Electric fencing, circuits and leakages.

emaherx

Nobbies wrote: »

Probably being said earlier in this thread but if you want to test how good or bad your earth is.
grip the earth rod/wire tightly in your hand,then put your other hand palm down on the ground

if your getting a shock/tingle your earth is poor.

To do it properly you should completely earth the live line wire too, so drop a good section of the wire to the ground temporarily or ground with a metal bar. Then use a meter on the earth rod anything over 300V is bad (most fence testers only go as low as 500V so any reading on them can be taken as bad)

The issue is if you just put up a brand new fence with 0 earths from vegetation etc then you won't get a shock/tingle from the earth system no matter how bad it is as the circuit won't be complete.

wrangler

Nobbies wrote: »

Probably being said earlier in this thread but if you want to test how good or bad your earth is.
grip the earth rod/wire tightly in your hand,then put your other hand palm down on the ground

if your getting a shock/tingle your earth is poor.

To test it that way you're supposed to earth the fence with laying an iron bar across the fence as well.

''Lay an iron bar across the wires, making a direct connection from the fence line to the ground. Then place your volt meter on the last earth rod in the line to see if there is any voltage between the earth rod and the ground. ''

orm0nd

Nobbies wrote: »

Some here have said when joining your earth bars together, use insulated steel wire. is this a must or is it just somewhat better than using steel galvanised fence wire???

i use the latter myself and current tests well.

Galvanise will rust in time if in contact with soil/grass. Conductivity is on the outside of the wire so it will lose efficiency.

L1985

Sorry guys was away yesterday so just looking at all this now.
That makes a lot of sense so thanks all for the above . I’m having awful hassle with our fence so I’m going to check the earther and put in a new one. I’m not sure of our brand I’ll check this evening when I’m gone. Jesus it’s a lot more complicated then you’d expect thou!!

ABlur

https://ibb.co/NZ1Cn3t

What is this reading telling me? My cheapo meter says 10000volts but what do the amp reading mean?

Nobbies

When fencer manufacturers say a unit will fence say 200 acres. what does that mean??if the mains unit was in the centre of a 200 acre block of land that it would be adequate for fencing round that 200 acre boundary and including lines inside that??

i myself intend to link up a outfarm with the mains unit.this outfarm would be the 3rd townland away from the mains unit at home.

i haven't yet worked out the distance this would be.so when i do figure that out if its within the distance a fence manufacturer say on a unit am i safe to say that unit will go the distance assuming good wire insulators e.t.c

Nobbies

orm0nd wrote: »

Galvanise will rust in time if in contact with soil/grass. Conductivity is on the outside of the wire so it will lose efficiency.

so would galvanised earth rod bars need replacing then too after aperiod of time?

emaherx

Nobbies wrote: »

When fencer manufacturers say a unit will fence say 200 acres. what does that mean??if the mains unit was in the centre of a 200 acre block of land that it would be adequate for fencing round that 200 acre boundary and including lines inside that??

i myself intend to link up a outfarm with the mains unit.this outfarm would be the 3rd townland away from the mains unit at home.

i haven't yet worked out the distance this would be.so when i do figure that out if its within the distance a fence manufacturer say on a unit am i safe to say that unit will go the distance assuming good wire insulators e.t.c

Probably 100-150 km of fence, usually the manufacturer states distance and acres but realistically these figures can vary massively between theoretically distance and real world depending on soil type/moisture and earthing along the fence and condition of fence.

Starchasers

_Brian wrote: »

There is also the issue of resistance at joints, leakage at insulators and the difference in wire types.
We have heavy steel wire at the permimiter but inside it’s a mix of steel tie wire and white. With the combination of earths, connections and potentially leaking insulators it’s massively complicated.

Power does strange things in lines that you wouldn’t expect.
Ever notice during a lightening storm lights dim occasionally ? That’s a strike on the grid, you’d expect a surge rather than a dim. But locally to the strike the burst of power temporarily lowered resistance in that section causing local power to flow towards the lowered resistance and the result can be a dip in power at other local locations.

I would never test one section of fence and presume the others are fine.


Obviously the use of copper wire to join sections is a big no no. Where the copper and steel wires join they are dissimilar metals on the presence of voltage and damp and so create an oxide film between them which over time insulated them from each other, causing a gradual drop in power transferred until eventually no power is transferred.

Just as regards a lightning storm, the dip in power is the recloser on the main line feeding your house, detecting a short circuit caused by a lightning strike of several million volts hitting a pole etc. 99% of the time, the recloser turns the power back on within a second which is where you see the momentary dip in the lights. The voltage caused by the lightning strike usually travels down to earth by means of a lightning arrestor which is an insulator at 10 or 20,000 volts but turns into a conductor at a million volts etc.

Your bang on about the dissimilar metals such as copper and galvanized steel etc. Aluminum and zinc (are beside each other I think on the periodic table) from the galvanizing react with copper in the presence of moisture. I’ve even had bad connections on aluminum conductor where every individual strand became insulated from each other because of salt water corrosion. Quality conductor and very good connections will see you right for a long time to come

Starchasers

L1985 wrote: »

Ok so continuing on my electricity based education which I’m realizing is sorely lacking ....Earthers-I get that they are a metal spike into the ground but why do you need more then one? And why if it’s an earther it increases the efficiency but if it’s hitting off a pole accidentally it lowers it?
Also if I’m putting in more then on earther why should they all be in the same spot? And I’m getting from the above all have to be connected ? And why is more then one better? We have only one at home so looking at driving a second one based on this anwser!!
Btw you can see I was a fun child-I hate being told “because” and that’s my dads favorite anwser!!

An earth spike by itself has a high enough resistance to the general mass of earth. A second halves the resistance, a third etc etc, you can’t spend enough time on your earths as it is where people do a short cut and forever suffer. Even if you dug a deep hole to get down to where it is damp earth all year, you could bury a coil of copper wire which is kinda pulled sideways to spread it out to get maximum contact with the damp soil. Again a boggy area will be damp all year and will make siting a fencer easier as regards earths

longgonesilver

One of the posters on here a few years ago said that he had installed his earth bars in the soakaway from his septic tank, so watered daily.

_Brian

ABlur wrote: »

https://ibb.co/NZ1Cn3t

What is this reading telling me? My cheapo meter says 10000volts but what do the amp reading mean?

Your meter is reading 5700 volts, is this good ? Well it depends on the size of the fencer, if it’s putting out 20,000v and you only have 5700 in the fence then you have a serious problem, if it’s a small fencer and putting out 6000v then having 5700 in the fence is good.

It’s showing a short to ground in the direction of the arrow to the left. I presume the 8 is some sort of scale as how serious the short to ground is, it maybe Amps but i don’t know.

Keep moving along and testing and it will bring you to he problem.

emaherx

_Brian wrote: »

Your meter is reading 5700 volts, is this good ? Well it depends on the size of the fencer, if it’s putting out 20,000v and you only have 5700 in the fence then you have a serious problem, if it’s a small fencer and putting out 6000v then having 5700 in the fence is good.

It’s showing a short to ground in the direction of the arrow to the left. I presume the 8 is some sort of scale as how serious the short to ground is, it maybe Amps but i don’t know.

Keep moving along and testing and it will bring you to he problem.

Definitely not amps, 5,700V at 8 amps would kill you before you reached the fence

A 2 second contact with 240v @ 0.1A is lethal.

_Brian

emaherx wrote: »

Definitely not amps, 5,700V at 8 amps would kill you before you reached the fence

Yea I’m a bit rusty but that was my initial thought.
I presume it’s jusr a scale of how bad the ground in the fence is in that direction??

I’ve never used that type of tester but have thought they must be handy.

emaherx

_Brian wrote: »

Yea I’m a bit rusty but that was my initial thought.
I presume it’s jusr a scale of how bad the ground in the fence is in that direction??

I’ve never used that type of tester but have thought they must be handy.

Actually just looked at the manual, it says it is current, but I presume they have left out quite a few decimal spaces to make for easier reading.

So a low single figure means fence is healthy. Higher current on line means there is earthing. In an ideal situation there is no current until fence comes in contact with an animal.

ABlur

emaherx wrote: »

Actually just looked at the manual, it says it is current, but I presume they have left out quite a few decimal spaces to make for easier reading.

So a low single figure means fence is healthy. Higher current on line means there is earthing. In an ideal situation there is no current until fence comes in contact with an animal.

Thanks for that. Fencer covers about 40 acres which is the max of what it is suited to. I find I sometimes get a high 'A' reading close to the unit and the earth bars whether it's due to earth or another reason I'm not sure. They are a handy if expensive gadget to have to locate a fault but I still rely on the quick fence tester to tell me I've voltage.

emaherx

ABlur wrote: »

Thanks for that. Fencer covers about 40 acres which is the max of what it is suited to. I find I sometimes get a high 'A' reading close to the unit and the earth bars whether it's due to earth or another reason I'm not sure. They are a handy if expensive gadget to have to locate a fault but I still rely on the quick fence tester to tell me I've voltage.

If you have faults on the line the reading will always have highest current closest to the unit as current has to flow from unit and back to unit but it may take various paths through different earths loosing power as you head away.

So if you have low current near unit and high voltage at end of fence you know you are in good shape. Real world fence on 40 acres will have some earthing.

Sacrolyte

Sorry to head of on a tangent but
Can of you guys recommend a switching adapter with an “app” whereby you can switch on/off your fencer(in this instance)and know weather it’s on or off instead of the older type that just switched on or off by texting it and you might not have known if it was
on or off and got Zapped.

gozunda

Sacrolyte wrote: »

Sorry to head of on a tangent but
Can of you guys recommend a switching adapter with an “app” whereby you can switch on/off your fencer(in this instance)and know weather it’s on or off instead of the older type that just switched on or off by texting it and you might not have known if it was on or off and got Zapped.

Even that is handy tbh. Do you have one that you'd recommend?

emaherx

Sacrolyte wrote: »

Sorry to head of on a tangent but
Can of you guys recommend a switching adapter with an “app” whereby you can switch on/off your fencer(in this instance)and know weather it’s on or off instead of the older type that just switched on or off by texting it and you might not have known if it was
on or off and got Zapped.

Could use a sonoff device if you have wifi near fencer.

https://sonoff.ie/sonoff/84-sonoff-s20-wi-fi-plug.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjw9JzoBRDjARIsAGcdIDU6Sbsg_OOe4pEHTINMiEVGgEieTjzKEkUyMkf5GmOzG2wdmxeMqtQaAhNBEALw_wcB

I've installed a few different integrated types to control roller doors and shed lighting. Remote control of shed lights is useful when using calving cameras, some times night vision is lacking with certain colours of cows.

Like this one for multiple devices.
https://sonoff.ie/sonoff/52-sonoff-4ch-4ch-r2.html

dar31

I've 2 elephant fencers both are the blue box type but fairly old. They are elephant M45.
Dose any know what out put they are. I've searched online and no mention of a m45. And there is no indication on the unit as to output in joules. Any ideas.

emaherx

dar31 wrote: »

I've 2 elephant fencers both are the blue box type but fairly old. They are elephant M45.
Dose any know what out put they are. I've searched online and no mention of a m45. And there is no indication on the unit as to output in joules. Any ideas.

Well the M40 is 4.0 Joules and the M115 is 11.5 Joules. I'd guess yours is 4.5 Joules.

dar31

emaherx wrote: »

Well the M40 is 4.0 Joules and the M115 is 11.5 Joules. I'd guess yours is 4.5 Joules.

Thanks. Makes sense when young see it.

dar31

emaherx wrote: »

What power are your battery fencers In Joules?many are designed for strip grazing (less than 1km of fence) and might be as low as 0.2 joules.

Here is a rough guide.

So over the farm split in 2 with a fencer on each loop. 150ac each and i measured the lenght of fence using an online tool giving me 15km of wire per 150ac so what size fencer should I be using.
Ideal scenario is one fencer doing the whole farm
On a good day I can maintain 2-2.5 kv on tester other times it can drop to 1.5 kv

_Brian

Hard to beat buying the largest fencer you can afford.
There’s no such thing as a fencer that’s too big and considering most last 20-30 years of service it’s a good investment.

emaherx

dar31 wrote: »

So over the farm split in 2 with a fencer on each loop. 150ac each and i measured the lenght of fence using an online tool giving me 15km of wire per 150ac so what size fencer should I be using.
Ideal scenario is one fencer doing the whole farm
On a good day I can maintain 2-2.5 kv on tester other times it can drop to 1.5 kv

You have issues with your current fencer/earth system or fencing 2.5KV is too low. 3KV is considered minimum but you should be aiming to exceed it. Anything below 6KV on a mains fence and I'd go looking for the issue.

So you have 300acres and only 30KM of fence. I certainly wouldn't go for the 3 Joule option as it bearly meets the requirements but any earthing on fence will quickly kill it. 6 Joule may cover your current needs but if you want to divide farm up further later you'll need bigger.

Truthfully I'd go with _Brian, you can't go too big, with the size of your farm I wouldn't consider anything under 20 Joules for a single unit. And plenty of earth bars 6 -8 it's a big area and your earth system makes up half of circuit

Pod123

Remember one time doing a Fencing repair job for a farmer. He has 300 acres approx divided in half by a narrow road.
Unplugged fencer and did a repair job on one side.
Back to yard and farmer says he will unplug fencer to do other side. I told him I had it unplugged he says I have a fencer for each side. Went in to see a second fencer a stafix approx costed about 600 pounds.
I told him I would get a stronger current using one fencer and would do the whole farm.
He used copper wire to galvanise wire as a feed and earth with one earth stake.
Replaced all the feed and earth wire with proper wire used more earth rods to eliminate leakage.
In the end that one fencer did all the farm and had better current.
Don’t spare the earth bars or using proper insulated wire.

gozunda

Anyone have or use the Gallagher S20 Solar Powered Fencer?

How good is it and what kind of distance will it cover?

wrangler

gozunda wrote: »

Anyone have or use the Gallagher S20 Solar Powered Fencer?

How good is it and what kind of distance will it cover?

It's .2 of a joule, I've a one joule here and it's very easy kill it
On the chart on post 50 of this thread it claims .2 joule will do 3 acres

emaherx

gozunda wrote: »

Anyone have or use the Gallagher S20 Solar Powered Fencer?

How good is it and what kind of distance will it cover?

What sort of area are you looking to cover?

I bought this one for a 20acre out farm
https://www.electric-fence.co.uk/voss-farming-set-12w-solarsystem-box-12v-green-energy-2872.html

Cheaper than the Gallagher and 10x the power. (Will cover 30 acres )