3 wire rural Scottish supplies

Lackadaisical

As a mater of interest, I was just wondering what's your opinion on the availability of 3-phase for domestic use?
I was just thinking of it in terms of how domestic loads are likely to change towards more inductive requirements with the advent of more heat pumps being used for domestic heating. You've also got some advantages in using 3-phase power as a source for high speed car charging.

While I can't see much advantage for 3-phase in a typical house right now, I wonder will the continental countries that use it be at a serous advantage when it comes to a surge in demand for those two technologies.

Bruthal

We might have 30kw showers then:D

Bruthal

Anyway the advantage of 3 phase for heat pumps would be all in the rotation power rather than the inductive element, as well as the 3 phase giving extra capacity for single phase loads.

Lackadaisical

Air conditioners have always been one of the primary users of 3-phase on the continent, same basic requirements as any other heat pump - big compressor.

antoinolachtnai

If you want to get three-phase at home in an urban area, it can be done for low thousands of euros. Assuming you are DG1, you are being fed from the three-phase network.

But the rural network is mostly single-phase. If you have DG2 on your bill, then you're fed from the overhead single-phase network. It will be pretty pricey to upgrade this. We are unique in Europe in having such a spread out electricity network.

Where I see the 'fun' is when commuters who live in rural areas realise they can save a lot of money by getting an EV. If their neighbours decide to get EVs too and put them all on to charge at the same time, it will put a fair amount of strain on the local single-phase network.

Lackadaisical

I'd assume it would mean more upgrading to 20kV and more local transformers. Doesn't sound all the cheap to achieve.

antoinolachtnai

Lackadaisical wrote: »

I'd assume it would mean more upgrading to 20kV and more local transformers. Doesn't sound all the cheap to achieve.

There are 250,000-odd LV transformers, so no, not cheap! And at the end of it, it's still a single-phase network.

monseiur

As a layman I'd like your professional opinion on the following
Imagine Ireland in 10 to 15 years time, all cars are electric, no more oil fired central heating, Moneypoint power station and all other carbon emitting stations are forced to shut down so all power has to come for renewable green wind power etc.
So the vast majority of workers return home after a day's work at say between 5.30 & 7.00 pm
They plug in their cars to charge 2 to 3 cars per house, they switch on their electric cookers, immersion heaters, electric kettles, microwave ovens etc. etc. plus all different electric pump systems for central heating - Will the electric network system be able to cope with the demand/spike ??
How will the ESB generate enough green power to cope with the demand ?

Lackadaisical

Electric cars pose challenges but in general heating shouldn't. They're proposing to ban oil and gas boilers on new build and I guess deep retrofit where houses reach extremely high levels of energy efficiency.

You're talking about passive or near passive homes, where heat pumps wouldn't need to output very much energy anyway.

I don't think you'll be seeing the end of gas fired central heating in existing buildings (other than those that are retrofitted with passive housing level upgrades.)

Oil heating in rural areas could also be swapped for biomass (wood pellets) without much of an impact on anything other than needing a bigger boiler house.

monseiur

It's not unknown for us to get a spell of really cold, dry calm weather in the middle of winter which could last for a no. of weeks. Calm = no wind power being generated + cold = extra demand on heat etc. So how will the ESB generate enough power to keep up with demand, , wave power, biomass ??
We currently have 2.5 million cars approx. on the road if say 1.5 million electric cars are plugged in at the same time for a period of say 5 hours could the system cope ?? Perhaps we may have to import nuclear generated electricity form UK / Europe :mad:
I have a sneaking feeling that this 'new world order' being pushed by the greens and others hasn't been thought through and we're being sleep walked into the abyss, some one in authority has to shout STOP before it's too late.
Hope I'm wrong

antoinolachtnai

Well there are loads of risks. Another risk is war in Eastern Europe or Western Asia, which could seriously curtail availability of gas. Renewable counterveils that risk to some degree but there are always risks.

The main practical answer to this question is oil, gas and coal. There is plenty gas generation and there is a massive field full of coal down in Moneypoint which isn’t going anywhere and which isn’t currently being used but can be called into action if needed. These plants aren’t going to go away necessarily, even if they are used less and less.

An interconnector to France will also make a tremendous difference.

There are many other issues apart from generation to look at. The transmission network needs reinforcement for instance. The ‘last mile’ network also needs looking at.

2011

monseiur wrote: »

Imagine Ireland in 10 to 15 years time, all cars are electric

Many cars will be electric, but I think that many vehicles won't such as lorries, tractors, trains.

no more oil fired central heating

There will certainly be a lot less oil fired heating but then again homes will require a lot less energy to heat them due to superior insulation.

Moneypoint power station and all other carbon emitting stations are forced to shut down so all power has to come for renewable green wind power etc.

Not a chance. Even if we hit our targets (which we never do) we will continue to use fossil fuels to generate electricity and we will continue to import fossil and nuclear fuelled electricity.

So the vast majority of workers return home after a day's work at say between 5.30 & 7.00 pm
They plug in their cars to charge 2 to 3 cars per house, they switch on their electric cookers, immersion heaters, electric kettles, microwave ovens etc. etc. plus all different electric pump systems for central heating - Will the electric network system be able to cope with the demand/spike ??

What you have highlighted a real issue. What we have already is difficult load profile. Here are a few tactics that can be employed to help deal with this:

1) Encourage greater energy efficiency. This will included disincentivizing devices such as immersion heaters.

2) Penalise those that consume energy during peak demand times and reward those that use energy during off peak with cheaper unit rates. An example of this is dual tariff metering (day / night ESB meters). I imagine that eventually smart metering will provide a more advanced dynamic version of this.

3) Look at energy storage solutions. That way renewable energy that is generated at times that it is not required can be stored until it is required.

4) Encourage micro generation, such as PV solar on residential and commercial premises. Small amounts of excess power can then be sold to the grid, even when this is not possible the load on the grid will be reduced. This will require major upgrades and changes to the national grid.

Consider this, someone returning from work that plugs their EV in to charge generally does not need it to charge immediately. Once it has sufficient charge in the morning they will be satisfied. A smart meter could coordinate when the car is charged depending on the load profile and charge the customer preferential rates if they cooperate.

How will the ESB generate enough green power to cope with the demand ?

We will continue to generate electricity in the cheapest ways possible, such as CHP natural gas turbines. We will also continue to import electricity as and when it suits our needs.