without a pay rise. It has nothing to do with them not rising above their station. OP is taking the piss bigtime.
Have you considered that perhaps it was thought that a gym in the Dail would be a good idea, that it might encourage TDs to exercise instead of propping up the Dail bar? But unfortunately uptake has not been particularly successful?
If you know this case is unique why are you using it to demonstrate your point about teacher wages? If it's not the norm, then it's not a realistic comparison.
The article is from a couple of years ago, but the figures won't have changed wildly.
https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/high-earner-ireland-755580-Jan2013/
Individuals earning 60K or more are in the top 10% of earners in the country. That category includes a lot of teachers.
Google Brightwater salary survey for 2019 and the top earners are on way more than 60k. 60k is respectable but no way the top, looking at those salaries quoted there, the top end is higher. This doesn’t surprise me I know a few people in those categories earning six figure sums.0 -
OP,
If you're interested in a serious discussion start a thread in work problems. You'll get the full gambit of responses, whereas robust replies here will not be tolerated and considered trolling.
What I can say here is that teaching is an incredibly difficult job in 2019, especially so for a conscientious teacher. More so than many work places (from what I can tell) it can be a toxic work environment. Having a strong, competent principal is important. Working in a Deis school (rather than a special unit) should attract a higher salary. Some posts above calculate DIP allowance as part of Gross salary, which is incorrect. That's an archaic allowance that doesn't apply to teachers for many years.
However, re pay scale etc. That requires a robust conversation.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »OP,
If you're interested in a serious discussion start a thread in work problems. You'll get the full gambit of responses, whereas robust replies here will not be tolerated and considered trolling.
Jeez who died and made you king :pac:
Ya do that op... as long as you don't mention you're a teacher.[Deleted User] wrote: »
What I can say here is that teaching is an incredibly difficult job in 2019, especially so for a conscientious teacher. More so than many work places (from what I can tell) it can be a toxic work environment. Having a strong, competent principal is important.
Thats not what the OP is concerned about.[Deleted User] wrote: »
Working in a Deis school (rather than a special unit) should attract a higher salary. Some posts above calculate DIP allowance as part of Gross salary, which is incorrect. That's an archaic allowance that doesn't apply to teachers for many years.
The op is pre 2011 so dip allowance applies.[Deleted User] wrote: »
However, re pay scale etc. That requires a robust conversation.
The OP can't change the payscale no matter how much robust conversation is had. The op is looking for suggestions as to what approach or viewpoint others take when the increment stops and their capped.0 -
evolving_doors wrote: »
The op is pre 2011 so dip allowance applies.
Who qualifies for this rate? It's not for those that simply do the H Dip. As I said, it's archaic.
As for the other points :rolleyes:0 -
Deleted User wrote: »OP,
If you're interested in a serious discussion start a thread in work problems. You'll get the full gambit of responses, whereas robust replies here will not be tolerated and considered trolling.
What I can say here is that teaching is an incredibly difficult job in 2019, especially so for a conscientious teacher. More so than many work places (from what I can tell) it can be a toxic work environment. Having a strong, competent principal is important. Working in a Deis school (rather than a special unit) should attract a higher salary. Some posts above calculate DIP allowance as part of Gross salary, which is incorrect. That's an archaic allowance that doesn't apply to teachers for many years.
However, re pay scale etc. That requires a robust conversation.
It's not incorrect. Anyone who is on the Pre 2011 payscale is entitled to the dip allowance if they have the dip. Which is still the vast majority of teachers. And the OP says they are close to Point 14 which means they have been working in teaching for at least 12 years. So at the earliest started in 2007, which means they get the dip allowance and degree allowance. Any teacher that started pre 2011 counts both of those as core pay. You get them automatically once you have the degree and dip.
There are few teachers teaching without a dip as it was not a requirement for VEC schools until 2013. But the reality is that most teachers had it anyway.0 -
Looking at the Pre-2011 salary scale here I'm very close to landing on one of those salary points that don't change for years - i.e. no increment at all for 3 years, then an increment, then none for 4 more years, then an increment, then none for 4 further years. Then, you get one final increment where you will spend the rest of your teaching years without a salary increase. As retirement is currently 68, and will probably be at least 70 by the time I get there, that's a great number of years at the same final salary.
What was the initial logic behind structuring pay points like that? It sounds very depressing to have no salary rise at all for years, which when inflation is taken into account sounds like your salary will in fact be decreasing in those years of ostensible 'stagnation'. Does reaching this point of staring at salary stagnation become a bit of a mid-life crisis for some teachers? Career change? Time to take early retirement? I'm certainly feeling older just thinking about being (almost!) at a place which once looked so far away. I googled for survival guides and blogs but to no avail. Is there any financial solace at all in these years, or advice to triumph over this financial disincentive to continue?
If any non teacher started such a mis-leading thread, we would be banned.
The salaries are not stagnant.
There was two increases this year and will be two next year to your net pay with Levy threshold increase and salary increases.0 -
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evolving_doors wrote: »Given the ad hoc internship that I had to go through for 8 years. I think I would be more entitled to 80k. I came in with my eyes open but equating a salary scale with 'actual' years served on low hours and temp contracts by most teachers I think they shouldn't be apologising to anyone for seeing themselves as highly qualified professionals.. and being paid accordingly.
Using the issue of part time hours to justify higher salaries, how convenient.
What about those that start with full hours (some 80% of teachers according to a recent HEA survey), would you reduce that 80k accordingly?
The focus should be ensuring proper job positions for the new teachers, not using their plight to increase salaries across the board.0 -
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What about those that start with full hours (some 80% of teachers according to a recent HEA survey)
I really would love to see someone scrutinise that figure.
It simply does not add up...was it 80% of those who replied to them? Even the colleges do not boast such outlandish figures, but it will be bandied about without scrutiny in the press for years, much like the ludicrous 'average salary' figures.0 -
I really would love to see someone scrutinise that figure.
It simply does not add up...was it 80% of those who replied to them? Even the colleges do not boast such outlandish figures, but it will be bandied about without scrutiny in the press for years, much like the ludicrous 'average salary' figures.
Fair enough, it is not an exact picture.
But I would have thought the situation was improving for new entrants generally0 -
What about those that start with full hours (some 80% of teachers according to a recent HEA survey)
I really would love to see someone scrutinise that figure.
It simply does not add up...was it 80% of those who replied to them? Even the colleges do not boast such outlandish figures, but it will be bandied about without scrutiny in the press for years, much like the ludicrous 'average salary' figures.
For a start primary and secondary teachers both use the salary scale and primary teachers (8 of 14 years) in general don't have the hours problem secondary teachers have. The hours problem us also far worse in some subjects and areas then other.
80% may be high but I'd well believe that over 60% of teachers get a full hours job within 3 years of graduation.
As has been said, the hours problem is nothing to do with the salary scale. It's a red herring the unions use to pivot to salary. They make very sure never to solve the hours problem because then they couldn't do their little pivot.0 -
PhoenixParker wrote: »What about those that start with full hours (some 80% of teachers according to a recent HEA survey)
I really would love to see someone scrutinise that figure.
It simply does not add up...was it 80% of those who replied to them? Even the colleges do not boast such outlandish figures, but it will be bandied about without scrutiny in the press for years, much like the ludicrous 'average salary' figures.
For a start primary and secondary teachers both use the salary scale and primary teachers (8 of 14 years) in general don't have the hours problem secondary teachers have. The hours problem us also far worse in some subjects and areas then other.
80% may be high but I'd well believe that over 60% of teachers get a full hours job within 3 years of graduation.
As has been said, the hours problem is nothing to do with the salary scale. It's a red herring the unions use to pivot to salary. They make very sure never to solve the hours problem because then they couldn't do their little pivot.
Any link to support your assertion that over 60% of teachers get a full hours job within three years of graduation?0 -
What relevance does a salary survey have: how many of these top jobs are there at each level, is it the same around the country etc.Google Brightwater salary survey for 2019 and the top earners are on way more than 60k. 60k is respectable but no way the top, looking at those salaries quoted there, the top end is higher. This doesn’t surprise me I know a few people in those categories earning six figure sums.
The only unbiased relevant statistics are from the CSO:
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elca/earningsandlabourcostsannualdata2018/
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elcq/earningsandlabourcostsq42018finalq12019preliminaryestimates/
€60K is well above average compared to all workers €39K, fulltime workers €48K, ICT is top at €61K, Education average earnings is €43K0 -
rainbowtrout wrote: »It's not incorrect. Anyone who is on the Pre 2011 payscale is entitled to the dip allowance if they have the dip. Which is still the vast majority of teachers. And the OP says they are close to Point 14 which means they have been working in teaching for at least 12 years. So at the earliest started in 2007, which means they get the dip allowance and degree allowance. Any teacher that started pre 2011 counts both of those as core pay. You get them automatically once you have the degree and dip.
There are few teachers teaching without a dip as it was not a requirement for VEC schools until 2013. But the reality is that most teachers had it anyway.
Are you a teacher?
My wife is a pre 2011 teacher and doesn't get it. It's not the H Dip you're thinking of. I'd be delighted if you were right.0 -
evolving_doors wrote: »Yes, lets compare then to senior accountants, senior engineers and consultants, they all bring a body of knowledge and experience with them as time goes on. The same as teachers do.
or do we teach and interact the exact same way as we did when we came out of college?
The senior accountant, senior engineer and consultant don't just get pay rises for experience they get it for the extra responsibility that comes with a senior position. They're not going to do the same job as when they first qualified. You're better off comparing those jobs with a principal as they are management jobs rather than a standard teacher surely.0 -
public servants trade the limited (relatively speaking) top end salaries available against pension, incremental gains, etc etc
the OP is asking a household budget question as far as i can tell0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »Are you a teacher?
My wife is a pre 2011 teacher and doesn't get it. It's not the H Dip you're thinking of. I'd be delighted if you were right.
You don't get the Dip allowance if you completed concurrent teacher training AFAIK.0
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