Question re Leaf type 1 to type 2 cable

BoatMad

This is something that has puzzled me.

If I use my Nissan supplied type 1 to type 2 cable and try and plug in a type 2 plug ( as opposed to plugging into a type 2 socket ) then car never sees the evse, this is true also for the fast AC connectors . I recently confirmed this again when I plugged my Nissan cable into the end of a tethered type 2 and it didn’t work

But the signalling in type 1 and 2 are identical only the two other phases are not present in the Nissan cable. ( the bottom two type 2 pins )

Yet for example the Kona works on the fast AC

Something in the Nissan cable is missing , yet I can’t see what that is. I am going to get to the bottom of this, if I need to make up a new type 1 to type 2 cable I will.

Anyone have any ideas ?

Jeditraining1

BoatMad wrote: »

This is something that has puzzled me.

If I use my Nissan supplied type 1 to type 2 cable and try and plug in a type 2 plug ( as opposed to plugging into a type 2 socket ) then car never sees the evse, this is true also for the fast AC connectors . I recently confirmed this again when I plugged my Nissan cable into the end of a tethered type 2 and it didn’t work

But the signalling in type 1 and 2 are identical only the two other phases are not present in the Nissan cable. ( the bottom two type 2 pins )

Yet for example the Kona works on the fast AC

Something in the Nissan cable is missing , yet I can’t see what that is. I am going to get to the bottom of this, if I need to make up a new type 1 to type 2 cable I will.

Anyone have any ideas ?

Yep. They are 2 different comms protocalls. Nissan and #huyandi, while they have the same -12V obviously, use a different comms platform. Therefore you won't see them.

BoatMad

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

Yep. They are 2 different comms protocalls. Nissan and #huyandi, while they have the same -12V obviously, use a different comms platform. Therefore you won't see them.

Sorry that can’t be the case , my Nissan cable works in any type 2 socket , but it won’t work when plugged into a type 2 tethered cable , there no reason however why it shouldn’t work , unless Nissan left something out of the cable that’s causing the incompatibility ( maybe the cable limit resistor ? )

The signaling between type 1 and 2 is identical

Jeditraining1

BoatMad wrote: »

Sorry that can’t be the case , my Nissan cable works in any type 2 socket , but it won’t work when plugged into a type 2 tethered cable , there no reason however why it shouldn’t work , unless Nissan left something out of the cable that’s causing the incompatibility ( maybe the cable limit resistor ? )

The signaling between type 1 and 2 is identical

Well then I'm misunderstanding your original post and no initaing procalls for huyandi and Nissan are different hence why I gave that advice, voltage yes, signalling protocalls no. Also older type 1 Nissan leads did have a resistor in the type 2 head side.

BoatMad

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

Well then I'm misunderstanding your original post and no initaing procalls for huyandi and Nissan are different hence why I gave that advice, volt age yes, signalling protocalls no. Also older type 1 Nissan leads did have a resistor in the type 2 head side.

The signalling protocols are the same otherwise the cars wouldn’t be compatible with the same type 2 EVSES

you miss my point , an evse plugged into a leaf via its type2 “ socket “ works fine , an evse plugged into the leaf via a tethered type 2 cable , utilising the leafs type 2 to type 1 cable doesn’t work.

The only different thing is the Nissan type1 to type 2 cable , so something with it is stopping the charge cycle. This isn’t a signalling issue.

I’ve put a scope on the control pilot , there is no issue with signaling protocols per se, the CP duty cycle is the same protocol for both cars

Jeditraining1

BoatMad wrote: »

The signalling protocols are the same otherwise the cars wouldn’t be compatible with the same type 2 EVSES

you miss my point , an evse plugged into a leaf via its type2 “ socket “ works fine , an evse plugged into the leaf via a tethered type 2 cable , utilising the leafs type 2 to type 1 cable doesn’t work.

The only different thing is the Nissan type1 to type 2 cable , so something with it is stopping the charge cycle. This isn’t a signalling issue.

I’ve put a scope on the control pilot , there is no issue with signaling protocols per se, the CP duty cycle is the same protocol for both cars

Scope will tell you nothing that I haven't said already. I now get everything your saying. But I'll just repeat one word. Protocalls. Scope will tell you all about that. In regards to your problem. My tip to you is it's in your original post and don't look to the car. Leave you with it now.

Zenith74

I asked the same question when I got my Leaf. If I remember right, the plugs are designed to prevent use as extension leads for safety reasons. Not sure whether it's just a length thing (to prevent people putting a load of leads together and causing a fire), or that the 'joint' could easily end up sitting in water (whereas the car and EVSE ends never will) or that there is no latching mechanism at the joint so they could be pulled apart without the power being shutdown cleanly. Also pretty sure I read of people using a Dremel to modify the plugs to allow them plug together and function, but that would not be wise!

BoatMad

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

Scope will tell you nothing that I haven't said already. I now get everything your saying. But I'll just repeat one word. Protocalls. Scope will tell you all about that. In regards to your problem. My tip to you is it's in your original post and don't look to the car. Leave you with it now.

I’m sorry , you don’t understand the technicals , that’s clear , the issue isn’t the difference between the Kona and the leaf , as both activate a type 2 evse

Jeditraining1

BoatMad wrote: »

I’m sorry , you don’t understand the technicals , that’s clear , the issue isn’t the difference between the Kona and the leaf , as both activate a type 2 evse

I work in big bad world of EV. If your saying I don't understand perhaps you should explain yourself better. Have a good day 👍

BoatMad

Zenith74 wrote: »

I asked the same question when I got my Leaf. If I remember right, the plugs are designed to prevent use as extension leads for safety reasons. Not sure whether it's just a length thing (to prevent people putting a load of leads together and causing a fire), or that the 'joint' could easily end up sitting in water (whereas the car and EVSE ends never will) or that there is no latching mechanism at the joint so they could be pulled apart without the power being shutdown cleanly. Also pretty sure I read of people using a Dremel to modify the plugs to allow them plug together and function, but that would not be wise!

Yes but they mate together and many EV suppliers sell type 1 to type 2 cables

The cable has a L-N-E pin set , a CP and a proximity pin , which has different functions on the type 1 side to the type 2 side

That’s all there is , yet the leaf cable works when plugged into a type 2 EVSE socket , but not when it’s plugged into the same EVSE via a tethered type 2 plugged via the leaf cable

( what I did notice is the EVSE type 2 tethered cable has the L2 and L3 pins installed ,even though it’s a single phase EVSE , as does the same cable in the Fast AC cables on the esb chargers , ( which is of course 3 phase capable ) , but these pins play no part in single phase charging ?, the leaf cable has these pins removed

BoatMad

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

I work in big bad world of EV. If your saying I don't understand perhaps you should explain yourself better. Have a good day ��

I have designed EVSE software , and built evses , I understand exactly how the protocol works. this isn’t a protocol issue , because you are mixing up the leaf Kona issue woth the leaf evse , cable converter issue

If there was a protocol issue , the leaf wouldn’t work in the same evse the Kona was plugged into , both type 1 and type 2 connectors support the identical J1772 charging protocol , the only electrical difference is type 2 can support the extra 3 phase live pins ( ie L2 and L3 )

This is an issue solely due to the Nissan Leaf type 1 to type 2 cable , it may not be present in other third party companies converter cables, either the Nissan type 2 end has a design to prevent the pins touching or something else , of it’s just a funny connector, I can easily cut that off and crimp on a proper type 2 end. I was just wondering if someone near knew the definitive reason , but it does t seem likely

Zenith74

Some mention of blocking diodes and resistances used to ensure extensions are not used in this thread might point you in the right direction? https://www.speakev.com/threads/charging-type-1-ev-with-tethered-type-2-cable.125238/

BoatMad

Zenith74 wrote: »

Some mention of blocking diodes and resistances used to ensure extensions are not used in this thread might point you in the right direction? https://www.speakev.com/threads/charging-type-1-ev-with-tethered-type-2-cable.125238/

Thanks for the link , that thread unfortunately jus5 mentions blocking diodes etc,

Personally I don’t see how the protocol can differentiate between an adaptor cable and a extension cable . A diode on the CP line would prevent the J1772 protocol working on any EVSE , and the only other pin , the PP pin is only used in type 2 to place a cable current identification resistor across that pin , to inform the EVSE of the maximum current capability of the cable ( not the car )

I can see anything electrical being done to differentiate , looking at the plugs , I notice the PP or CP pin is well recessed in the nisssn cable , so I wonder of the type 2 socket is slightly different to the type 2 flying lead socket ( ie the plug ) , I have a type 2 wall socket in the junk box somewhere

The easiest thing for me , since nobody here knows of the bat, is to assemble the Nissan cable and a type 2 cable and multimeter out the connections , I suspect that will reveal the issue , I suspect the Nissan plug is designed not to have the control pins connected of you try to use it as an extension cable .

Then it’s a simple matter to cut off the Nissan type 2 end and replace it.

Zenith74

Curious what you come up with!

FWIW I have two non-Nissan Type1-Type2 cables that also will not work if connected to a tethered Type2. Just to confirm that I don't think this is a Nissan thing, I think it's a Type2/Type1 standard thing.

BoatMad

Zenith74 wrote: »

Curious what you come up with!

FWIW I have two non-Nissan Type1-Type2 cables that also will not work if connected to a tethered Type2. Just to confirm that I don't think this is a Nissan thing, I think it's a Type2/Type1 standard thing.

Yes , but what is the “ thing “ type 1 and type 2 are purely physical form standards the J1772 protocol is the same for both , after that they are just single phase mains cables , loads of type 1 to type2 adaptor cables out there , so again what’s the “ thing “

Rafal

For what it is worth, my experience with our Leaf 30kWh, 2016. I have no problems using the provided Nissan Type 1 to Type 2 cable with Type 2 sockets—as expected. I have a Rolec tethered 32A Type 1, no problems either.

I also have a short Type 2 to Type 1 converter, which I use with tethered Type 2/AC43 equipment, without any problems, except at Tesla Type 2 destination chargers (not superchargers), when the EVSE throws an error and so does the Leaf.

BoatMad

Rafal wrote: »

For what it is worth, my experience with our Leaf 30kWh, 2016. I have no problems using the provided Nissan Type 1 to Type 2 cable with Type 2 sockets—as expected. I have a Rolec tethered 32A Type 1, no problems either.

I also have a short Type 2 to Type 1 converter, which I use with tethered Type 2/AC43 equipment, without any problems, except at Tesla Type 2 destination chargers (not superchargers), when the EVSE throws an error and so does the Leaf.

Agreed , but I still can’t tie down what’s specific about the Nissan cable that prevents it from working as an adapter to a tethered type 2

Jeditraining1

Little frustrating watching this. Zenith is right. The protocalls are not simply based on software alone.

BoatMad

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

Little frustrating watching this. Zenith is right. The protocalls are not simply based on software alone.

Jeepers mate , do you want to review J1772 , there no software involved at all, it’s a 1khz square wave , whose duty cycle indicates evse charging capacity and a very simple voltage level handshake to iniatate charging and to finish up the cycle , there is no other communication with the car in J1772

The only reason you get incompatibilities is either the car or the EVSE hasn’t fully implemented J1772 ( or done in properly ) , sadly there are a few inconsistencies but these stop any cable from working with certain evses

This isn’t the case with the Nissan cable , as the cable works in an evse with a type 2socket . Fit a tethered cable, to the same evse and the nisssn cable will not connect . It has to be a physical mod in the nisssn cable , but what

n97 mini

BoatMad wrote: »

Agreed , but I still can’t tie down what’s specific about the Nissan cable that prevents it from working as an adapter to a tethered type 2

It's not Nissan specific. No type-2 to type-1 charging cable will work as an adapter on the type-1 plugs on FCPs.

BoatMad

n97 mini wrote: »

It's not Nissan specific. No type-2 to type-1 charging cable will work as an adapter on the type-1 plugs on FCPs.

OK , this is the case , I know this , infact , its more then FCP tethered , it wont work with any tethered type 2 cable.

So what is the thing that prevents that ?

it isnt software or J1772 compatibility , I know this isnt the issue. It must be the physical arrangement of mating teh type 2 plug and socket on a cable . Yet there are people selling type 1 to type 2 cable adaptors

Ive just emailed my Type 2 connectors supplier to ask him what the issue is

n97 mini

BoatMad wrote: »

OK , this is the case , I know this , infact , its more then FCP tethered , it wont work with any tethered type 2 cable.

So what is the thing that prevents that ?

it isnt software or J1772 compatibility , I know this isnt the issue. It must be the physical arrangement of mating teh type 2 plug and socket on a cable . Yet there are people selling type 1 to type 2 cable adaptors

Ive just emailed my Type 2 connectors supplier to ask him what the issue is

I'm guessing it's something to do with the way PP is wired.

BoatMad

n97 mini wrote: »

I'm guessing it's something to do with the way PP is wired.

There’s only one way, it can be wired , the PP isn’t actually used in type 2 installations , in the same way as it’s used in type 1 ( because type 1 has a disconnect switch wired to the PP)

In a type 2 connector the PP contains a resistor that’s speced to identify the current capacity of the cable, the idea being to prevent a 16A cable being used on a 32 A system.

The thing is , there are suppliers offering short adaptors type1 to type 2 , but , in theory that’s all the Nissan cable is. But it doesn’t work as an adaptor cable

Even the EV connector company doesn’t understand it.

( I can reprogram my EVSE to effectively ignore PP , and that doesn’t sort it either )

Either the Nissan type 2 male plug is special so as to prevent it connecting with a corresponding female type 2 plug as opposed to a female type 2 socket . But I can’t see any physical restraint . I know companies sell type 1 to type 2 adaptors , so it must be possible

BoatMad

I also have a short Type 2 to Type 1 converter, which I use with tethered Type 2/AC43 equipment, without any problems,

It's not Nissan specific. No type-2 to type-1 charging cable will work as an adapter on the type-1 plugs on FCPs.

One of these statements can’t be true
( there no specific adaptor / charger plugs in the type 2 range , so all these cables should be the same )

zilog_jones

Rafal wrote: »

For what it is worth, my experience with our Leaf 30kWh, 2016. I have no problems using the provided Nissan Type 1 to Type 2 cable with Type 2 sockets—as expected. I have a Rolec tethered 32A Type 1, no problems either.

I also have a short Type 2 to Type 1 converter, which I use with tethered Type 2/AC43 equipment, without any problems, except at Tesla Type 2 destination chargers (not superchargers), when the EVSE throws an error and so does the Leaf.

So you're saying the "converter" cable works fine on FCPs but the standard cable doesn't? There must be something different about them so.

My experience is also that a normal Type 1 to Type 2 cable (non-Nissan, generic) doesn't work at all on FCPs.

n97 mini

BoatMad wrote: »

One of these statements can’t be true
( there no specific adaptor / charger plugs in the type 2 range , so all these cables should be the same )

The short ones that are sold as adapters work, the long ones sold as charging cables don't.

creedp

n97 mini wrote: »

The short ones that are sold as adapters work, the long ones sold as charging cables don't.

All this talk of protocols, etc blows my mind so it would be much appreciated if you could confirm to my simple mind that the short Type 1 to Type 2 adaptor cable connects the Leaf to the tethered AC cable of the FCP?

Rafal

creedp wrote: »

All this talk of protocols, etc blows my mind so it would be much appreciated if you could confirm to my simple mind that the short Type 1 to Type 2 adaptor cable connects the Leaf to the tethered AC cable of the FCP?

Yes, I can confirm that my short, 0.5m length, Type 2 to Type 1 converter cable works with all Irish FCPs that have a tethered AC43 lead. I usually use it when I arrive at an FCP and I find that DC is in use. Most (not all) FCPs allow simultaneous use of AC43 and a DC plug. This gives me approx 15% (Leaf 30kWh) in the 30 mins of waiting for Chademo to become available—invaluable if arriving with < 10%, when DC tends to be slow anyway. Sometimes if the wait is excessively long (Kona) this gives me enough of a charge to move on.

This is the one I use: https://evcables.co.uk/index.php/catalogsearch/result/?q=Chc016

I have used it some 50–60 times over the 3 years of ownership, both in Ireland, and when travelling in UK. Occasionally you find an FCP that does not allow AC43 when DC is in use, but this is extremely rare.

The only situation when it throws an error that I have encountered was when trying to use a Tesla destination charger marked as suitable for all “electric vehicles”, ie. a tethered Type 2 that is not marked and reserved for Tesla only. I think this is because there is a difference in the length of a pin, which does not contact properly with the converter cable.

creedp

Rafal wrote: »

Yes, I can confirm that my short, 0.5m length, Type 2 to Type 1 converter cable works with all Irish FCPs that have a tethered AC43 lead. I usually use it when I arrive at an FCP and I find that DC is in use. Most (not all) FCPs allow simultaneous use of AC43 and a DC plug. This gives me approx 15% (Leaf 30kWh) in the 30 mins of waiting for Chademo to become available—invaluable if arriving with < 10%, when DC tends to be slow anyway. Sometimes if the wait is excessively long (Kona) this gives me enough of a charge to move on.

This is the one I use: https://evcables.co.uk/index.php/catalogsearch/result/?q=Chc016

I have used it some 50–60 times over the 3 years of ownership, both in Ireland, and when travelling in UK. Occasionally you find an FCP that does not allow AC43 when DC is in use, but this is extremely rare.

The only situation when it throws an error that I have encountered was when trying to use a Tesla destination charger marked as suitable for all “electric vehicles”, ie. a tethered Type 2 that is not marked and reserved for Tesla only. I think this is because there is a difference in the length of a pin, which does not contact properly with the converter cable.

Thanks for the advice. I have on many occasions arrived at a FCP with the a car using the DC charger and wished I could use the AC port. Must now work out if that option is worth the €160 odd price tag.

Rafal

Mine was a little lower, GBP 129 at the time, and free shipping to Ireland. Perhaps you can find them cheaper elsewhere nowadays, or haggle a little.

_dof_

BoatMad wrote: »

One of these statements can’t be true
( there no specific adaptor / charger plugs in the type 2 range , so all these cables should be the same )

If you're trying to daisychain 2 standard cables together, won't the resistor in each cable between PP and PE which indicates the cable's current carrying capacity be connected in parallel, so the overall resistance will be too low.

Since the overall resistance will fall below the limits to indicate a 32A capable cable and the EVSE will refuse to charge.

Or maybe the PP or CP pins are slightly recessed so when daisy chaning they're not connected but when plugged into the socket on the EVSE, they do make a connection.

horse7

Hi late to the show, did anyone solve this, i used my cable at publin charge points type 2 to my type 1 nissan leaf without any problem, so now i have a wall charger at home, i bought an adapter so i can connect the wall charger to my car at home but it will not work, any help appreciated.

slave1

I had an adapter for a short period of time like you are doing now, I remember some adapter specifically stated NOT compatible with a Nissan Leaf, which one have you?

horse7

https://www.amazon.de/Adapter-Charging-Electric-Vehicles-Converts/dp/B07ZJ4KY15?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1&psc=1

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120022266#Comment_120022266

I have a hypervolt type 2 tethered evse. I also had an issue placing an adapter onto this, but the issue was actually the evse was set to "random start" so wouldn't start charging the Leaf when I was testing it. I turned this setting off and the adapter does its job now.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B09DBNZKQ9/ref%3Dppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1

The 0.5m usa type

I'm using this for the past couple of months at home with standard Type2<->Type2 single phase 32A cable so that I can use the same cable with our Type2 and Type1 (161 LEAF) cars. I haven't tried it with any tethered chargers but it has worked without issues with our untethered ABL charging point with above cable.

The build quality seems excellent but it probably causes some extra leverage on the LEAFs charging port so I wedged some extra support under the adapter when in use.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003784723702.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.27.4f031802Z4BrSf