Indian Caste system horrors

jmayo

Grayson wrote: »

I mention india here all the time. mainly when people have a go at muslims. The islamaphobic crowd never ask to ban hindu's. The right wing hindu's are horrible. They're also anti islam so that might be why the right wingers here tend not to include them when they call for a ban on muslims. Sexual harassment and sexual assault is on the rise.

Ehh the hindus that have moved to Europe and elsewhere haven't thankfully brought the same level of barbarity that your other demographic have.

Now saying that I find fundamentalist or right wing hindus living in India can be equally as backward, misogynistic and discriminatory as nearly the worst of the islamic world.
Hell my first experience of listening to the horrors of hinduism was listening to Pakistanis relate the experiences of their parents who had to flee India in 1947/1948.

One guy joked that his father would get a free lunch in school by casting a shadow on upper cast hindus whilst they ate their lunches.
They then claimed their lunch was tainted by an untouchable and would discard them.

steddyeddy

Del2005 wrote: »

Do you think that the upper caste people aren't educated? They are and still treat people like they did for generations.

I think they're exceptionally well educated. As are some southern Baptists, Jehovah witnesses, anti-vaccine proponents like Andrew Wakefield (went to Eton) and as are many religious and cultural fundamentalists.

In all cases education around a particular topic is what's needed. All of the above and those who consider the caste system valid are considerably educated but cultural or religious beliefs border on the mentally ill. They need to be told this is a ridiculous way of thinking and the only ones who are lower caste are the ones who actually carry on with this BS.

jmayo

Del2005 wrote: »

Do you think that the upper caste people aren't educated? They are and still treat people like they did for generations.

This has actually been an issue in recent times where upper caste hindus don't want lower castes to get high tech jobs or benefit from the growing technology industry sector in India.
And this is amongst young people not old fogies.

It is instilled discrimination as bad as the worst of what went on in the US.

Jimmy Garlic

The British loved India.They admired and encouraged the maintenance of the caste system in India. All they had to do to keep control was keep the local big wigs sweet and they would accept and facilitate British administration.

Grayson

jmayo wrote: »

Ehh the hindus that have moved to Europe and elsewhere haven't thankfully brought the same level of barbarity that your other demographic have.

Now saying that I find fundamentalist or right wing hindus living in India can be equally as backward, misogynistic and discriminatory as nearly the worst of the islamic world.
Hell my first experience of listening to the horrors of hinduism was listening to Pakistanis relate the experiences of their parents who had to flee India in 1947/1948.

One guy joked that his father would get a free lunch in school by casting a shadow on upper cast hindus whilst they ate their lunches.
They then claimed their lunch was tainted by an untouchable and would discard them.

Neither do muslims. It's different standards that are applied to each by the right wingers here.

I could trawl through newspapers and come up with plenty of horrific crimes that have been committed by hindu's in the UK. Acid attacks, burning women alive, honor killings etc. However they are not representative of the whole. Just as crimes committed by muslims aren't.

having said all that, I agree with your thoughts on the caste system and India in general. It's a country of a billion people with a huge range of beliefs and peoples. However there's definitely a nasty element there.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Del2005 wrote: »

Do you think that the upper caste people aren't educated? They are and still treat people like they did for generations.

People are very fond of throwing around the word "education", rather than pointing out the obvious.

DEFTLEFTHAND

CrabRevolution wrote: »

A local school regularly sends TY students to Kolkata to "help" the impoverished locals, because there's 1'300'000'000 Indians in the country but they require 10 teenagers from Meath to travel across the world to "help" them. They must have some vital skills I just can't appreciate.

Of course this involves expensive fundraising, bucket collections/table quizzes etc. I generally decline to donate, reasoning that if a country can afford aircraft carriers, nuclear weapons and a space programme, they don't need my money.

Went to a table quiz once for a snooty little madam going to Calcutta.

She gave a horrible self agrandising speech at the end of the evening and insulted half the bar.


I felt like taking my 20 quid back and telling 'Mother Teresa II to fund her own vanity project.

4068ac1elhodqr

Grayson wrote: »

I could trawl through newspapers and come up with plenty of horrific crimes that have been committed by hindu's in the UK. Acid attacks, burning women alive, honor killings etc.

However they are not representative of the whole. Just as crimes committed by muslims aren't

Either your incorrect, or Hindus are experts at aversion of crime detection.

If you look at 'representation' you will find the (close to 1m) Hindus barely register in prisons. whereas the <3m Muslim population (2016 stats E&W) have about 300% over-representation of the general population and 'double-digit' x more than the Hindus.



Naturally with a populaiton of 1.3bn (India soon to overtake the Chinese) there are going to be some frightful stories there.

Grayson

Kevin Large Stockiness wrote: »

Either your incorrect, or Hindus are experts at aversion of crime detection.

If you look at 'representation' you will find the (close to 1m) Hindus barely register in prisons. whereas the <3m Muslim population (2016 stats E&W) have about 300% over-representation of the general population and 'double-digit' x more than the Hindus.



Naturally with a populaiton of 1.3bn (India soon to overtake the Chinese) there are going to be some frightful stories there.

care to provide a link and the context?

Honor crimes etc are committed by Hindus in the UK. You can google examples. And when it comes to the percentages who find violence acceptable, you might be surprised.


http://www.brin.ac.uk/honour-crimes/

Backing for the extremer manifestations of ‘izzat’ was small. Thus, only 6% of all young Asians believed that, in certain circumstances, it could be right to punish physically a female member of the family if she brought dishonour to it or the community. No Sikhs agreed with this, but 9% of Hindus, 8% of Christians, and 6% of Muslims did so.

Notwithstanding, three times this number (i.e. 18%) in the entire sample selected one or more of five ‘reasonable justifications’ for physical punishment of female members of the family. The figure was highest among Asian Christians (23%), followed by Muslims (20%), Sikhs (14%), and Hindus (13%).

The relative weight attached to each of the five justifications varied somewhat, but generally disobeying paternal wishes was the top concern for Asian Christians (10%), going out in the evening unaccompanied most perturbed Muslims (9%), and wanting to terminate an existing or prearranged marriage preoccupied Sikhs (9%).

The ultimate punishment of ‘honour killing’ was sanctioned by 3% of young Asians, including the same number of Muslims and Hindus, but rising to 4% of Sikhs and Christians. Support for ‘honour killings’ has thankfully fallen since 2006 when, in a similar survey of young Asians aged 16-34, 8% overall justified such killings, peaking at 14% among Hindus and Christians.

‘Izzat’, therefore, does not appear to be the preserve of any particular faith but seems to reflect the wider cultural inheritance of many young British Asians. Presumably, the same is likely to be true of older Asians, among whom the concept may be stronger, and perhaps endorsement of ‘honour killings’ slightly higher.

4068ac1elhodqr

Grayson wrote: »

care to provide a link and the context?

Honor crimes etc are committed by Hindus in the UK. You can google examples.

You can googlebot till the cows come home, you can find anything from aliens dancing on Mars to Atlantis just off the coast of Galway.

I've supplied screenshot of PDF data directly from (.gov) Prison population of Eng & Wales for 2016 (google away).

...Which shows a few hundred Hindus (from nearly 1m) barely registering at 0.0%, and 12,000 or so Muslins (from 3m or so) having a 300% over-representation compared to the general populaiton.

I would consider 'Honor' crimes directly with one group, and not so much with the Buddists, Hindus etc of the world. Not to say it doesn't happen, just not as much.

Grayson

Kevin Large Stockiness wrote: »

You can googlebot till the cows come home, you can find anything from aliens dancing on Mars to Atlantis just off the coast of Galway.

I've supplied screenshot of PDF data directly from (.gov) Prison population of Eng & Wales for 2016 (google away).

...Which shows a few hundred Hindus (from nearly 1m) barely registering at 0.0%, and 12,000 or so Muslins (from 3m or so) having a 300% over-representation compared to the general populaiton.

I would consider 'Honor' crimes directly with one group, and not so much with the Buddists, Hindus etc of the world. Not to say it doesn't happen, just not as much.

You can consider whatever you want, it doesn't prove anything. The fact is that honor crimes occur amongst every demographic in india. It's not a religious thing but a cultural thing. And the same is true in the UK although support for them is less in the UK.
And you haven't shown a single piece of evidence to demonstrate that other religions from the sub continent don't commit honor crimes and you also haven't provided a link to your original stats so i can't even examine those.

steddyeddy

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

People are very fond of throwing around the word "education", rather than pointing out the obvious.

Well it's true. It is a matter of education. One caste is no different from the other. It's an arbitrary distinction which was enforced by the British empire. The more people know about something the less power they give it.

Such an approach is currently working in Rwanda. The genocide that occurred there was between the Hutus and the Tutsi peoples. Previously the Hutus, a "lower" caste than the Tutsi could become Tutsi. When the Belgian colonisers had control they made the system a lot less flexible and handed out identity cards which assigned people to particular groups. The Tutsi were placed in administrative positions above the Hutus and the indetity cards prevented any movement between the groups. You were stuck in you caste of birth. This is the equivalent of telling half the class of school children that those with blue eyes were superior and eventually genocide occurred.

Today the Rwandan people are educated that such distinctions are BS and not grounds to discriminate. Education is key.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well it's true. It is a matter of education. One caste is no different from the other. It's an arbitrary distinction which was enforced by the British empire. The more people know about something the less power they give it.

Such an approach is currently working in Rwanda. The genocide that occurred there was between the Hutus and the Tutsi peoples. Previously the Hutus, a "lower" caste than the Tutsi could become Tutsi. When the Belgian colonisers had control they made the system a lot less flexible and handed out identity cards which assigned people to particular groups. The Tutsi were placed in administrative positions above the Hutus and the indetity cards prevented any movement between the groups. You were stuck in you caste of birth. This is the equivalent of telling half the class of school children that those with blue eyes were superior and eventually genocide occurred.

Today the Rwandan people are educated that such distinctions are BS and not grounds to discriminate. Education is key.


Two tribes with

The upper castes are acting in self interest. They want to hang on to every possible privilege for themselves.

Ray Palmer

I work and have worked with a fair number of Indians. Like all people some good some bad. What surprised me one day was while going to a meeting with one Indian women we bumped into a Indian guy on the other project. Always got on with him but this time the hello was very odd and only directed at me.

A few days later I noticed the guy not holding the door for the women as she was behind him. Lots of little petty things but nothing outright offensive. Did know the women well at the time.

Latter on I asked her did she know him and did they have some argument. Turned out it was because he was a higher caste and thought little of her simple existence. Another Indian guy joined and he was outwardly aggressive towards her. To the extent he was politely asked to leave or be fired.

Very strange.

Sonny noggs

Pkiernan wrote: »

Left silent as usual, but this is utterly despicable.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-48265387

The likes of Steady Eddie will post about British class system etc but never a mention of this...

steddyeddy

Well you spelled my username wrong but I assume you mean me. I posted the following on this topic:

I always think education is the cure to things like this.
To me a class system has no basis in reality anyway. The Indian system just takes it to psychotic levels.

I think it's the most disgusting system of class and apartheid on the planet. Clear enough?

FTA69

Pkiernan wrote: »

Left silent as usual, but this is utterly despicable.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-48265387

What has this got to do with the left? The Communist Party of India has done fantastic work in organising people around this nonsense. The ones pushing Hindu orthodoxy in India are the right nationalists.

Bobblehats

Larbre34 wrote: »

India has what you could only call a veneer of democracy, local rule in all its medieval ways is what affects people's daily lives. Like so many other countries it is too big to be a nation, it should be maybe 10 countries, I mean the people of the Punjab have about as much in common with Tamil Nadu as we have with Cyprus or Bulgaria - some common ground but such that would be more suitable to a Commonwealth or Common Trade area.

The rolling green hills I came down from they practice strong christian beliefs and are more oriental looking. The family built a girls hostel within the compound, an honourable bunch pillar of society types a real purity in the air and the people and civilisation personified. Since they departed their headhunting ways; just don’t call them indian.

Your Face

I could murder an Indian right now

fryup

just watched a programme on bbc 4 about classical indian music...strange that such a country with such a rich exotic culture can be so depraved at the same time

screamer

fryup wrote: »

just watched a programme on bbc 4 about classical indian music...strange that such a country with such a rich exotic culture can be so depraved at the same time

Too many people, life is cheap

the dark phantom

Its a sad situation as they should be doing much better as a people, iv never meet an Indian or Pakistani that wasn't intelligent, the post saying life is cheap there sums it up.

Gimme A Pound

Pkiernan wrote: »

Left silent as usual, but this is utterly despicable.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-48265387

Not seeing outcry from the right either, but I'm more concerned about the actual matter itself. Are you gonna come back to the thread you started?

jmayo

Grayson wrote: »

Neither do muslims. It's different standards that are applied to each by the right wingers here.

I could trawl through newspapers and come up with plenty of horrific crimes that have been committed by hindu's in the UK. Acid attacks, burning women alive, honor killings etc. However they are not representative of the whole. Just as crimes committed by muslims aren't.

having said all that, I agree with your thoughts on the caste system and India in general. It's a country of a billion people with a huge range of beliefs and peoples. However there's definitely a nasty element there.

I am not going to argue about the honour killings, that seems to be a fact of life from that region and practiced across religions.
Also the sale of young girls into slavery is another sad thing from parts of India.

But my point was, and you damn well know it, that hindus aren't leaving a trail of destruction a mile long (Nice actually comes to mind straight away) and slaughtering innocent people from different religions, just because they are a different religion.

Neither have we had them preying on young girls in organised gangs.

Or at least as Accumulator so eloquently put they must be very good at avoiding detection if they do all these things.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I work and have worked with a fair number of Indians. Like all people some good some bad. What surprised me one day was while going to a meeting with one Indian women we bumped into a Indian guy on the other project. Always got on with him but this time the hello was very odd and only directed at me.

A few days later I noticed the guy not holding the door for the women as she was behind him. Lots of little petty things but nothing outright offensive. Did know the women well at the time.

Latter on I asked her did she know him and did they have some argument. Turned out it was because he was a higher caste and thought little of her simple existence. Another Indian guy joined and he was outwardly aggressive towards her. To the extent he was politely asked to leave or be fired.

Very strange.

Similar experience where Indian/Irish friend in college actually seemed to avoid an Indian student even though they worked in offices/labs right next to each other. Everyone else talked to the guy.

One day one of my Pakistani friends just said Brahmin and how someone from that caste would look down his nose at the other guy.

Actually it was interesting to listen to the Pakistani guys descriptions of Indians and indeed their former fellow citizens the Bangladeshis.
No love lost there.

YFlyer

The Veda Caste system began to deteriorate with foreign rule.

El_Duderino 09

Pkiernan wrote: »

Left silent as usual, but this is utterly despicable.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-48265387

If you feel passionately about it, you could do something about it. Why would you rely on the left to do it for you? Maybe you have great faith in 'the left' to solve all the world's problems but I don't think that's a great strategy.

ohnonotgmail

YFlyer wrote: »

The Veda Caste system began to deteriorate with foreign rule.

Really? I thought the british strengthened the caste system when they incorporated it into their administration under the Raj.

YFlyer

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Really? I thought the british strengthened the caste system when they incorporated it into their administration under the Raj.

They kept the varna system in and diluted it from the inside by incorporating their own western values.

steddyeddy

YFlyer wrote: »

They kept the varna system in and diluted it from the inside by incorporating their own western values.

Looks like it worked alright.....

Emme

It's horrific they way those people are treated. Not allowed to wear certain clothes, ride horses etc.

There was a link to this article at the side of the page, it is equally horrific. It is about how badly Africans were treated in Nazi Germany.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-48273570