How to get leak fixed

sunnyday1234

Hi All
I have OFCH with an outside boiler and appear to have a leak. Pressure is always zero and if i refill the system enough to get the pressure to 1/2 a bar then the pressure will be back to zero 8 hours later. I drained down the system and refilled with leak sealer and it improved the situation for a day and then back to normal. I presume the pressure is dropping so quickly that its a fairly substantial leak but i have seen water on any radiators inside or around the boiler outside so i have no idea where it is. We bought the house in 2014 and finished it after it was left idle and unfinished during the cold winters of 2011
A local plumber is saying he will call and check for a leak between the boiler and a press in the utility room but he hasnt called and to be honest he appears very interested as im sure leaks are seen as a messy job and time consuming and plumbers dont want to take them on
I have no problem paying someone to fix the issue but want to get it looked out as soon as i can. Firstly is there anything i can do myself to check some areas for leaks ? And is it best to wait for the plumber to come and look at it (if he ever does) or are there any specialised companies that will resolve my issue
Thanks for any help

sunnyday1234

Today i filled the system to 1 bar pressure and several hours later it was back at zero. I put kitchen paper under all the reds and there were all dry. I checked inside the boiler and it was dry. Only thing i did see was there was water around the condensate drain pipe at the back of the boiler . I dried it but water kept re-appearing , i presume this isnt the issue though as this takes water away from the boiler ? I have attached a picture of this 
Is next best step to contact these guys ? https://www.leaktrace.com/services.html

sunnyday1234

Today i filled the system to 1 bar pressure and several hours later it was back at zero. I put kitchen paper under all the reds and there were all dry. I checked inside the boiler and it was dry. Only thing i did see was there was water around the condensate drain pipe at the back of the boiler . I dried it but water kept re-appearing , i presume this isnt the issue though as this takes water away from the boiler ? I have attached a picture of this 
Is next best step to contact these guys ? https://www.leaktrace.com/services.html

Odelay

I suspect your boiler is shot and is leaking water out the condensation pipe.

Give the plumber another shout, last thing you want is to be chasing him in the autumn when everyone is after him.

sunnyday1234

Odelay wrote: »

I suspect your boiler is shot and is leaking water out the condensation pipe.

Give the plumber another shout, last thing you want is to be chasing him in the autumn when everyone is after him.

Interesting . It’s only 4 years old . I didn’t think that water coming out the condensation pipe could depressurise the whole system

Thanks - will chase him down again

sunnyday1234

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

Interesting . It’s only 4 years old . I didn’t think that water coming out the condensation pipe could depressurise the whole system

Thanks - will chase him down again

Here is picture

Odelay

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

Here is picture

Have you been running the boiler recently?

sunnyday1234

Odelay wrote: »

Have you been running the boiler recently?

No , not in a few weeks

However the area now seems dry and pressure still dropping

Odelay

I’m beat. Thought it was an older boiler. Keep hassling the plumber,

K.Flyer

Is that condensate drain pipe just ending above ground level, or does it run off to a drain?

cargen

Do you have an expansion vessel as part of your heating system.
I had a similar problem and my vessel was damaged.
Replaced it and problem is fixed.

sunnyday1234

K.Flyer wrote: »

Is that condensate drain pipe just ending above ground level, or does it run off to a drain?

Its not ending above ground level ,it appears to go off into the ground

sunnyday1234

cargen wrote: »

Do you have an expansion vessel as part of your heating system.
I had a similar problem and my vessel was damaged.
Replaced it and problem is fixed.

Yep i do , i think thats the big red vessel in the hot press ? 
Surely i would see water leaking from it though if it were damaged ?

K.Flyer

I have seen heat exchangers leaking out through the condensate drain before, though they were gas boilers..
If you are definitely not using the boiler check the end of the condensate drain pipe for signs of water an hour or so after the system has been pressurised again.
If the pipe is just going into the ground then maybe disconnect the rubber tube from the boiler to the condensate drain pipe to make it easier to see whats happening.
If its not that you could have a leaking connection on the underground pipework.
Also check all other pipes, fittings and valves around the boiler for signs of leakage.
There is also a possibility that the leak is up at your hot water cylinder, inside on the heating coil. If nothing else is obvious, your plumber will need to isolate the coil from the heating system and see if that stops the pressure drops.

cargen

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

Yep i do , i think thats the big red vessel in the hot press ? 
Surely i would see water leaking from it though if it were damaged ?

It doesn't need to leak.
Usually the membrane inside breaks and it get full of water.
For this reason the system expels the water from the pressure release valve.

sunnyday1234

Thanks but the water has to be going somewhere , where is the pressure release valve sending it ? 
I have walked around the house looking for an overflow pipe in the facia but dont see one

K.Flyer

It would typically look like this, with the bottom part connected to the boiler, or a pipe from the boiler, and usually a pipe connected to the angled outlet. Sometimes it will have a pressure gauge attached to it.

sunnyday1234

Thanks but where would the water be going ? Why cant i see it anywhere ?

loyatemu

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

Thanks but where would the water be going ? Why cant i see it anywhere ?

the pressure release valve opens when the pressure goes above a certain level and water will drip out of a pipe usually on the other side of the wall to the boiler. If the valve sticks open or is gunged up it will leak at lower pressures - we had to get ours replaced recently, gas-boiler, cheap enough job. (pressure is still dropping, but at a much slower rate, I'm guessing there's a small leak somewhere else on the system).

sunnyday1234

Thanks, boiler is outside so where would the pipe with the drip be ?

K.Flyer

If the boiler is outside then the valve would be attached to the boiler with a short pipe towards the ground.
If you cannot see any signs of water then you really need to get someone in with fault finding experience. Leak could very well be underground or, as I said in my previous post, a cylinder coil issue.

sunnyday1234

K.Flyer wrote: »

If the boiler is outside then the valve would be attached to the boiler with a short pipe towards the ground.
If you cannot see any signs of water then you really need to get someone in with fault finding experience. Leak could very well be underground or, as I said in my previous post, a cylinder coil issue.

Yep , getting a plumber to call is the hard part :-)

Citizenpain

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

Thanks, boiler is outside so where would the pipe with the drip be ?

Tap the vessel - does it sound hollow or full?

cargen

You could also try to check the recharge valve at the top of the vessel. It looks like a tyre valve.
If it doesn't release any air the vessel is full and it is likely to be the problem
If it is release air, you have a leak problem.

K.Flyer

cargen wrote: »

You could also try to check the recharge valve at the top of the vessel. It looks like a tyre valve.
If it doesn't release any air the vessel is full and it is likely to be the problem
If it is release air, you have a leak problem.

It may release air, but that does not mean anything, it may have the incorrect pre-charge air pressure. If was aleady correct and you release some air, you have now changed the pressure which will need to be corrected.
This must to be done following the correct method in order to avoid getting an incorrect pre-charge pressure reading.

sunnyday1234

K.Flyer wrote: »

cargen wrote: »

You could also try to check the recharge valve at the top of the vessel. It looks like a tyre valve.
If it doesn't release any air the vessel is full and it is likely to be the problem
If it is release air, you have a leak problem.

It may release air, but that does not mean anything, it may have the incorrect pre-charge air pressure. If was aleady correct and you release some air, you have now changed the pressure which will need to be corrected.
This must to be done following the correct method in order to avoid getting an incorrect pre-charge pressure reading.

Do you know the correct method ?

K.Flyer

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

Do you know the correct method ?

This video will give you an idea of the process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KanqVBXFUOk

cargen

K.Flyer wrote: »

It may release air, but that does not mean anything, it may have the incorrect pre-charge air pressure. If was aleady correct and you release some air, you have now changed the pressure which will need to be corrected.
This must to be done following the correct method in order to avoid getting an incorrect pre-charge pressure reading.

My thinking was.
If it doesn't release any air. I would assume the vessel is the problem.
If it does release air, the problem is somewhere else and the system needs to be look after anyway.
The plumber will recharge the vessel as part of the leak investigation.

K.Flyer

The problem is, by just checking to see if air comes out of the Schrader valve is not in any way an assessment of pre-charge pressure.
The vessel may only have a very small volume of air left in it, not enough to absorb the expansion of the heating system, as a result, the system will over pressurise and lift the safety valve or push out through a weak connection.

Wearb

K.Flyer wrote: »

The problem is, by just checking to see if air comes out of the Schrader valve is not in any way an assessment of pre-charge pressure.
The vessel may only have a very small volume of air left in it, not enough to absorb the expansion of the heating system, as a result, the system will over pressurise and lift the safety valve or push out through a weak connection.

Too much air will also cause the same problem; reducing the ability of the vessel to absorb the expansion.

SixtaWalthers

I think you should try Magic Waterproof Silicone Adhesive Tape. Otherwise, weld it with the advice of the mechanic.

K.Flyer

Wearb wrote: »

Too much air will also cause the same problem; reducing the ability of the vessel to absorb the expansion.

That's right, I meant to add that in at the end, but the phone rang...

sunnyday1234

So I put 1.5 bar pressure in this morning and found out the following

1. Expansion vessel empty , based on sound from tapping it
2. Nothing coming from condensate pipe
3. No water from any connections in utility room , picture attached
4. No water from pressure relief valve , picture attached
5. No water from any other Connections in boiler
6. Looks like pressure will go from 1.5 to zero is 6-8 hours

I think my leak is under ground 😔

sunnyday1234

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

So I put 1.5 bar pressure in this morning and found out the following

1. Expansion vessel empty , based on sound from tapping it
2. Nothing coming from condensate pipe
3. No water from any connections in utility room , picture attached
4. No water from pressure relief valve , picture attached
5. No water from any other Connections in boiler
6. Looks like pressure will go from 1.5 to zero is 6-8 hours

I think my leak is under ground 😔[/quote

Here are pics

K.Flyer

It also may be a leak in the hot water cylinder coil.
Can you post a picture showing all of the cylinder and pipes connected to it.

sunnyday1234

Here you go

K.Flyer

Ok, too close to see what I want.
Take a picture back a bit showing the full height of the cylinder on the side where the yellow eph zone valve is.

sunnyday1234

K.Flyer wrote: »

Ok, too close to see what I want.
Take a picture back a bit showing the full height of the cylinder on the side where the yellow eph zone valve is.

Any good ? That’s at left hand side with no room to go in there

K.Flyer

On the pipe connected to Boiler Return (if I am making out the label correctly) turn the red lever to off position.
Unplug the cable from the yellow zone valve (to ensure it is not activated).
Pressurise the heating system and see if you get a pressure drop. If you don't, then coil in cylinder is faulty.
If you still get a drop, problem is elsewhere.

Dtp1979

K.Flyer wrote: »

On the pipe connected to Boiler Return (if I am making out the label correctly) turn the red lever to off position.
Unplug the cable from the yellow zone valve (to ensure it is not activated).
Pressurise the heating system and see if you get a pressure drop. If you don't, then coil in cylinder is faulty.
If you still get a drop, problem is elsewhere.

If the cylinder is indeed pressurised then the coil isn’t the issue, as the cyl pressure would keep the heating more than topped up!
If it turns out that it is the cyl on low pressure then it’s an expensive baby to replace!!
If the leak is elsewhere then try tech7 leak sealer. Properly dosed, it’s by far the best leak sealer I’ve ever used, by a mile. This will not fix a leaking coil on the cylinder though

sunnyday1234

Dtp1979 wrote: »

K.Flyer wrote: »

On the pipe connected to Boiler Return (if I am making out the label correctly) turn the red lever to off position.
Unplug the cable from the yellow zone valve (to ensure it is not activated).
Pressurise the heating system and see if you get a pressure drop. If you don't, then coil in cylinder is faulty.
If you still get a drop, problem is elsewhere.

If the cylinder is indeed pressurised then the coil isn’t the issue, as the cyl pressure would keep the heating more than topped up!
If it turns out that it is the cyl on low pressure then it’s an expensive baby to replace!!
If the leak is elsewhere then try tech7 leak sealer. Properly dosed, it’s by far the best leak sealer I’ve ever used, by a mile. This will not fix a leaking coil on the cylinder though

used a few of those already. Improved things for one day and then went back to normal. Plumber has said he will call this evening, i am waiting with anticipation...

K.Flyer

Dtp1979 wrote: »

If the cylinder is indeed pressurised then the coil isn’t the issue, as the cyl pressure would keep the heating more than topped up!
If it turns out that it is the cyl on low pressure then it’s an expensive baby to replace!!
If the leak is elsewhere then try tech7 leak sealer. Properly dosed, it’s by far the best leak sealer I’ve ever used, by a mile. This will not fix a leaking coil on the cylinder though

I hear what you're saying, but...

I have a feeling that the cylinder is being used open vented, no sign of a T.& P. valve or tundish etc.
Another reason I say that is because there is also a twin impeller pump partially hidden over on the right hand side of the cylinder.
If the cylinder was unvented and pressurised there shouldn't be a need for the extra pump.
But it still may be u.v., gravity fed with an n.r.v. on the suppy, who knows, half of them are never fitted right in the first place.
Given the valves are available, its worth checking if only to eliminate it being the cause.

+1 on the Tec product, but I would definitely be ensuring it's not the coil before dosing the system.

sunnyday1234

so plumber called last night and disconnected the downstairs rads and refilled the system. There was no pressure drop over night . He reckons its a downstairs rad that is leaking . Ill wait a few more days to make sure pressure doesnt drop and he says next steps are to reconnect all rads downstairs and just start disconnecting one at a time, refill and wait again to find when the pressure drops. If we are lucky then it will be an unused rad like utility room . 
BTW we have a gravity fed system and there is an extra pump for the en suite shower. That whole solution is a bit dodgy, water cuts out to that shower fairly often if you move it from hot to cold quickly or vice versa. You have to turn off shower and back on again but that is something we can live with 
Progress !!

sunnyday1234

update on this : plumber has now disconnected two different rads downstairs and refilled but we still have a pressure drop to zero in 24 hours . Every time i ask him to call again i get comments like "get a new house with new plumbing " :-)
Plumbers definetely dont like fixing leaks

K.Flyer

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

update on this : plumber has now disconnected two different rads downstairs and refilled but we still have a pressure drop to zero in 24 hours . Every time i ask him to call again i get comments like "get a new house with new plumbing " :-)
Plumbers definetely dont like fixing leaks

Was there water leaking from the radiators before he disconnected them?

Does the gauge go completely to zero, or down to approx 0.3 bar.

sunnyday1234

K.Flyer wrote: »

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

update on this : plumber has now disconnected two different rads downstairs and refilled but we still have a pressure drop to zero in 24 hours . Every time i ask him to call again i get comments like "get a new house with new plumbing " :-)
Plumbers definetely dont like fixing leaks

Was there water leaking from the radiators before he disconnected them?

Does the gauge go completely to zero, or down to approx 0.3 bar.

guage goes completely to zero. There was no visible water leaking from anything, thats the mystery. All the downstairs rads connect into this joiner unit in my utility unit and he opened it and said he expected one of them to have no or reduced water in it but they were all full. 
I have attached pictures of this unit , as you can see the second pipe(s) are sealed up. I have 8 rads downstairs so im assuming these are the 8 connections, why are there two pipes for each one ? They are tied together down further. 
I believe all i have to do to continue the work myself is to drain the water , reconnect up the pipes he was testing and move the sealers on to the third pipe(s) , refill and test again , does this sound right ?

sunnyday1234

Attachments

K.Flyer

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

I believe all i have to do to continue the work myself is to drain the water , reconnect up the pipes he was testing and move the sealers on to the third pipe(s) , refill and test again , does this sound right ?

That's a very long way to do it.
Before going to all of that trouble If it was me I would set up a test pump in a way to cover just the two manifolds and pressure test all of the radiator pipework in one go. Only if there is a drop, then investigate further in that area.
Or another way for you, blank off the two main pipes connected to the manifolds and re-test the rest of the system.

sunnyday1234

K.Flyer wrote: »

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

I believe all i have to do to continue the work myself is to drain the water , reconnect up the pipes he was testing and move the sealers on to the third pipe(s) , refill and test again , does this sound right ?

That's a very long way to do it.
Before going to all of that trouble If it was me I would set up a test pump in a way to cover just the two manifolds and pressure test all of the radiator pipework in one go. Only if there is a drop, then investigate further in that area.
Or another way for you, blank off the two main pipes connected to the manifolds and re-test the rest of the system.

Thanks ,sounds a bit complicated for a non plumber :-)
I think he had that already, his first test was block off all the downstairs rads so only upstairs was working , this resulted in no pressure  drop so i believe this ruled out anything upstairs or in hot press or the boiler being the issue. 
Does that test sound like what you say to test the rest of the system ? 
I understand the simple way of blocking each rad like in the pictures and have no problem doing this work as i have loads of time so if i follow that method does it make sense to you ?

K.Flyer

Ok, that makes a bit more sense of what's going on if he has definitely narrowed it down to one of the pipes from the manifold.
In that case, and if you have the time, carry on moving from one to the other.

sunnyday1234

K.Flyer wrote: »

Ok, that makes a bit more sense of what's going on if he has definitely narrowed it down to one of the pipes from the manifold.
In that case, and if you have the time, carry on moving from one to the other.

yep thanks so much for the help. Do i need to drain it down before moving on ?