Fair Oaks Farms - Undercover abuse. (Note thee well Mod note in post#34!)

patsy_mccabe

Animal abuse at Fair Oaks Farms in Indiana, USA. This is huge as Fair Oaks is a bit of a shop window for the US dairy industry.
Have a feeling that Coca Cola will drop them like a hot potatoe after this.

Buford T. Justice XIX

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Animal abuse at Fair Oaks Farms in Indiana, USA. This is huge as Fair Oaks is a bit of a shop window for the US dairy industry.
Have a feeling that Coca Cola will drop them like a hot potatoe after this.

There's lots of questions to be answered there, Patsy. The training and supervision of workers at the farms involved would be high up on that list.

But the people undercover who never did anything to flag the abuse for months have a good bit of explaining to do as well.

Dear god, how could you go in day after day knowing that somebody is doing that to the animals under your care?

patsy_mccabe

It always seems to be farm workers caught abusing animals. Never yet seen a farmer abusing his own animals. If he was, he'd be considered physoctic, yet he's the one held resonsible for the actions of his workers.
These animal rights groups always talk about the dairy industry too as if it a single thing. As if this kind of abuse is widespread and typical of what they expose.

_Brian

These monsters only behave like that in front of someone if they are very comfortable they are with like minded spirits.
I always wonder when I hear of these people being under cover for so long, how have they behaved in their time to win the trust of a monster ??

Funny they never show examples of people who go the extra mile for a sick animal or the worry on farmers when an animal is sick. It’s all edited from a single narrow minded viewpoint.
Yes root out the bad eggs, but how about the good employees and farmers left tarnished by this, why not show a balanced view at least.

I never even watch these videos tbh.

TooOldBoots

Nothing to do with the undercover workers. Their job is to investigate. I think they had no choice but to persevere with what they saw until they gathered all the evidence of what is going on there.
A lot of the problem is it is a factory farm. Workers are not farmers. Minimum wage jobs driven by the consumers appetite for cheap food.
Still plenty of abuse and cruelty going on in Ireland too.

Buford T. Justice XIX

TooOldBoots wrote: »

Nothing to do with the undercover workers. Their job is to investigate. I think they had no choice but to persevere with what they saw until they gathered all the evidence of what is going on there.
A lot of the problem is it is a factory farm. Workers are not farmers. Minimum wage jobs driven by the consumers appetite for cheap food.
Still plenty of abuse and cruelty going on in Ireland too.

There was a case in America where an undercover worker was found to be encouraging the abuse...

The company has policies in place to encourage proper procedures to be followed by workers found not to be up to the required standard after any reports of abuse.

Yet, knowing this, they still stood idly by while it was happening?

At best, they were facilitating the abuse.

TooOldBoots

By the looks of what was going on there they didn't uncover the half of what was going on. By your logic it was the undercover worker so, that make so much sense.
It is the workers who were doing the abuse, it seemed to be the culture there that management had instilled.
We are no angels here, their's plenty wrong with the Irish beef and dairy too

Say my name

Response from the owner.

https://youtu.be/uy1WWuUY1vQ

For anyone that doesn't know the history of the farm. This is a large scale tourist attraction dairy farm set up by a veterinarian to show case the best management of Holstein cows and milk production to the general public in the U.S. of A.

Unfortunately the times we live in now we have the polar opposite in people and we have young people coming out of college indoctinated in the sole purpose of ending all animal farming and ending animal consumption and animal product use.
They've zero morals and will go to any lengths to ensure their goal for "the greater good".
Expect more clips from young workers abusing animals broadcast on social media.

This farm was just a prime target.

jaymla627

Say my name wrote: »

Response from the owner.

https://youtu.be/uy1WWuUY1vQ

For anyone that doesn't know the history of the farm. This is a large scale tourist attraction dairy farm set up by a veterinarian to show case the best management of Holstein cows and milk production to the general public in the U.S. of A.

Unfortunately the times we live in now we have the polar opposite in people and we have young people coming out of college indoctinated in the sole purpose of ending all animal farming and ending animal consumption and animal product use.
They've zero morals and will go to any lengths to ensure their goal for "the greater good".
Expect more clips from young workers abusing animals broadcast on social media.

This farm was just a prime target.

Calf accommodation regardless of worker behavior was/is totally inadequate, no way the owners can wash their hands of it in that regard, worked around similar lads on dairy farms abroad and all I can say is any farm owner that leaves calves in the care of what’s in the video is just as culpable

gctest50

Filthy little 1-star charideeeee


https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=17634

Albert Johnson

Regardless of the credentials of the charity it's very difficult to defend the content of the video in question. There's a not so insignificant portion of society that are determined to undermine livestock based agriculture at any cost. Videos such as the above play into the hands of such individuals and only further there hate agenda.

I'm fully aware that editing can make or break a story and some clever splicing together of footage could put a negative spin on the daily workings of almost any farm. However the abuse documented above is rampant and deliberate, there seems to exist a culture of abuse without consequence.

Livestock farming is at crossroads imo as the general non farming public are becoming more aware of the impacts of there food on the environment and everything within it. Making decisions not to support food sources seen as "evil" and "unethical" by biased media is far more palatable to the vast majority than the prospect of other lifestyle changes. We as livestock farmers are seen by many as greedy and indifferent to the suffering we supposedly cause to everything within our care.

It's going to take some equally compelling marketing from pro livestock based industry to turn the tide of mistrust currently bearing down on us. Animal abuse is neither epidemic or confined to dairy only and in the era of modern camera phones and social media it's harder to mask than ever. Scandals of any kind sell and we're facing an up hill battle against the naysayers, our detractors are vocal and unrelenting.

Livestock and farming have been connected for thousands of years as a symbiotic relationship and have been the cornerstone of modern civilization. It's amazing to me that a certain amount of the population believe that they can eradicate this relationship and still expect society to continue as normal, it's a level of entitlement that beggars belief imo.

The whole debate is turning into an us versus them mentality which I believe is a massive error. Education of the wider population of the importance of farmers and agriculture is massively lacking imo. It's only through proving the unfounded view of the opposition are just that that we can hope to gain the upper hand. Attempts to blacken each other and passing incidents off as isolated cases won't do us any favors in the long term.

Grueller

TooOldBoots wrote: »

By the looks of what was going on there they didn't uncover the half of what was going on. By your logic it was the undercover worker so, that make so much sense.
It is the workers who were doing the abuse, it seemed to be the culture there that management had instilled.
We are no angels here, their's plenty wrong with the Irish beef and dairy too

You say that there is plenty of cruelty and abuse in Ireland too and basically repeat it in the last line above. Expand please.

_Brian

TooOldBoots wrote: »

By the looks of what was going on there they didn't uncover the half of what was going on. By your logic it was the undercover worker so, that make so much sense.
It is the workers who were doing the abuse, it seemed to be the culture there that management had instilled.
We are no angels here, their's plenty wrong with the Irish beef and dairy too

In my day I worked on literally hundreds of dairy farms and never ever once saw anyone mistreat animals.
My current role brings me into contact with a wide range of farmers and they have nothing but the best interest of their stock at heart, many takeoff better care of their stock than they do themselves.

Albert Johnson

_Brian wrote: »

TooOldBoots wrote: »

By the looks of what was going on there they didn't uncover the half of what was going on. By your logic it was the undercover worker so, that make so much sense.
It is the workers who were doing the abuse, it seemed to be the culture there that management had instilled.
We are no angels here, their's plenty wrong with the Irish beef and dairy too

In my day I worked on literally hundreds of dairy farms and never ever once saw anyone mistreat animals.
My current role brings me into contact with a wide range of farmers and they have nothing but the best interest of their stock at heart, many takeoff better care of their stock than they do themselves.

I agree Brian that overall the standard of animal welfare is very high in this country. Our methods of farming especially grazing stock for extended periods is light years ahead of the full containment systems practised on the continent and elsewhere. We as an industry need to continue to highlight the high standard of animal welfare that is commonplace across all sectors.

In my experience a lot of the so called animal abuse is simply ignorance of standard daily procedures. Those with a biased interest or unfamiliar with livestock husbandry mistake or otherwise identify certain procedures as abuse. Education on what livestock farming actually involves and why we do what we do is essential to remove some of the myths surroundings good husbandry.

Allegations that abuse is wide spread and accepted​ are unfounded and unnecessary imo especially coming from within the industry. We've enough detractors without seeking to sell out our fellow farmer's.

_Brian

Albert Johnson wrote: »

I agree Brian that overall the standard of animal welfare is very high in this country. Our methods of farming especially grazing stock for extended periods is light years ahead of the full containment systems practised on the continent and elsewhere. We as an industry need to continue to highlight the high standard of animal welfare that is commonplace across all sectors.

In my experience a lot of the so called animal abuse is simply ignorance of standard daily procedures. Those with a biased interest or unfamiliar with livestock husbandry mistake or otherwise identify certain procedures as abuse. Education on what livestock farming actually involves and why we do what we do is essential to remove some of the myths surroundings good husbandry.

Allegations that abuse is wide spread and accepted​ are unfounded and unnecessary imo especially coming from within the industry. We've enough detractors without seeking to sell out our fellow farmer's.

Private pet ownership is where the animal abuse happens in Ireland, and abandoned horses, horses being abused by travellers.

But your not going to see <Modsnip> vegans in protesting at halting sites, no,

Truth is the majority of the investigation and concern for animals is all about veganism against farming rather than concerned people against animal cruelty. It’s just a front, same as them jumping on the climate angle, it’s just a front to push their addenda.

Albert Johnson

_Brian wrote: »

Albert Johnson wrote: »

I agree Brian that overall the standard of animal welfare is very high in this country. Our methods of farming especially grazing stock for extended periods is light years ahead of the full containment systems practised on the continent and elsewhere. We as an industry need to continue to highlight the high standard of animal welfare that is commonplace across all sectors.

In my experience a lot of the so called animal abuse is simply ignorance of standard daily procedures. Those with a biased interest or unfamiliar with livestock husbandry mistake or otherwise identify certain procedures as abuse. Education on what livestock farming actually involves and why we do what we do is essential to remove some of the myths surroundings good husbandry.

Allegations that abuse is wide spread and accepted​ are unfounded and unnecessary imo especially coming from within the industry. We've enough detractors without seeking to sell out our fellow farmer's.

Private pet ownership is where the animal abuse happens in Ireland, and abandoned horses, horses being abused by travellers.

But your not going to see sappy vegans in protesting at halting sites, no,

Truth is the majority of the investigation and concern for animals is all about veganism against farming rather than concerned people against animal cruelty. It’s just a front, same as them jumping on the climate angle, it’s just a front to push their addenda.

+1 on the pet ownership, I see plenty of pets that are kept in totally unsuitable conditions but who's owners won't entertain criticism. They see it as a God given right to treat there pet as they see fit but yet farmers should be upheld to the highest welfare standards.

As regards vegans I think it's a cult that attracts intolerant individuals by and large. It gives them a common cause to aspire to and is a way of rebelling against the "man". I often wonder why someone becomes​ a "hardcore" member due to the negativity involved but it probably panders to said individuals need for constant recognition.

I don't think they always have either the animals or societies best intentions at heart and simply revel in the publicity they attract. Any attempts to voice a different opinion is seen as direct attack upon them as minority group while there blackening of other's is simply "revealing the sordid truth". I always think it's impossible to have a reasonable exchange with unreasonable people.

TooOldBoots

Grueller wrote: »

You say that there is plenty of cruelty and abuse in Ireland too and basically repeat it in the last line above. Expand please.

Just go into any mart in the country and watch the drovers. On any mart day you can spot several instances of them welting the sh1te out of animals. I had to intervene last year with a drover who was very happy with the stick on my animals for no reason.
The haulage side of things is a disaster, I've seen month old calves been packed tight into lorries full of 2 year old cattle. Lads flaking the life out of the animals to get them into trailers.

Then there's the cattle being over crowded into sheds, I can't for the life of me understand the reasoning as uncomfortable cattle will not thrive.
What about the dehorning of animals, its cruel on calves, and much worse on older cattle. Yes their's such thing asanesthetic, which doesn't always work or in reality isn't even used.

In this day and age with things the way they are its only a matter of time before all this comes to light with the general public and when it does the sh1te will really hit the industry here.
No real effort has been made by the Dept of Ag to police this, no checks on stocking densities. They readily turn a blind eye to housing conditions.
No effort by the dairies to police the animal welfare, as long as the milk is clean they dont give a fook, it doesn't bother them if the farmer is walking the cows a mile and a half over and back along a tar road twice a day.

No effort on the breeding societies to introduce polled animals into the breeding line. Charolais is the most used AI for beef yet the society does not have one animal that is polled.
I don't expect any thanks for this post but we all know it to be true

_Brian

Haven’t seen problem in mart in a very long time, granted i dont go lots. Improved handling facilities has improved stock movement in the few I do visit.

Dehorning done properly and in time is no bother, perhaps you should ask a more experienced person to help you with it.

flos1964

Seen animals in the mart take some beatings...

_Brian

flos1964 wrote: »

Seen animals in the mart take some beatings...

What did you do about it ?

Keepgrowing

TooOldBoots wrote: »

Nothing to do with the undercover workers. Their job is to investigate. I think they had no choice but to persevere with what they saw until they gathered all the evidence of what is going on there.
A lot of the problem is it is a factory farm. Workers are not farmers. Minimum wage jobs driven by the consumers appetite for cheap food.
Still plenty of abuse and cruelty going on in Ireland too.

If what you say is true, I hope you’ve reported said abuse

flos1964

_Brian wrote: »

What did you do about it ?

Nothing im ashamed to say...younger man then...did not know any better...different man today....absolutely appalled these days at the state of conditions on some farms...sheep alive with maggots in the fields ...cattle up to there ankles in ****e in sheds in the winter....even that program ear to the ground went to some farm there a while ago on some topic and the cattle were in a shed up to there knees in ****e...sure someone on here even commented on it....things have improved but dont believe people have a clue what goes on.

TooOldBoots

Keepgrowing wrote: »

If what you say is true, I hope you’ve reported said abuse

Report to who?
As I said the Dept of Ag, the Dairies, the Marts and the Transport industry already know and they do f-all about it.
What do you want the likes of me to do, go around making videos and posting them on the internet. Then be known as the one who destroyed an industry.

whelan2

flos1964 wrote: »

Seen animals in the mart take some beatings...

Recently?

whelan2

When I was in college in England the herd assistant kicked the absolute crap out of a cow. We roared at him to stop he kept going. We reported him. No need for that carry on. I am guilty of shouting alright but beating an animal is the lowest of the low

flos1964

whelan2 wrote: »

Recently?

No ...about 10 years ago...cousin was a calf dealer and i used to do mind the cattle for him and every thursday id go into the mart with him...dont work for him anymore and i stay away from that fcuking place...

_Brian

flos1964 wrote: »

Nothing im ashamed to say...younger man then...did not know any better...different man today....absolutely appalled these days at the state of conditions on some farms...sheep alive with maggots in the fields ...cattle up to there ankles in ****e in sheds in the winter....even that program ear to the ground went to some farm there a while ago on some topic and the cattle were in a shed up to there knees in ****e...sure someone on here even commented on it....things have improved but dont believe people have a clue what goes on.

What your calling out there isn’t mainstream at all in my experience. I’m not saying there aren’t bad farmers but it’s not common and stuff like that can be reported to the department. They do take it seriously and act on it. ISPCA will act on it too.

Last time I saw stats in ISPCA something like 95% of animal abuse cases were outside farms. Yet to see these “campaigners” videos you’d think it all happened on farms.

Irish farms work to extremely high standards because in 99% of cases it’s the farmer doing the husbandry rather than minimum wage hacks with no interest.

carrollsno1

jaymla627 wrote: »

Calf accommodation regardless of worker behavior was/is totally inadequate, no way the owners can wash their hands of it in that regard, worked around similar lads on dairy farms abroad and all I can say is any farm owner that leaves calves in the care of what’s in the video is just as culpable

Worked with a lad in nz he was rough with calves (bobbys and heifers, altough that shouldnt matter), broke tails and hit cows he also was a c#nt to work with two he made a threat to me one evening because he was in a mood as well as to other staff over my time there. All incidences against staff and animals were reported to the farmer and still nothing was done, in fairness the farmer prided himself on welfare and they were pretty good by nz standards and even irish standards to a point. However if i had to be undercover there the farmers name would be blackened and not the workers, hed struggle to get a job for sure but could always go at silage instead. I suppose the farmer would only have himself to blane though at the end of it he knew what was happening so he couldnt claim ignorance on the matter, there was a case nearby where the farmers did get done for cruelty but i think they had enough evidence of warnings and eventually sacking the worker who was causing the issues.

flos1964

_Brian wrote: »

What your calling out there isn’t mainstream at all in my experience. I’m not saying there aren’t bad farmers but it’s not common and stuff like that can be reported to the department. They do take it seriously and act on it. ISPCA will act on it too.

Last time I saw stats in ISPCA something like 95% of animal abuse cases were outside farms. Yet to see these “campaigners” videos you’d think it all happened on farms.

Irish farms work to extremely high standards because in 99% of cases it’s the farmer doing the husbandry rather than minimum wage hacks with no interest.

But where is it being reported...thats the thing it isnt ...im ashamed to say i didnt...i could giver you a couple of horror stories....they were not reported..one of the last cases i seen was a field of horses year just outside of town...maybe 20 horses ...not a blade of grass...went to the ispca office...said they were swamped with reports of it but nothing they could do...were not allowed onto the owners premises...as it turned out the pressure must have got to the guy and he started putting out bales of feed to them...a good bit of feed actually.

patsy_mccabe

I was in a local mart last year and saw a young guy beat the crap out of a bullock that wouldn't go up the chute. He beat him so much, he tired himself out. He had to go over and rest against the pen afterwards. Place was packed with everyone staring at him. Have been back again a few times and no sign of yer man. Totally uncalled for.

flos1964

_Brian wrote: »

What your calling out there isn’t mainstream at all in my experience. I’m not saying there aren’t bad farmers but it’s not common and stuff like that can be reported to the department. They do take it seriously and act on it. ISPCA will act on it too.

Last time I saw stats in ISPCA something like 95% of animal abuse cases were outside farms. Yet to see these “campaigners” videos you’d think it all happened on farms.

Irish farms work to extremely high standards because in 99% of cases it’s the farmer doing the husbandry rather than minimum wage hacks with no interest.

Animal husbandry my hole...if you brought a few people out of the town and showed them some cattle being skulled they would faint ...

TooOldBoots

A few things I see wrong at the moment

• Transportation of the animals especially calves, we've already had videos from the continent of Irish calves. Its nothing to see farmers jamming cattle into trailers
• Dairy industry male calves. Next to useless male Jersey and Holstein calves being produced. I've seen these in the marts, lots of them half starved to death. Currently we are exporting the problem out to Europe
• The de-horning of animals. Its cruel on young calves and complete butchery on older animals.
• Castration practices
• Using oversized bulls on cows, this seems to be the norm in the Suckler industry. Hard calving and cesarean sections now the norm.
• Over breeding of Dairy cows to the point that they can hardly walk with the huge udders under them
• Over stocking, not just of sheds but also on grazing ground. Cows being hemmed into paddocks and forced to eat them bare.
• Poor handling facilities. New build grant aided sheds with little or no comfort for the animals
• Poorly thought out regulations and schemes. No regulation enforcement with regard to welfare

flos1964

There is animal cruelty everywhere you look....my father was a farmer, my brothers are farmers, my uncle is a farmer, my cousin is a farmer, i have been on farms all my life...if you mentioned compassion for animals in any of that time you would be laughed off the place...none of them were cruel but i have seen the bad ones....a weinlin in a shed of cattle with a broken leg...a week and a half it took the animal to die...so called pillar of our community owns that farm...a friend worked in a local factory ...when the pigs came in and were hard to drive he was handed a four grain fork and told to blind them...easier to drive to the killing... placed closed now...like i said people dont have a fcuking clue...lovely pictures of rolling meadows on the meat covers....hens clucking in the open....jesus christ just the other day somebody even dumped a rooster on my road...outside with eight girlfriends now...got lucky...so take your stats away and open your eyes and have a look around at the real world.

greysides

Mod note:

This thread is easy to recognise as one that, with polarised view points, could degenerate into name calling, slagging and downright insults.

This is an important topic and one that's going to get more and more attention in future, under one aspect or another. Like it or not, that's the way it's going. Methods are going to have to be defended or justified in farming.

This is a thread where mature behaviour, sensible comments and some mutual respect will be needed during discussion. Sign up to that or don't post.

F&F has a good history of healthy debate. This topic is fitting for the forum and members are well capable of discussing it with knowledge, experience and even-handedness. The moderators be will taking a similar approach.

flos1964

Fair enough, sorry for the bad language...please dont think for a minute i am being an-ti farmer or an-ti meat...i believe it to be the true great food on this planet but if animals are going to give there life for ours then at least we should give them one first...thats all and anybody who denies that a lot of cruelty goes on is being dishonest.

_Brian

flos1964 wrote: »

Animal husbandry my hole...if you brought a few people out of the town and showed them some cattle being skulled they would faint ...

I saw a guy faint one day because he got bird **** on his hand, should we start killing all birds ??

Some people would faint if they were standing watching over a dentists shoulder pulling a tooth, should we be protesting against dentists too based on that ??

Because someone doesn’t understand or can’t stomach something doesn’t mean it’s wrong, it means you should keep away from it and leave it to someone who can stomach it.

How about heart surgery, are you down on that too ?

flos1964

Dude you are getting ridiculously childish but here goes...the comparison between a bird ****ing on someone and someone sawing into a live animal well words fail me...the dentist thing well i pretty sure anesthetic is used ....i would not be able to stomach a dog fight either but hey why not...lets bring it back....heart surgery iv had so no im not down on that.

patsy_mccabe

Skulling cattle as yearlings (using coded farmer speak) will have to stop. We did it here years ago and it's pure madness. All done here now with a local anaesthetic at a month old. Far easier on man and beast.

_Brian

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Skulling cattle as yearlings (using coded farmer speak) will have to stop. We did it here years ago and it's pure madness. All done here now with a local anaesthetic at a month old. Far easier on man and beast.

I’d say it’s very rare now.
1 animal here in last 10years.

Zorya

I saw the video last week and have shown it to family as it shocked me. It is absolutely horrible. I know it is not representative of farmers here as I live among farmers and many of them, especially my close neighbours, are wonderful with their animals. A very small minority are not however, and I have seen that too.

It didn't bother me because I am vegetarian, it bothered me just at an ordinary human level. To be honest I thought those workers, mostly immigrants most likely, are badly treated, and they pass along the abuse they receive to the next weakest creature which happens to be the calf.

I think it is good to bring this out in the open. Even though it is America not here. Farming must always be ethical and humane everywhere.

flos1964

Zorya wrote: »

I saw the video last week and have shown it to family as it shocked me. It is absolutely horrible. I know it is not representative of farmers here as I live among farmers and many of them, especially my close neighbours, are wonderful with their animals. A very small minority are not however, and I have seen that too.

It didn't bother me because I am vegetarian, it bothered me just at an ordinary human level. To be honest I thought those workers, mostly immigrants most likely, are badly treated, and they pass along the abuse they receive to the next weakest creature which happens to be the calf.

I think it is good to bring this out in the open. Even though it is America not here. Farming must always be ethical and humane everywhere.

Define wonderful with their animals?

GrasstoMilk

flos1964 wrote: »

Dude you are getting ridiculously childish but here goes...the comparison between a bird ****ing on someone and someone sawing into a live animal well words fail me...the dentist thing well i pretty sure anesthetic is used ....i would not be able to stomach a dog fight either but hey why not...lets bring it back....heart surgery iv had so no im not down on that.

All calves here are dethroned using anesthetic. Pen of 10 calves would all be given before we start. By the time number 10 is injected the anesthetic is working on the first calf done and away we go dehorning. They're done at about 4 weeks old mostly when horns are very soft and I'd say a minute a d the calf is dehorned.
No stress and calves are happy

patsy_mccabe

_Brian wrote: »

I’d say it’s very rare now.
1 animal here in last 10years.

Not rare around here, I can tell you.

flos1964

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

All calves here are dethroned using anesthetic. Pen of 10 calves would all be given before we start. By the time number 10 is injected the anesthetic is working on the first calf done and away we go dehorning. They're done at about 4 weeks old mostly when horns are very soft and I'd say a minute a d the calf is dehorned.
No stress and calves are happy

brilliant ....now if i could just get you to start on the british royal family...happy days.

flos1964

flos1964 wrote: »

brilliant ....now if i could just get you to start on the british royal family...happy days.

ill get my coat...

TooOldBoots

With regard to debudding/dehorning we should not be having this issue. The Dept should have made moves to bring in all polled bulls from AI. No effort whatsoever has been made. Just a bunch of lazy behind the times public sector workers.
At the moment if you watch cattle going through the ringside you will see 1 in 10 animals that have not been dehorned properly. No one bats an eyelid if a bullock comes into the ringside with freshly sawed off horns.

The same with Dairying, we just followed the NZ model of maximum production, without regard for the cow and the bull calf from these cows. Surly we could have gone down the route of dual breed dairy instead we have those worthless Jersey/Holstein calves which to their detriment nobody will touch. I wonder how many of them were put down this year?

patsy_mccabe

You cannot have all polled bulls. The angus breed is the only truly polled breed. Other breeds have a few fully polled bulls, but to introduce polled genetics, you have to go 2 generations and then only have a 50/50 chance of getting a fully polled animal.

Albert Johnson

I don't agree that you cannot have all polled bulls but genetic diversity until a suitable pool of bulls become available is a problem. The polled trait must have been bred into Angus cattle at some point so it can be done. However it won't happen overnight and will take several generations of careful planned breeding to see widespread results. I vaguely remember reading that South and Central America are much further ahead regarding polled genetics but that F&M prevents the importation of such bloodlines. For the medium term we can only avail of the most humane methods available. I believe that disbudding as calves using anesthesia comes under this umbrella.

There seems to be a local of circumstantial evidence regarding abuse being cited in recent posts. Allegations without actual evidence​ are just that and I don't see how blackening of our industry from within will do anything only needlessly tarnishing our good name. From my own personal experience of encountering and handling large numbers of stock weekly I can honestly say that welfare or abuse incidents are greatly in the minority. Yes they do sometimes occur but the relevant preventive actions are enforced and the idea that the whole debacle is one big conspiracy or cover up is nonsense.

As with everything there is always room for improvement and we should always strive for better conditions. We as farmers depend on both our animals and customer's to allow us continue to farm and it would be very short sighted to think we can hold everyone else to ransom. I do however believe that a large amount of the non farming public view the world through tinted lenses and expect life to play out as a Disney animated Utopia. Life and nature isn't one big walk in the park and to expect otherwise is massively misguided imo.

TooOldBoots

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

You cannot have all polled bulls. The angus breed is the only truly polled breed. Other breeds have a few fully polled bulls, but to introduce polled genetics, you have to go 2 generations and then only have a 50/50 chance of getting a fully polled animal.

I agree patsy but my point is that it was 10 years ago the powers that be should have been doing this. Now we are behind the times and vulnerable.
To say that 99% are done properly simply isn't the truth. Just go and look at the Weanling sales in the next few weeks. The amount of horned animals is shocking. All of which will see the saw blade

flos1964

There is no doubt that a lot of people are very naive about how the food on the table gets there .

flos1964

Not expecting disneyesque type places...thats just offensive....just humanely raised animals....zero graze dairying ffs...cows are just glorified battery hens...how did that abomination get going.