Catholic Ireland dead? **Mod Warning in Post #563**

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121906468#Comment_121906468

The witnesses back then can't all be wrong. Jesus did exist now whether or not he was just a religious man or the son of God is another story.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121906491#Comment_121906491

Who are these witnesses ?

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121906491#Comment_121906491

None of them wrote or mentioned him for a number of years after his "death" so at the very least the writings are heavily biased

SilvaMuppet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908051#Comment_121908051

On this point. Are there any contemporary witnesses to the existence of him? Our body of knowledge comes from the historians Josephus and Tacitus and then also the gospels (iirc). Josephus and Tacitus don't spend much time on him and kind of note details about him in passing (written about 60 to 100 years after the crucifixion) and the gospels were also written many decades after his death (about 50 or so?). So none of these authors were witnesses to events or even met the man.

I think its generally considered a historical fact that a guy by the name of Jesus (not a particularly uncommon name back then i believe) lived at that time. and his baptism and crucifixion by the Romans are also accepted as having happened. I think its the fact that separate independent sources agree on certain key details that allow historians to agree on the basics at least.

Big problem with the gospels is the bias noted above i think. They were been subject to editing and revisionism as the theology matured in the centuries after they were written so we'll likely never know the original pure content from the oral tradition (that could well have come from contemporary witnesses) that got passed onto the original author(s?).

Ash.J.Williams

Tacitus I would have thought was the only reference but I'm not sure of his time frame

Catholics have a habit of sexing up events years later to get bums on seats anyway

SilvaMuppet

Think Tacitus was later than Josephus and he was a bit more Rome focused (TBH, winging it here a bit). Josephus was Jewish and from the neck of the woods Jesus would have been knocking around in. But both are widely credited sources from my understanding.

But it does make you wonder, who were their sources? In Tacitus' case you'd think it has to be from more 'official' roman writings and reports from the era. Josephus could easily though have gotten his info from the same path as the original gospels? who knows!

With respect to the concept of "sexing up" events. Sure the whole Jesus origin story fits nicely in that category. I think they call it "Diabolical mimicry". But his origin story matches very closely (or rather picks various pieces of) older deities like Baal, Mithras, Osiris and Dionysus (and others). In essence a version those story(stories?) tailored for the local population. To combat what at the time would have been obvious to a lot of people (similarities with other religions) they pulled out the old, "ahhh, but the devil, to discredit the son of god, well in advance of his arrival, planted these other stories over the preceding millennia so that he'd muddy the waters and cause doubt". Classic devil move!

Shoog

Contextual analysis of both Tacticus and Josephus show inconsistencies In writing styles suggestive of later additions. They cannot be considered reliable sources for Jesus.

What have you got left if you remove them ?

Hotblack Desiato

With respect to the concept of "sexing up" events. Sure the whole Jesus origin story fits nicely in that category.

The whole "returning to Bethlehem for a census" thing was a complete falsehood, but added in to fulfil a prophesy.

Also, so what if some guy lived and was crucified - the Romans crucified a lot of people. And a relatively young, presumably healthy, man would be expected to last days not a few hours (Life of Brian hints at this, "Oh my brothers usually get me down after a couple of days")

SilvaMuppet

if you remove Tacitus and Josephus i don't think there is much to corroborate any of the gospel stuff. I wasn't aware their version of events was much in question though? Haven't looked at this in donkeys but they were always the more official go to guys in a period where we don't have much to work off?

@Hotblack Desiato , ahhh tip of the iceberg there. So much odd goings on to create the narrative or fulfill a prophesy. There were plenty of people called jesus at the time and crucifixions weren't uncommon. But even before you get to that climactic event the one that always puzzled me was the Barabbas bit. I mean, what efficient form of governance (and this was around peak Rome) lets dangerous criminals go just to celebrate a religious holiday (or placate the baying mob)?? And what crowd actively wants a (supposedly) known murder let loose rather than a preacher . If that event happened (big IF as there was no tradition of letting convicted people go on passover) then is there more to Barabbas and his own past? (that scene in life of Brian always cracked me up....nearly as much as the "Romanes Eunt Domus" bit :) )

Iscreamkone

I do not believe that Jesus is divine. The evidence just isn’t there. I don’t stand outside churches with placards saying “everyone who believes in gods is simple”, but that is what I’m thinking of believers.

Its all woo!

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909079#Comment_121909079

Each to their own. Bit ignorant on your behalf to accuse believers of being simple. If you don't believe in it that's your choice but don't start with offensive comments.

Iscreamkone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909686#Comment_121909686

I don’t agree. Anyone who believes in Leprechauns, Unicorns and fairies is also simple. It’s all woo!

If you find what I think is offensive then that’s on you.

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121881863#Comment_121881863

Will be handy for freeing up land in every town around the country to build apartments on. And thanks to the height of the steeple or spire on most churches it should be possible to build multi storey apartment blocks as the height precedent is already there.

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909731#Comment_121909731

You're a bit simple yourself if you don't respect other people's beliefs. Is it any skin of your back.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908790#Comment_121908790

The Christian account would suggest Rome itself was under threat from a preacher hence his arrest and execution, if this were factual we might have more official writings

Iscreamkone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909764#Comment_121909764

Woo isn’t worthy of respect.

When my children have to go to schools where woo is taught as fact by teachers who don’t believe in it - this is annoying.

We’re lucky that 30% of the school don’t partake in the woo. Hopefully this will increase over the next few years as people get more sense.

csirl

This thread is starting to go off topic. Whether or not the catholic church is dead does not depend on whether or not people believe that jesus existed in history etc.

Iscreamkone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909886#Comment_121909886

The age of the clergy and mass going public means that the show will be over very soon.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908982#Comment_121908982

Welease Woger! He's a wobber and a wapist!

Funniest bit is the soldiers trying not to crack up on "Do you find it wisible, that I have a fwiend in Wome called Biggus Dickus?" "His wife? Incontintia. Incontinentia Buttocks"

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909755#Comment_121909755

RCC is sitting on an absolute goldmine in relation to underused / unused property, they've already made hundreds of millions in south county Dublin with land sales (tax free!), yet still owe taxpayers a fortune in unpaid abuse redress, even given the sweet sweet terms of Michael Woods' paedophile bailout.

Ugh I really despise that man, worst government minister in my lifetime by a landslide. How what he did was legal remains a mystery. But Opus Dei were pleased.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909764#Comment_121909764

Nobody is obliged to respect stupidity, even if it is religious in nature.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909861#Comment_121909861

Yes of course, which leads to the conclusion that the whole thing is retconned fanfic.

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121910370#Comment_121910370

A strong government would somehow work out a scheme to effectively CPO huge banks of land from the RCC as compensation for the redress scheme.

Also why aren't churches being used to house refugees, it would be the christian thing to do.

endacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909764#Comment_121909764

What if their beliefs were that all redheads should be drowned at birth?

it’s the right to a belief that should be respected, not the belief (in magic skydaddy) itself.

Hotblack Desiato

Yet again, Life of Brian was way ahead of you:

"It's not anyone's fault he can't have a baby - not even the Romans. But we can respect his right to have a baby"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c

Fr Tod Umptious

Attacking the Catholic Church.

Possibly the lowest of low hanging fruit on the boards.ie tree.

In relation to the referendum results and the Catholic Church, I'm not a practicing Catholic and I voted no,no.

It had nothing to do with religious conviction.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121910445#Comment_121910445

"I'm not religious, but..."

The RCC doesn't get a fraction of the criticism it deserves. All of the bishops who participated in the abuse cover-up should be in prison, but not one of them will ever be held accountable.

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121910479#Comment_121910479

But this thread has resorted into Muppets lambasting people who are believers. If faith gives them comfort what harm is it?

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121910520#Comment_121910520

They may not see the harm but it doesn't mean it is not doing them harm. Religion is all about controlling an individuals thought and behaviours which is a form of abuse.

If there were a basis in fact then this control might have some justification but no one should be manipulated into obedience.