Prime time tonight (30th May) - EV vs ICE race

Old diesel

It seems prime time are putting David McCullagh whose a keen EV driver in an ICE car and Miriam O Callaghan into an EV for a run from Dublin to Valentia

Miriam will be using a Zoe.

Low expectations based on fact they aren't using a Kona or other large battery making my cynical mind think they aren't going out of their way to show what an EV can do.

But might be worth a watch all the same.

Edit - 9.35 pm its on at

jprboy

Thanks, OP.

Will watch this (genuinely!)

fricatus

What will the Stig be driving?

Seriously, I hope Miriam is practiced in the basics of using a charger, unlike all those motoring journos who have done videos where they’re standing with a confused look trying to get a ChaDeMo plug into a CCS port, trying to be humorous but just showing up their own ineptitude.

I think I’ll give it a miss. A Zoe is really a city car, and like you say, why not a Kona or e-Niro? Hell why not an i-Pace, e-Tron or Model S? Miriam could afford any of those!

Now I’d watch it if they got Bjørn Nyland to drive the EV and do a mukbang in Supermacs at the Barack Obama Plaza!

NIMAN

I think this will be a stick to beat EVs with.

feichin

I'm not sure about the charging needs of a Zoe, but I do know that a Kerry or Cork to Dublin run takes about an hour and a half longer in a Leaf than an Ice.
This is because you will need two 30 min charges and should drive 20kph slower ie. 100kph instead of 120kph to get the best efficiency from the car.
Against this, is the cost saving, approx €30 petrol or diesel plus €5 in tolls, depending on which route and your starting / finishing point.
The leaf will cost about €2.50 for a night rate charge.
so €35 against €2.50
"Range anxiety" is not an issue once you get comfortable with the car, it soon becomes "range awareness" so that red herring which is regularly thrown up by non EV drivers should be discarded.

fricatus

feichin wrote: »

"range awareness"

Never heard that phrase... nice one!

Old diesel

feichin wrote: »

I'm not sure about the charging needs of a Zoe, but I do know that a Kerry or Cork to Dublin run takes about an hour and a half longer in a Leaf than an Ice.
This is because you will need two 30 min charges and should drive 20kph slower ie. 100kph instead of 120kph to get the best efficiency from the car.
Against this, is the cost saving, approx €30 petrol or diesel plus €5 in tolls, depending on which route and your starting / finishing point.
The leaf will cost about €2.50 for a night rate charge.
so €35 against €2.50
"Range anxiety" is not an issue once you get comfortable with the car, it soon becomes "range awareness" so that red herring which is regularly thrown up by non EV drivers should be discarded.

Where in Kerry were you traveling to or from???? - Miriam is trying to get to Valencia Island I think. Which is very far south in Kerry.

Somewhat different scenario to say Listowel or Tralee.

Edit - thank you for sharing your own experience.

Will certainly be interesting to contrast your experience of 1 hr 30 mins longer to Miriam if she comes back with something mad like 5 hours longer.

NIMAN

Old diesel wrote: »

Where in Kerry were you traveling to or from???? - Miriam is trying to get to Valencia Island I think. Which is very far south in Kerry.

Somewhat different scenario to say Listowel or Tralee.

Yeah, have they picked a deliberately awkward place to try to tell us EVs aren't ready yet for the normal driver, even though its an extreme example which the vast majority of drivers don't do often or ever?

feichin

Old diesel wrote: »

Where in Kerry were you traveling to or from???? - Miriam is trying to get to Valencia Island I think. Which is very far south in Kerry.

Somewhat different scenario to say Listowel or Tralee.

Edit - thank you for sharing your own experience.

Will certainly be interesting to contrast your experience of 1 hr 30 mins longer to Miriam if she comes back with something mad like 5 hours longer.

My journey is Killorglin to Drogheda, so it's a broadly comparable journey.

Won’t be accurate until they include a bangeromics car too

Old diesel

NIMAN wrote: »

Old diesel wrote: »

Where in Kerry were you traveling to or from???? - Miriam is trying to get to Valencia Island I think. Which is very far south in Kerry.

Somewhat different scenario to say Listowel or Tralee.

Yeah, have they picked a deliberately awkward place to try to tell us EVs are ready yet for the normal driver, even though its an extreme example which the vast majority of drivers don't do often or ever?

They could easily have simply done Cork to Dublin and back in a Kona. Still a good 320 mile spin.

Hopefully someone has actually shown Miriam how to use the charging network.

Bet she leaves with no card and does not know you can get the charger started remotely by ringing ESB on the phone number on charger and giving them info that is on the charger.

dubrov

Miriam has already started preparing for the next presidential election. She will be the winner of this piece whatever the outcome

Old diesel

They are covering other stuff too.....

But it's not looking promising when the promo clip shows Miriam saying she doesn't know where shes going to charge and she's on the M7.

Good lord - anyone would think she wants the experiment to fail.

NIMAN

Old diesel wrote: »

They are covering other stuff too.....

But it's not looking promising when the promo clip shows Miriam saying she doesn't know where shes going to charge and she's on the M7.

Good lord - anyone would think she wants the experiment to fail.

I'd like to think that the co-presenter, if he is an EV driver, will try to plug them positively.

Sabre Man

Wouldn't it make more sense to put the EV driver in an EV and the ICE drivcer in an ICE car? Or see who saves the most in a week of regular commuting?

What will they do next? Put a Formula 1 driver in a small car and a regular driver in a Formula 1 car and see who can do 0-60 in the fastest time?

NIMAN

Why even swap the drivers?

They are obviously going to show that the chargers, cables etc are confusing for a new drivers, but it will be, at least for the 1st couple of days of use.

Sure some people couldn't fill their car with petrol or diesel if you made them do it.

Old diesel

Right it's now on......

Water John

Her battery is only half full at the start??

Old diesel

FFS Miriam has never even driven an EV before.

And shes talking of can't go too fast.

And she hasnt planned AT ALL.

Brilliant

ednwireland

Old diesel wrote: »

FFS Miriam has never even driven an EV before.

And shes talking of can't go too fast.

And she hasnt planned AT ALL.

Brilliant

i think they are just trying to point out the difference

Old diesel

She spent two hours charging at Barack Obama plaza and bumped into a Kona.

Yup the same Kona that would have done practically the entire journey on one charge.

Water John

Watchable and balanced ok.
MHR getting rapped.

ednwireland

Old diesel wrote: »

She spent two hours charging at Barack Obama plaza and bumped into a Kona.

Yup the same Kona that would have done practically the entire journey on one charge.

and 10k more

mgn

I don't think this program would even convince Eamon Ryan to buy an electric car.

ratracer

It wouldn’t inspire me to change from ice to ev....

Old diesel

3 hrs 45 mins time difference

Would be interesting to see what happens if you ran a Kona on the trip instead

I assume Newcastlewest was down on the day of the experiment.

Chris_Heilong

Most Irish buyers will buy the cheapest EV possible so they will experience what Miriam did here.

MightyMunster

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Most Irish buyers will buy the cheapest EV possible so they will experience what Miriam did here.

Is the Kona not the best selling EV in Ireland this year?

Orebro

Could they not at least have used an EV capable of DC rapid charging?

feichin

Started out on a long drive not fully charged - A Rookie Mistake - Then missed the M20 slip road in Limerick, I thought she was from Kerry originally!!!!!
There are chargers in Limerick, Adare, Newcastle West, Abbeyfeale, Castleisland, Killarney & Killorglin all either on her route or within a couple of minutes detour.
All her issues were self inflicted, I'm guessing if David McCullough had driven the EV he would of made the journey look far more uneventful and manageable.

Old diesel

Orebro wrote: »

Could they not at least have used an EV capable of DC rapid charging?

Also as someone just pointed out on Facebook - people will think that all EVs take two hours to charge at any charger

dubrov

To be fair, I thought the journey was a reasonable representation of a trip from Dublin to Valencia.
Most will see the journey as a saving of about 30 Euro with and additional time of 3Hrs 45mins.
On a one off journey like that, the equivalent diesel wins hands down.

That doesn't tell the whole story though. Most will only make long journeys 10-12 times a year (including the return leg). Even then, it is likely a single charge would be sufficient. Factor in the additional 1000+ journeys where no additional charge is required or stopping in a petrol station and the annual saving of 1000 Euro plus. Suddenly you are looking at maybe 20+ hours for a saving of maybe 1200.

Most would be happy to drive for 60 Euro an hour after tax.

n97 mini

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Most Irish buyers will buy the cheapest EV possible so they will experience what Miriam did here.

They don't buy the cheapest ICE. In 2009 the BMW 520d was the biggest selling sub model of any car.

unkel

It wasn't a bad program, but two fundamental flaws, which was very disappointing

1. EV was not charged overnight. This simply does not happen. Any EV owner would fully charge the car if they are going to do a long trip the next day
2. They used a Zoe that can only charge at 22kW (some of them can charge at 43kW) - 2 hours charging at BOP. This is a city car, not suitable for long distance travelling (unless you don't mind huge delays).

Why didn't they just use an Ioniq with a similar price as the Golf on the show? That would have been much more realistic. The Golf of course would have won, but there would be less than an hour in it. Two similarly priced cars. A quick overview showing that Ioniq would have half the total cost of ownership compared to a Golf would have convinced hundreds, maybe even thousands of viewers to get EV next time. Or why not use an eGolf or L40?

Or better, compare Kona with the Golf. Kona would not need charging. Is thousands more expensive to buy than Golf, but would have lower total cost of ownership over say 3 years if you do above average mileage

NIMAN

Get out of here Unkel with your reasoned debate!

RTe obviously don't want that.

Interslice

unkel wrote: »

It wasn't a bad program, but two fundamental flaws, which was very disappointing

1. EV was not charged overnight. This simply does not happen. Any EV owner would fully charge the car if they are going to do a long trip the next day
2. They used a Zoe that can only charge at 22kW (some of them can charge at 43kW) - 2 hours charging at BOP. This is a city car, not suitable for long distance travelling (unless you don't mind huge delays).

Why didn't they just use an Ioniq with a similar price as the Golf on the show? That would have been much more realistic. The Golf of course would have won, but there would be less than an hour in it. Two similarly priced cars. A quick overview showing that Ioniq would have half the total cost of ownership compared to a Golf would have convinced hundreds, maybe even thousands of viewers to get EV next time. Or why not use an eGolf or L40?

Or better, compare Kona with the Golf. Kona would not need charging. Is thousands more expensive to buy than Golf, but would have lower total cost of ownership over say 3 years if you do above average mileage

In fairness you could also buy a diesel car to do that trip in one go for 200 quid.

unkel

Interslice wrote: »

In fairness you could also buy a diesel car to do that trip in one go for 200 quid.

Indeed. I've owned many a bangernomics car myself. Most of them I sold for more than I bought them for. And several even cost me less than zero total cost of ownership, even taking into account motor tax, fuel and insurance

Not the point though. This is aimed at people in the market for a new car. So fair to compare a new petrol / diesel car to a new EV. Disappointing that they didn't include a 1 minute section comparing the total cost of ownership between these. It would have been an eye-opener for many people.

NIMAN

I have always thought that they do a half-arsed job when trying to promote EVs in the media.

I have heard a few guys on radio too getting interviewed about EVs, and their knowledge of the technology and current models is always lacking.

Grab All Association

Just watched the repeat. In regards to running costs, it was an unfair comparison using a 1.0TSI petrol Golf and not revealing the amount of fuel used and left in the tank by the Golf.
I hate diesel cars with a passion so I’m in no way advocating on behalf of them, but you’d have gotten better fuel economy using a TDI Golf. Hopefully the future will be a combination of electric, hybrid petrol and small cleaner petrol vehicles.

UsBus

unkel wrote: »

It wasn't a bad program, but two fundamental flaws, which was very disappointing

1. EV was not charged overnight. This simply does not happen. Any EV owner would fully charge the car if they are going to do a long trip the next day

I was happy enough that they started her out not fully charged because with the best of intentions, there will be occasions when you sit into the car and say feck it I forgot to charge the car last night. Maybe when you are an experienced EV driver this becomes the routine, but for me charge points are the main issue at the moment. If a more expensive EV can be charged relatively quickly and maybe once or twice a week for your daily commute that would clinch it for me.

I did feel it was pointless sending a first time EV user out on a long journey like that with no experience of charging etc. Slightly biased towards the ICE in that sense.
With the cost of insuring, taxing and running an ICE these days, there really needs to be a massive ramp up in EV charge points. Whatever about the difficulties in everyone having a charge point at home, if people start to see more charge points available to them, the fear around battery charge would disappear.
For some reason, it feels like there is no real urgency or incentive to get these extra charge points installed.

dubrov

Within a few years, the increased EV range will make public charging redundant. I only see it as temporary infrastructure

slave1

dubrov wrote: »

Within a few years, the increased EV range will make public charging redundant. I only see it as temporary infrastructure

Won't happen, there's a point where increased range will be eliminated by battery weight and in any case there are plenty of people without home charging facilities who will need pubic charging

Old diesel

slave1 wrote: »

dubrov wrote: »

Within a few years, the increased EV range will make public charging redundant. I only see it as temporary infrastructure

Won't happen, there's a point where increased range will be eliminated by battery weight and in any case there are plenty of people without home charging facilities who will need pubic charging

If we are serious about low emissions transport via EVs then facilitating people who can't home charge is ESSENTIAL.

Interslice

unkel wrote: »

Indeed. I've owned many a bangernomics car myself. Most of them I sold for more than I bought them for. And several even cost me less than zero total cost of ownership, even taking into account motor tax, fuel and insurance

Not the point though. This is aimed at people in the market for a new car. So fair to compare a new petrol / diesel car to a new EV. Disappointing that they didn't include a 1 minute section comparing the total cost of ownership between these. It would have been an eye-opener for many people.

NIMAN wrote: »

I have always thought that they do a half-arsed job when trying to promote EVs in the media.

I have heard a few guys on radio too getting interviewed about EVs, and their knowledge of the technology and current models is always lacking.

Half arsed is right. They could do a proper on going series on it.
Would have been nice to see something approaching a proper bit of science. 8 cars doing the journey. A group of 15 year old well maintained hybrid diesel petrol and electric versus their 1 year old counter parts. Cost of ownership over the last year, total cost of fuel for the journey, total emmisions estimates for the journey for CO CO2 NOx, SO2 and particulates. Something like that would show people the real difference to their pocket and the environment. That episode last night was pretty much a waste of time and money. I turned it off half way through.

Tldr tinfoil hat opinion: State tv promotes the low tax electric fuel option that takes away profit from the oil and gas industry and the diesel petrol based EU car manufactures. That will be the day.

unkel

Indeed Interslice. I'll give you a very small example of that comparison you were looking for. My previous car I got for €800, I did all necessary maintenance myself, but it was expensive to tax and to fuel. Even though I do only average mileage, it was cheaper for me, total cost of ownership, to scrap that car and buy a brand new EV

Interslice

unkel wrote: »

Indeed Interslice. I'll give you a very small example of that comparison you were looking for. My previous car I got for €800, I did all necessary maintenance myself, but it was expensive to tax and to fuel. Even though I do only average mileage, it was cheaper for me, total cost of ownership, to scrap that car and buy a brand new EV

As in the various EV savings are covering your loan repayments?

Pouring 1500 - 1800 euro per year into the tax and insurance money pit the last few years. Thinking of getting an ev as my main car next year. Ive a work van and a classic car so that tax and insurance to do 5000 miles a year is getting more and more painfull. Fuel costs for me are minimal. 20 quid a week in petrol into the avensis. I can get freeish fuel if i drive a diesel but choose to knock that on the head as all my driving is urban since last year.

unkel

No loan.

But yeah, the motor tax and petrol savings are more than enough to fully cover the depreciation. And then some. My previous car was a 3l petrol Jag, so about €1700 tax and €2500 petrol per year. Now I pay €120 tax, €150 electricity and €2000 depreciation per year. And zero maintenance so far (more than 2 years in), low insurance, cheap tolls

unkel

unkel wrote: »

No loan.

But yeah, the motor tax and petrol savings are more than enough to fully cover the depreciation. And then some. My previous car was a 3l petrol Jag, so about €1700 tax and €2500 petrol per year. Now I pay €120 tax, €150 electricity and €2000 depreciation per year. And zero maintenance so far (more than 2 years in), low insurance, cheap tolls

While my tax isn't that high, at nearly 800 it's high enough- my petrol is a good 3000 a year -but it's the "car loan" bit for me that means I'd actually be spending more money annually, even taking repairs/servicing into account, than I would at present- and that's what has stopped me taking the plunge.

unkel

Your loan repayments are not a cost. The interest you pay on the loan, and your depreciation are costs.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Your loan repayments are not a cost. The interest you pay on the loan, and your depreciation are costs.

We’re talking the same thing just using different language/labels - at the end of day I look at it from the perspective of total annual earnings spent on “car” over say a 3-5 year period including tax fuel servicing insurance etc

I’ve no car loan right now; car is in good shape (touch wood)- annual fuel costs are high, tax high insurance medium - depreciation is negligible at this stage as its old.

My calculations are still saying “it’s a few grand cheaper per annum to stick with what you have” than take out a car loan with lower fuel tax and insurance but now with a monthly loan - I think I’ll need to sacrifice other things I’m currently spending money on if I’m to afford the additional spend.

BarryD2

mgn wrote: »

I don't think this program would even convince Eamon Ryan to buy an electric car.

Ah sure he wouldn't need one - doesn't need to travel outside the M50!! That's the big difference between the Greens now and the Greens of 20 years ago. They've an increasingly urban focus.