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Interview and GDPR

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    #62
    DonalB1
    Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭DonalB1


    I requested my test so I could assess it myself and ses where I went wrong to learn from again and their response was that they cannot share the test books as they only hold the books. I’m not even sure what that means.

    I know I’m not going to get the job now...but I want to see how they managed to correct half my answers wrong


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    #63
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    I think what it means is that those tests are copyrighted material and they are not supposed to allow them to get into the public domain.

    They can only administer the test and grade them and give you your grade, they cannot give you back your entire graded test.

    Its a neat way of hiding the grading from you.

    I would also presume (if they are smart) that they did not associate any of your personal information with the test, so they wont turn it over under GDPR.


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    #64
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    ....... wrote: »
    I think what it means is that those tests are copyrighted material and they are not supposed to allow them to get into the public domain.

    Many aptitude tests or samples thereof are in the public domain, often released by the companies who produce them themselves.

    Not allowing them into the public domain would involve an element of confidentiality or sensitivity which generally does not apply to such tests, that is not a copyright issue. What you will often find however is a stipulation of no unauthorised copying and distribution of such tests.


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    #65
    DonalB1
    Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭DonalB1


    GM228 wrote: »
    Many aptitude tests or samples thereof are in the public domain, often released by the companies who produce them themselves.

    Not allowing them into the public domain would involve an element of confidentiality or sensitivity which generally does not apply to such tests, that is not a copyright issue. What you will often find however is a stipulation of no unauthorised copying and distribution of such tests.

    Is there any way I can push to get them? The whole thing just annoys me because I know it doesn’t add up.


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    #66
    Masala
    Registered Users Posts: 3,470 ✭✭✭Masala


    DonalB1 wrote: »
    Is there any way I can push to get them? The whole thing just annoys me because I know it doesn’t add up.

    Jeez.... would u not just let it go. So what u find they made a mistake (if they sent you back your test sheet)..... ???? Are you gonna make waves??? I cant believe you are still writing in on this. Thats Life.... tough!!

    if I was an employer on the other side seeing your requests coming through ... I'd drag this on for months if not years.

    You not destined for major progression in any company if this is the type of thing that annoys you.

    Mod
    We try to encourage legal discussion here. Be nice, pls


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    #67
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,776 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    No one has mentioned Nowak?

    https://www.irelandip.com/2018/01/articles/cyber-risk-data-privacy/expanding-scope-personal-data-cjeu-delivers-judgment-nowak/


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    #68
    Masala
    Registered Users Posts: 3,470 ✭✭✭Masala


    Masala wrote: »


    Jeez.... would u not just let it go. So what u find they made a mistake (if they sent you back your test sheet)..... ???? Are you gonna make waves??? I cant believe you are still writing in on this. Thats Life.... tough!!

    if I was an employer on the other side seeing your requests coming through ... I'd drag this on for months if not years.

    You not destined for major progression in any company if this is the type of thing that annoys you.

    Mod
    We try to encourage legal discussion here. Be nice, pls

    Point taken.... apologies to OP. Don't mean to offend. I guess we are all made differently!


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    #69
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    No one has mentioned Nowak?

    https://www.irelandip.com/2018/01/articles/cyber-risk-data-privacy/expanding-scope-personal-data-cjeu-delivers-judgment-nowak/

    Excellent find.


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    #70
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    No one has mentioned Nowak?

    https://www.irelandip.com/2018/01/articles/cyber-risk-data-privacy/expanding-scope-personal-data-cjeu-delivers-judgment-nowak/

    The Nowak case specifically related to written answers in professional examinations confirming those written answers were personal data, that should not be confused with creating any right to challenge a job or request feedback.

    Weather it's scope would apply to an aptitude test is unknown. If it does apply it would only depend on weather or not the aptitude tests were retained, there is no requirement to keep them in an identifiable means after a job has been filled.


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    #71
    DonalB1
    Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭DonalB1


    Masala wrote: »


    Jeez.... would u not just let it go. So what u find they made a mistake (if they sent you back your test sheet)..... ???? Are you gonna make waves??? I cant believe you are still writing in on this. Thats Life.... tough!!

    if I was an employer on the other side seeing your requests coming through ... I'd drag this on for months if not years.

    You not destined for major progression in any company if this is the type of thing that annoys you.

    Mod
    We try to encourage legal discussion here. Be nice, pls

    Of course it annoys me! It’s a job I’ve always wanted that came up in the place I want to live. It’s a job I could see myself in for the rest of my life so I’d obviously be annoyed at not getting a crack at it and definitely at being told I failed a part I didn’t fail. I understand others also want the job and may be a better fit.

    In regards to progression at other companies, I’m doing just fine and earning probably 40% more than this job will ever pay. But money isn’t everything.


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    #72
    rd1izb7lvpuksx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 260 ✭✭rd1izb7lvpuksx


    DonalB1 wrote: »
    Of course it annoys me! It’s a job I’ve always wanted that came up in the place I want to live. It’s a job I could see myself in for the rest of my life so I’d obviously be annoyed at not getting a crack at it and definitely at being told I failed a part I didn’t fail. I understand others also want the job and may be a better fit.

    In regards to progression at other companies, I’m doing just fine and earning probably 40% more than this job will ever pay. But money isn’t everything.


    It's obviously something that's bothering you, so while I wouldn't normally make recommend this course of action, you should make a Data Subject Access Request for the interview records they hold about you.

    Dear Madam/Sir


    I wish to make an access request under Article 15 of the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) for a copy of any information you keep about me, on computer or in manual form in relation to my recent application and assessment for the role of ....


    They are obliged to provide you with a copy of all records that they hold about your application and assessment. However, they may not have stored your answers and instead only kept a record of your result, so you still may not get the information that you are hoping for.


    I know you recognise that this won't help you progress your candidate, but it might also hurt your chances of employment with this company in the future if another position becomes available.


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    #73
    DonalB1
    Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭DonalB1


    Wilson Greasy Rental wrote: »
    It's obviously something that's bothering you, so while I wouldn't normally make recommend this course of action, you should make a Data Subject Access Request for the interview records they hold about you.





    They are obliged to provide you with a copy of all records that they hold about your application and assessment. However, they may not have stored your answers and instead only kept a record of your result, so you still may not get the information that you are hoping for.


    I know you recognise that this won't help you progress your candidate, but it might also hurt your chances of employment with this company in the future if another position becomes available.

    I’m shocked that something that’s state funded isn’t obliged to show you these details if requested under GDPR.

    I just want to see how they marked my paper, their response means I can’t see that. I can only see my result, which is what I’m challenging in the first place. But without the actual test and how they marked it then it’s no use


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    #74
    shar01
    Registered Users Posts: 817 ✭✭✭shar01


    OP, you say they hire / promote from within. Instead of focusing on the dream job why don't you try applying for a different position in the organisation if it comes up.


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    #75
    Glass fused light
    Registered Users Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Glass fused light


    DonalB1 wrote: »
    I’m shocked that something that’s state funded isn’t obliged to show you these details if requested under GDPR.

    I just want to see how they marked my paper, their response means I can’t see that. I can only see my result, which is what I’m challenging in the first place. But without the actual test and how they marked it then it’s no use
    The position will be filled by the time your request and challange is done.

    GDPR requests only cover data which is retained. It's actually good data policy to determine what the minimum data needed to be retained and have an active policy of only storing that data.

    State funded organisations have been dealing with data requests under FOI, (before GDPR was rolled out) which allows anybody to request anything (although they may not be entitled to get the requested items).

    There is also the issue of post interview processing costs, eg secure storage and data requests. They are currently having to spend staff resources who are being paid from the public funds on dealing with your data request. If they have retained the answer book and made an error in the marking, they will have to spend further resources on dealing with your challange of the results and whatever happens after.


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    #76
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,673 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Sometimes it's worth questioning why you didn't get a job.

    I've a friend who works in the civil service. She applied for a job where one of the requirements was having a level 8 degree or equivalent.

    She didn't get called for an interview although she was qualified. That didn't irk her though. She just thought there were other applicants who must have been more qualified than she was. What did p1ss her off was when she heard that two of her male work colleagues got called for interview and neither of them had anything near a level 8 degree or similar (which was a requirement rather than a nice to have).

    She complained, used the old 'did you discriminate against me because I am a woman' and her bosses acknowledged that they were wrong. So what they did was leave her doing her job but raised her pay to that of the job she had applied for. She was happy with that.

    So yeah, if she didn't question why she didn't get called for interview when lesser qualified people got called, she wouldn't have ended up getting her pay rise. I know it's different to the OP, but there are times that it is beneficial to question things.

    This smells off. Civil service managers don't get to make decisions to put someone on a higher pay scale to settle complaints.


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    #77
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,673 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Maybe it's dodgy but I doubt it.

    Her work colleague also told me that this was the case. So, two separate people have told me that this is what happened, one of them being the individual who got her pay bumped up.

    It sounds logical to be honest knowing what I know about the Civil Service. Much easier to fix the problem that way rather than having a full investigation where they know they did wrong.
    How much do you really know about the civil service? Did you you know that almost all recruitment and promotions are done by PAS, totally independent of local management?


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    #78
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,673 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    OP - this case may be relevant for you.

    http://trinitynews.ie/2018/01/exam-scripts-constitues-as-personal-data-rules-european-court-of-justice/

    Is this a statutory public body, created by legislation, or an NGO or service provider that provides services to the public, funded by the State (like Rehab or similar).


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    #79
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    OP - this case may be relevant for you.

    http://trinitynews.ie/2018/01/exam-scripts-constitues-as-personal-data-rules-european-court-of-justice/

    Is this a statutory public body, created by legislation, or an NGO or service provider that provides services to the public, funded by the State (like Rehab or similar).

    The Nowak case has already been mentioned...
    GM228 wrote: »
    The Nowak case specifically related to written answers in professional examinations confirming those written answers were personal data, that should not be confused with creating any right to challenge a job or request feedback.

    Weather it's scope would apply to an aptitude test is unknown. If it does apply it would only depend on weather or not the aptitude tests were retained, there is no requirement to keep them in an identifiable means after a job has been filled.


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    #80
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,887 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Did you you know that almost all recruitment and promotions are done by PAS, totally independent of local management?

    this is not accurate

    plenty of "internal" promotions


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    #81
    Jupiter Mulligan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 525 ✭✭✭Jupiter Mulligan


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    How much do you really know about the civil service? Did you you know that almost all recruitment and promotions are done by PAS, totally independent of local management?

    Recruitments yes.

    Service-wide promotion competitions, yes.

    Internal promotions, no.

    "almost all" - rubbish.


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    #82
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,673 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Riskymove wrote: »
    this is not accurate

    plenty of "internal" promotions
    Jupiter Mulligan wrote: »
    Recruitments yes.

    Service-wide promotion competitions, yes.

    Internal promotions, no.

    "almost all" - rubbish.
    But not too many makey-uppey promotions to cover somebody screwing up in short listing , right?


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    #83
    Jupiter Mulligan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 525 ✭✭✭Jupiter Mulligan


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    But not too many makey-uppey promotions to cover somebody screwing up in short listing , right?

    Agreed. But that wouldn't mean that it hasn't happened from time to time.

    Being cynical, the culture of ass covering in the public service has a long and
    ignoble pedigree.

    Being more reasonable, if a genuine mistake has been made, then it's only right that the victim isn't unfairly punished for someone else's cock-up.


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    #84
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,673 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Jupiter Mulligan wrote: »
    Agreed. But that wouldn't mean that it hasn't happened from time to time.

    Being cynical, the culture of ass covering in the public service has a long and
    ignoble pedigree.

    Being more reasonable, if a genuine mistake has been made, then it's only right that the victim isn't unfairly punished for someone else's cock-up.
    It's kind-of hard to ass cover paying someone a salary above their grade, given the level of reporting and control. But if it is happening, all that has to happen is one FOI request and it will all be exposed.



    Mistakes happen in recruitment all the time. There is no scenario where a candidate gets a payment for a mistake, unless there was discrimination on one of the nine grounds involved.


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