Extensive farming, best practices. Optimum stocking rates.

Willfarman

Teagasc have done very little research in this regard and organic guys have a lot material out there that’s somewhat relevant but but often just a little more ideological than practical for a lot of us.

There is a case for dry stock farms to find that sweet spot in terms of stocking rate. It takes a unique skill set to manage a medium to low input output system in comparison to a more intensive system however this is going to be the only logical direction for a lot of enterprises.
Changes in nitrate derogation limits are afoot. And words like ecology are diversity are buzzing about more than the depleting bumblebees.

I remembered reading this some time back and it took me while to find it but it resonated with me since.
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/teagasc-needs-to-go-back-to-the-drawing-board-on-low-intensity-farming-advice/

Muckit

Totally agree. Our main agricultural research body should be following the trends in each sector and adjusting it's advice to suit.

But their main message regardless of how a sector is returning IMO is "to incease productivity." And all this skewed thinking is being drip fed into our agricultural insitiutions.

It's got to point now where l find them largely irrelevant to how l farm and how l intend farming into the future.

Willfarman

In my opinion one big issue we need a different template for grass management than the reseed, import fertilizer grow all you can and sell the excess to your intensive neighbor.
I think it’s selling the heart of the soil in terms of organic matter p and k and god knows what else and driving your variable costs into territory that sales can’t sustain. You can’t go too far down the low stocking rate or you’ll struggle to cover fixed costs and keep marginal land from going to the birds completely.
Using your dairyfarming or intensive farming neighbors calendar in terms of fertilizer use and turn out dates is going to cause mammoth management issues.
Strangely we may have to look back to look forward. Holding some stock in for a later turnout when grass is actively growing perhaps spread more lime and less nitrogen. Close and cut silage a little later.

Neddyusa

Muckit wrote: »

Totally agree. Our main agricultural research body should be following the trends in each sector and adjusting it's advice to suit.

But their main message regardless of how a sector is returning IMO is "to incease productivity." And all this skewed thinking is being drip fed into our agricultural insitiutions.

It's got to point now where l find them largely irrelevant to how l farm and how l intend farming into the future.

Absolutely - Teagasc have succeeded in making their advice totally irrelevant to nearly all drystock farms in the country.

For the last 30 years their advice for drystock as regards stocking rates, grassland management etc is simply copied and pasted from their dairy blueprints - without any recognition for the drastic difference in economic viability.
For drystock (mostly part-time) farming the objective should be on 1. Labor saving 2. Input saving.

Instead all we hear about is "output"

Willfarman

The fodder crisis ever 4 years or so are becoming a bit of a strain! there’s a great show on tv now.. it is a wet tuesday don’t judge me too harshly! But it called tipping point. Last year in particular the further you were from your tipping point in terms of stocking rate the easier you got along.

yosemitesam1

Mob type grazing has a role to play I think. Maybe not quite as extreme as what's done in other countries, but leaving grass get a bit stronger than recommended, keeping stock in tight while grazing an area but accepting that some is left behind.
Be wary of stripping the place bare going into winter and keep pH fairly right is the plan here.

Dinzee Conlee

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Mob type grazing has a role to play I think. Maybe not quite as extreme as what's done in other countries, but leaving grass get a bit stronger than recommended, keeping stock in tight while grazing an area but accepting that some is left behind.
Be wary of stripping the place bare going into winter and keep pH fairly right is the plan here.

The old rule of 3 days to eat a a paddock, and 3 weeks to recover - what I would have called rotational grazing, is this mob grazing?

yosemitesam1

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

The old rule of 3 days to eat a a paddock, and 3 weeks to recover - what I would have called rotational grazing, is this mob grazing?

Longer rotation. Instead of aiming to be grazing at 3 leaves. Push that out to maybe 5 and instead of aiming for 80-90% eaten,ore like 50ish%.
More residual means that less roots die with each grazing, so grass stays stronger and can fend for itself without degenerating into bent grasses that survive because they don't put effort into growing

yosemitesam1

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Longer rotation. Instead of aiming to be grazing at 3 leaves. Push that out to maybe 5 and instead of aiming for 80-90% eaten,ore like 50ish%.
More residual means that less roots die with each grazing, so grass stays stronger and can fend for itself without degenerating into bent grasses that survive because they don't put effort into growing

.

Dinzee Conlee

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Longer rotation. Instead of aiming to be grazing at 3 leaves. Push that out to maybe 5 and instead of aiming for 80-90% eaten,ore like 50ish%.
More residual means that less roots die with each grazing, so grass stays stronger and can fend for itself without degenerating into bent grasses that survive because they don't put effort into growing

Ah, what I would have considered poor grazing management... So tis mob grazing I was at all along... :P

yosemitesam1

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Ah, what I would have considered poor grazing management... So tis mob grazing I was at all along... :P

Maybe... Important to keep them packed tight on fairly short breaks and continuosly adapt rotation length and/or give different fields different grazing to suit

Panch18

You should hold 1 bullock per hectare if he is outwintered as well

thats a reasonable stocking rate assumption

At times you will have your 2 year old bullock and your yearling bullock on hand at the same time - but the growth will be enough at that stage and you will have the fodder saved as well

CloughCasey1

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Maybe... Important to keep them packed tight on fairly short breaks and continuosly adapt rotation length and/or give different fields different grazing to suit

I think Ped/Say my Name put up a link of organic farming in the merica which they utilised mob grazing. Now these guys were putting 200 head of stock into half an acre of long "overgrown" grass. Their thinking was that they would compete for the grass in the tighter space and utilise more of it. They was strip wire everywhere. Was a good watch.

Panch18

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Longer rotation. Instead of aiming to be grazing at 3 leaves. Push that out to maybe 5 and instead of aiming for 80-90% eaten,ore like 50ish%.
More residual means that less roots die with each grazing, so grass stays stronger and can fend for itself without degenerating into bent grasses that survive because they don't put effort into growing

Would set stocking not be even better?

Buford T. Justice XIX

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Longer rotation. Instead of aiming to be grazing at 3 leaves. Push that out to maybe 5 and instead of aiming for 80-90% eaten,ore like 50ish%.
More residual means that less roots die with each grazing, so grass stays stronger and can fend for itself without degenerating into bent grasses that survive because they don't put effort into growing

Should there be a qualification on sward type with that type of management, yosemite?

I can't imagine PRG dominated ward doing well with that, maybe other grass types would function better like Timothy, Cocksfoot and probably other forage type as well?

Say my name

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

I think Ped/Say my Name put up a link of organic farming in the merica which they utilised mob grazing. Now these guys were putting 200 head of stock into half an acre of long "overgrown" grass. Their thinking was that they would compete for the grass in the tighter space and utilise more of it. They was strip wire everywhere. Was a good watch.

Any links??

The real heavy hitters in mob grazing would propose to move stock twice a day on new breaks. They also see the need to have a proportion walked into the ground.
Then there's the ones who propose to have the entire herd move as one. All age groups in one herd stocked tightly on short breaks to mimic the natural movement of herds and predators moving them on to new ground.

Say my name

Panch18 wrote: »

Would set stocking not be even better?

No ..it's the worst type of farming.
Bad for soil. Bad for grass. Bad for livestock?

Easy on farmer.

Panch18

Say my name wrote: »

No ..it's the worst type of farming.
Bad for soil. Bad for grass. Bad for livestock?

Easy on farmer.

I would certainly dispute the bad for grass and bad for livestock claims

But i am interested in the bad for soil - can you explain more?

yosemitesam1

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

Should there be a qualification on sward type with that type of management, yosemite?

I can't imagine PRG dominated ward doing well with that, maybe other grass types would function better like Timothy, Cocksfoot and probably other forage type as well?

Ye, a mix of grasses and legumes, herbs would do no harm either. Shouldn't be started on a field of weeds either. But ultimately you have to start somewhere and the most important thing is that you're paying attention over multiple rounds of grazing to what is happening and thinking about how are you going to keep adapting things so that you're moving in the right direction.

yosemitesam1

Say my name wrote: »

Any links??

The real heavy hitters in mob grazing would propose to move stock twice a day on new breaks. They also see the need to have a proportion walked into the ground.
Then there's the ones who propose to have the entire herd move as one. All age groups in one herd stocked tightly on short breaks to mimic the natural movement of herds and predators moving them on to new ground.

Man cattle and veld is worth reading, only thing is the authors based in Zimbabwe so doesn't translate directly to here

Say my name

Panch18 wrote: »

I would certainly dispute the bad for grass and bad for livestock claims

But i am interested in the bad for soil - can you explain more?

A plant is the same as you or me.
It's function in life is to grow up and reproduce. The longer it can grow above ground the more roots and root exudates it will put out below ground. Root exudates are good for soil life.
But if it's being constantly cropped. You won't get the growth below ground and you'll constantly have more soil exposed.
Exposed soil is bad for soil life.
The best grazing management for the plant is to have the plant grow to about 80 - 90% of it's maturity and then graze leaving 50% of the plant still there above ground. If it's nipped to the ground you'll kill off roots below ground and the above and below growth will have to start all over again.

Muckit

Well explained young man

yosemitesam1

Panch18 wrote: »

I would certainly dispute the bad for grass and bad for livestock claims

But i am interested in the bad for soil - can you explain more?

Besides poaching. They'll overgraze patches and push everything towards none productive grasses which grow less roots and you'll be out topping so much through the summer that this is further encouraged

Muckit

You'd see lads into gardening transplanting or moving plants. They would cut back the shoots to keep the pressure off the roots while they take.

Upstream

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

Should there be a qualification on sward type with that type of management, yosemite?

I can't imagine PRG dominated ward doing well with that, maybe other grass types would function better like Timothy, Cocksfoot and probably other forage type as well?

Other grasses, forbs and clovers will come into the sward over time. That has been the experience of people like Greg Judy, his videos on YouTube are very good.

I tried it last year, for the first half of the grazing season, but couldn't keep it up mainly due to time commitments. With a bit of planning and management it should actually take less work. (To set up fencing and water access). The whole herd is in one group and you know exactly where they're meant to be, so checking them takes less time. They get trained to the fence and become calmer and easier to manage. Even a simple version moving the cattle every two days so they're not grazing the regrowth should work fairly well.

I'd love to do it again. I think it even helped this year, I know we had a really good winter for grass growth, but I thought the soil health was much better and cattle did better because of that.

There are lots of other advantages too.
The regular moves and longer rest periods lower the worm burden and increases herd health.
The grasses become stronger and out compete the weeds, especially if the weeds get a good trampling.
There's time for plants to flower so the biodiversity increases as well.

Panch18

Say my name wrote: »

A plant is the same as you or me.
It's function in life is to grow up and reproduce. The longer it can grow above ground the more roots and root exudates it will put out below ground. Root exudates are good for soil life.
But if it's being constantly cropped. You won't get the growth below ground and you'll constantly have more soil exposed.
Exposed soil is bad for soil life.
The best grazing management for the plant is to have the plant grow to about 80 - 90% of it's maturity and then graze leaving 50% of the plant still there above ground. If it's nipped to the ground you'll kill off roots below ground and the above and below growth will have to start all over again.

I would disagree there

Constantly grazed grass will have a much thicker swarth, you end up with a carpet of grass which means less exposed soil

For example a field grazed with sheep will always have a thicker sward if grass than a field not grazed by sheep

Panch18

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Besides poaching. They'll overgraze patches and push everything towards none productive grasses which grow less roots and you'll be out topping so much through the summer that this is further encouraged

There is likely to be far far more poaching if you have an extreme amount of cattle on a small area than if they are spread out over a much larger area. Whilst I acknowledge that you would be moving them on quickly I can say from experience that set stocked cattle will do minimal poaching if stocked to correct level

Moving cattle regularly makes cattle unsettled and far more likely to walk and poach

Say my name

Panch18 wrote: »

I would disagree there

Constantly grazed grass will have a much thicker swarth, you end up with a carpet of grass which means less exposed soil

For example a field grazed with sheep will always have a thicker sward if grass than a field not grazed by sheep

It depends how it's grazed.

I've sheep farmer relations and they'd be way down on grass tonnage grown than myself. Be the first to complain of a drought (soil health) and there's no water soakage in the ground it just runs off (again soil life coupled with compaction) and they'd be on best friend relations with the vet buying dosing products.

Panch18

Say my name wrote: »

It depends how it's grazed.

I've sheep farmer relations and they'd be way down on grass tonnage grown than myself. Be the first to complain of a drought (soil health) and there's no water soakage in the ground it just runs off (again soil life coupled with compaction) and they'd be on best friend relations with the vet buying dosing products.

But that depends on how and where they are farming

Soil type could have as much or bigger bearing on those situations than how it’s grazed

We practiced set stocking on 1 of the cattle farms for a few years and it worked extremely well for several reasons which go against the points you both make

Firstly the grass is well grazed and doesn’t get too strong for them - we were spreading minimal or no fertiliser, without fertiliser the grass is fresh and they will graze it brilliantly. The cattle thrive well because they are both content and eating good quality grass, the award gets extremely thick eh oh is the opposite of what you both say

Secondly the cattle are extremely content and are only interested in grazing. Continuously moving cattle means they are continuously upset and looking to be moved, which is why IMO paddock systems don’t suit cattle

Now I’m not saying set stocking is some kind of Mecca and it has its problems namely you need to be vigilant of worm burden, weeds can become an issue and around July time we found cattle thrive slowing, they needed a change.

But overall I disagree with the points that you are both making on the disadvantages of set stocking

yosemitesam1

Panch18 wrote: »

But that depends on how and where they are farming

Soil type could have as much or bigger bearing on those situations than how it’s grazed

We practiced set stocking on 1 of the cattle farms for a few years and it worked extremely well for several reasons which go against the points you both make

Firstly the grass is well grazed and doesn’t get too strong for them - we were spreading minimal or no fertiliser, without fertiliser the grass is fresh and they will graze it brilliantly. The cattle thrive well because they are both content and eating good quality grass, the award gets extremely thick eh oh is the opposite of what you both say

Secondly the cattle are extremely content and are only interested in grazing. Continuously moving cattle means they are continuously upset and looking to be moved, which is why IMO paddock systems don’t suit cattle

Now I’m not saying set stocking is some kind of Mecca and it has its problems namely you need to be vigilant of worm burden, weeds can become an issue and around July time we found cattle thrive slowing, they needed a change.

But overall I disagree with the points that you are both making on the disadvantages of set stocking

Where you started from and how long you kept it up is probably the key. Starting with good fertility, good grass and not doing it indefinitely would give very different results compared to if fertility/grass was anyway iffy and it continued long term

epfff

Easy on farmer.[/quote]

I like the sound of this
Im in

Panch18

epfff wrote: »

Easy on farmer.

I like the sound of this
Im in[/quote]

Well this is important too

Which of us on here in any farming enterprise isn’t just chasing our tails to stand still

_Brian

Panch18 wrote: »

I like the sound of this
Im in
Well this is important too

Which of us on here in any farming enterprise isn’t just chasing our tails to stand still

Maintenance contractor I worked formused to say “no point being a busy fool”, he’d price a job fairly but walk away rather than cut the price to the bone.

Willfarman

Land here would slip back to Sally’s and rushes with very lax set stocking or long rotation. I’m no advocate of small paddocks dairy style for a low input system but ideally like to graze cattle in a large a group as possible.
This is where the dairy reared cattle system really trumps the suckler here with average field size being 10 acre or so. With a group of sheep as well. And just rotate the fields fortnightly.
Blanket spreading N in the spring has run me into trouble before and this has to be really thought about before the vicon pepper shaker.. will I be able to graze this in a timely fashion?

Willfarman

Say my name wrote: »

Panch18 wrote: »

I would disagree there

Constantly grazed grass will have a much thicker swarth, you end up with a carpet of grass which means less exposed soil

For example a field grazed with sheep will always have a thicker sward if grass than a field not grazed by sheep

It depends how it's grazed.

I've sheep farmer relations and they'd be way down on grass tonnage grown than myself. Be the first to complain of a drought (soil health) and there's no water soakage in the ground it just runs off (again soil life coupled with compaction) and they'd be on best friend relations with the vet buying dosing products.

Have they a very high stocking rate? Land can get sheep sick as they say

Jim_11

What’s the thought on silage ground with this system? We have a bit of the farm that’s away from the main block and not fully set up for grazing, it gets 2 sometimes 3 cuts of silage every year

Should it be high yielding prg and have the highest dmd silage for the winter and have the main grazing block seeded with a diverse sward?

Say my name

Willfarman wrote: »

Have they a very high stocking rate? Land can get sheep sick as they say

Nothing but sheep and tillage. With the grass in permanent pasture in big fields and barely any rotation in grazing.
Rape is planted on the tillage ground for winter feeding so I'll grant them that but it's the tillage crops are getting the benefit.
Grass ground is like concrete. It needs plenty of fym and slurry and whatever deep rooting diverse grazing mixtures you could throw at it.

Willfarman

Jim_11 wrote: »

What’s the thought on silage ground with this system? We have a bit of the farm that’s away from the main block and not fully set up for grazing, it gets 2 sometimes 3 cuts of silage every year

Should it be high yielding prg and have the highest dmd silage for the winter and have the main grazing block seeded with a diverse sward?

I think so. Direct your slurry and dung back at it. It’s certainly the handiest way?

Bass Reeves

At present I am going into paddocks that were last grazed in late April. However because there was no growth until 10 days ago grass is from 3''-8'' high. I find cattle thrive away one trick I use is on spots where cattle tend not to graze out Near gates or water troughs to fence them in there first for 2-3 day section. really try to graze tight if graze out is poor I top it. cattle have really started to thrive over last 10 days for me. As Willfarmer posted dairy bred cattle are great to run in large bunches you can even have a 20% of the bunch suckler bred cattle I am the opposite to Will cattle go into 2-3 acre paddocks and graze for 7 days. The one advantage of some of the grass being stemmy is cattle have adequate fibre and stomach is right.

I really find a rotation length of 25-35 days suits my land. Because it is prone to drought it allows me the flexibility to slow down rotation, use premowing if I run low of grass and have to move into a skipped paddock. Not really a fan of the the 3day/3week system.

Lads advocating the system now being started to be used in dryer countrues where grass is left get a nearly silage stage should remember these are much dryer climates. Drought is a much bigger issue, however when they get rain come's in buckets where they get 2-3'' in 24 hours or 10'' over 10-20 days. Bare ground will not hold onto this water while land where there is grass or covers are not grazed completely down will so I am not sure if I would follow there theory completely.

I remember an older farmer who once said that beef cattle should be able to nest in the grass. He may have had a point and the modern theory of grazing at the 16-21 day period is slightly flawed. Dairying is totally different. They want the P in the grass to increase milk solids. They can afford to supplement when grass gets tight and paying for high quality bales which they can use convert into milk when they supplement in spring and autumn.
What many dairy farmer forget is that often in spring they only have 50% of there stock and those 50% are only getting 40-50% of there total intake from grass. As well in there system it is easy to leave cattle inside for 1-2 days in really wet weather.

However I do take certain parts of there system, paddocks, early N application, relatively early turnout, as long a grazing years as possible but closing paddocks from early/mid October and not to graze no matter how good the winter is.

Willfarman

Say my name wrote: »

Nothing but sheep and tillage. With the grass in permanent pasture in big fields and barely any rotation in grazing.
Rape is planted on the tillage ground for winter feeding so I'll grant them that but it's the tillage crops are getting the benefit.
Grass ground is like concrete. It needs plenty of fym and slurry and whatever deep rooting diverse grazing mixtures you could throw at it.

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/lambs-reach-slaughter-weight-earlier-on-multi-species-swards-ucd-research/

Unfortunately chicory wouldn’t like marl and wet here for me I’d say but this is very interesting.

gozunda

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Man cattle and veld is worth reading, only thing is the authors based in Zimbabwe so doesn't translate directly to here

In the US this guy Allan Savory seems to have led the movement for regenerative grazing

https://www.agriculture.com/livestock/cattle/meet-allan-savory-the-pioneer-of-regenerative-agriculture

Another interesting one - I came across

https://waltdavisranch.com/articles/regenerative-grazing

Tbh - much of it involves subdividing range lands into smaller units to be grazed with cattle then being moved from area to area. I believe we call these 'fields' here

Bass Reeves

gozunda wrote: »

In the US this guy Allan Savory seems to have led the movement for regenerative grazing

https://www.agriculture.com/livestock/cattle/meet-allan-savory-the-pioneer-of-regenerative-agriculture

Another interesting one - I came across

https://waltdavisranch.com/articles/regenerative-grazing

Tbh - much of it involves subdividing range lands into smaller units to be grazed with cattle then being moved from area to area. I believe we call these 'fields' here

It is based on the rotation length that Buffalo herds used on these lands. Buffalo herds graze then move on and moved in a circular route to arrive back again when grass was a certain height. Something similar happens on the savanagh in Afric with the herds of Zebra, Wildabeest and Antelope but there's is a yearly migration route

yosemitesam1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It is based on the rotation length that Buffalo herds used on these lands. Buffalo herds graze then move on and moved in a circular route to arrive back again when grass was a certain height. Something similar happens on the savanagh in Afric with the herds of Zebra, Wildabeest and Antelope but there's is a yearly migration route

I think that there's definitely a nice middle ground area to work at in this country. Somewhere in between the dairy and the more extreme rotation lengths. If the goal is to cut back on fertilizer and reseeding, grass has to be left hold onto a certain amount of strength post grazing. But how much exactly should depend on sward type and fertility.
Higher soil fertility and a more ryegrass clover type sward should be grazed earlier and tighter than somewhere with lower fertility and less ryegrass.

No one size fits all and important to remember that the very long rotation lengths are in part to accommodate c4 tropical type grasses as well as major droughts.

Say my name

Willfarman wrote: »

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/lambs-reach-slaughter-weight-earlier-on-multi-species-swards-ucd-research/

Unfortunately chicory wouldn’t like marl and wet here for me I’d say but this is very interesting.

It's all about efficiency and cutting cost.
I take that that's what this thread is about.

I have a read a few books<snip> and I will continue to do so but I will recommend Growing a Revolution by David Montgomery. It's a whole new way of looking at agriculture.
It's about pleasing yourself and not teagasc or the processors.
Every time you turn on that tractor that's money gone or go into the ag store or buy unnecessary dosing or don't implement parasite reducing grazing that's money gone.

On my own place I haven't used a topper in two years, it's there if I want it but I think I should get away again this year without using it. The cows do the work not me. But I don't seem to have the same palatable issues that other people do in getting stock to eat grass.
I was over stocked last year. It took the drought last year for that lesson to be learned. Silage and hay had to be bought in. If was to continue that system I'd be broke. So stock numbers were reduced over the winter. This year has been a breeze so far but I won't be going back to increase stock numbers. The cows here now are in fantastic condition and the latest report from icbf had me up on milk production up till the end of April which kind of surprised me.

Willfarman

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

I think that there's definitely a nice middle ground area to work at in this country. Somewhere in between the dairy and the more extreme rotation lengths. If the goal is to cut back on fertilizer and reseeding, grass has to be left hold onto a certain amount of strength post grazing. But how much exactly should depend on sward type and fertility.
Higher soil fertility and a more ryegrass clover type sward should be grazed earlier and tighter than somewhere with lower fertility and less ryegrass.

No one size fits all and important to remember that the very long rotation lengths are in part to accommodate c4 tropical type grasses as well as major droughts.

It is finding that sweet spot for stocking rate I suppose. For eg I have far from cracked it but I can outwinter x amount of sheep here thanks to a bit of help from good neighbors. A small increase in numbers would have me housing some of them, feeding a good bit more meal overall and the added costs come to a lot more than the extra ewes cover. Been there done that! In low margin enterprises a low Margin can’t really be cured by higher output in general unless you can magic up more land for them. Low margin can become no margin.

gozunda

Willfarman wrote: »

It is finding that sweet spot for stocking rate I suppose. For eg I have far from cracked it but I can outwinter x amount of sheep here thanks to a bit of help from good neighbors. A small increase in numbers would have me housing some of them, feeding a good bit more meal overall and the added costs come to a lot more than the extra ewes cover. Been there done that! In low margin enterprises a low Margin can’t really be cured by higher output in general unless you can magic up more land for them. Low margin can become no margin.

I find it depends on the suitability of the land used. Good dry fields will take some over wintering . Lower elevated stuff not so much. Heavy clay hear rules out practically any stock in winter.

Willfarman

gozunda wrote: »

I find it depends on the suitability of the land used. Good dry fields will take some over wintering . Lower elevated stuff not so much. Heavy clay hear rules out practically any stock in winter.

If I had sense! But with cattle hitting the shed around mid October most years if there’s a cover of grass I always muddle through with the grace of god. Need plenty of ground. Bunches of 40 together max as the lowland type sheep always flock and graze as a bunch and maul more than they graze if not and impossible to keep ground under them.Last winter was unbelievable never had it as easy but it really benefited the land too particularly silage.

Muckit

Jim_11 wrote: »

Should it be high yielding prg and have the highest dmd silage for the winter and have the main grazing block seeded with a diverse sward?

This is the way right or wrong l have things set up.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Mod note:Folks, quit the attacks on other posters. This is a discussion site and one of the points about discussion is dealing and discussing with people who have a different viewpoint to your own. Discuss the point and keep the discussion on topic rather than other posters. Anything else will not be tolerated.

Buford T. Justice.

wrangler

gozunda wrote: »

I find it depends on the suitability of the land used. Good dry fields will take some over wintering . Lower elevated stuff not so much. Heavy clay hear rules out practically any stock in winter.

There's no right or wrong system, like you my land isn't suitable for outwintering, it just destroys it,
Heavy clay land will grow more grass than most land and minding it over the winter pays well in the growing season

Willfarman

heavy land isn’t sheep land at all really but they are the only way to utilize all that extra grass we supposedly grow because we haven’t developed cattle with webbed feet! Did you come by that mixed species trial Rangler? What do you think?