Heifer Calving at 40 months

farmer2018

Whats peoples thoughts on a heifer calving at 40 months old. Could it cause calving issues or fertility when trying to get back in calf?

Lady Haywire

40 month? So 3 1/2 years? She wouldn't last that long on this farm anyway!
I've found in later years that any heifers we left to get a bit agey/grow up a bit before calving down appear to be less fertile than those calved down at 24/25 months. Now I'm only basing this on a few heifers but perhaps others have had the same.

Brexitcircus

Lady Haywire wrote: »

40 month? So 3 1/2 years? She wouldn't last that long on this farm anyway!
I've found in later years that any heifers we left to get a bit agey/grow up a bit before calving down appear to be less fertile than those calved down at 24/25 months. Now I'm only basing this on a few heifers but perhaps others have had the same.

Ya 3.5 years. Very late to be calving. In too good of condition that's what I am afraid about.

Lady Haywire

Brexitcircus wrote: »

Ya 3.5 years. Very late to be calving. In too good of condition that's what I am afraid about.

That can be managed easy enough if she's inside or on bare paddock. Just wonder why she was left so long, was she cycling or aborted a calf or what. It wouldn't exactly scream fertile cow at me.

Brexitcircus

Lady Haywire wrote: »

That can be managed easy enough if she's inside or on bare paddock. Just wonder why she was left so long, was she cycling or aborted a calf or what. It wouldn't exactly scream fertile cow at me.

Supposedly was just missed. Ya I am hesitant about buying her.

Lady Haywire

farmer2018 wrote: »

Whats peoples thoughts on a heifer calving at 40 months old. Could it cause calving issues or fertility when trying to get back in calf?

Brexitcircus wrote: »

Supposedly was just missed. Ya I am hesitant about buying her.

Identity crisis? :pac:

About 20yrs ago we bought a 2.5yr old heifer who'd never had a calf. Now the owner had been battling cancer and then passed away so there was a legit reason why she was missed. If I really liked an animal, i'd not hesitate to buy it but I'd also want a valid excuse for her age.
At the end of the day you'll be the one paying for her & looking at her in the field. If you think she's worth it, go for it, but bear in mind it could be an expensive mistake if she's not very fertile. If she's expensive & a pedigree you could get her handled by a vet or scanner fella to check for cysts etc on the ovaries either.

L1985

Giving my issues in stopping a heifer going in calf id be very hesitant. She would have been cycling every month for three years and there was surely some male somewhere near her at that point?

Who2

I know plenty of lads who don’t calve down until then. I was calving all at 24 months and I’ve gone away from it. I’ll have a few that will be over 3 calving next spring, it’s just the way they fell between when they were born and when they’ll calve. It’s better have an animal too big rather than too small, fertility or not you’ll end up with a decent frame of an animal. We can fool ourselves into thinking we’re making more money and being progressive, and might we might even get a pat on the back from Teagasc, but the reality is we’re probably better off keep what we like and not as many of them whether that means leaving them on a few extra months before calving them.

stretch film

Interesting figures on some teargas publication lately.
Costing 1500 to get (albeit a dairy) heifer to calving at 2. It cost another 1500 by year 3 through extra costs and mostly down to loss of production individually and over all farm.

squinn2912

I think 24 months is too severe for a heifer unless maybe dairy and she can calve a pup. We would have jan born heifers calving March/April. Later ones if they’re good enough go into the autumn calvers and it lets them mature a bit more. Find it easier to get them in calf next time. We wouldn’t wait as long as 40 months but if you know the background of this heifers d are happy then work away

patsy_mccabe

Calved 2 heifers I bought in this year, at 30 months. Both AI'd to average calving Lim bulls. Great comfort coming up to calving that they should calf away no bother, which they did. I'd still go with 24months, if the heifer is right and I can pick an easy calving AI bull.
Sorry but 40 months is madness. Neighbour here has a heifer calved twice before 24 months. First was a caesarain but still. The other end of the spectrum.

farmer2018

I think it depends on the size of the heifer really but I think calving at 27-30 months is a good time.

Anything over 35 months is very late.

Do people find calving heifers later increases or decreases their breeding lifespan?

Who2

Who2 wrote: »

I know plenty of lads who don’t calve down until then. I was calving all at 24 months and I’ve gone away from it. I’ll have a few that will be over 3 calving next spring, it’s just the way they fell between when they were born and when they’ll calve. It’s better have an animal too big rather than too small, fertility or not you’ll end up with a decent frame of an animal. We can fool ourselves into thinking we’re making more money and being progressive, and might we might even get a pat on the back from Teagasc, but the reality is we’re probably better off keep what we like and not as many of them whether that means leaving them on a few extra months before calving them.

Same for us, we tried it for a few years and wasn’t successful found they just weren’t fit for calving so young bar an odd one.

Normally calve at around the 36 months or so.

farmer2018

William Ugly Stingray wrote: »

Same for us, we tried it for a few years and wasn’t successful found they just weren’t fit for calving so young bar an odd one.

Normally calve at around the 36 months or so.

Do you ever encounter any problems?

One cow I bought at a dispersal sale a number of years ago she has a big udder of milk and has no problem going incalf. She had her first calf at 46 months old going by the ICBF report :eek:

carrollsno1

Re calving heifers at two years. Why dont lads just use a real easy calving strain on the heifers? The farm i was on last year had about 200 Angus heifers calving down to Angus again and they weren't much bigger if not smaller than calves i had seen on dairy farms there was very little assistance with them we drove the ute around once a day caught the calf and tagged them only a handful had to be handled and mature cows never needed handling. I reckon if you could get the strain of Angus from this part and send it back yed do well, these cattle would thrive off straw as theyve little options most years.

Welding Rod

I’ve calved a few heifers every year for the past six or seven years, aged between 24 and 26 months.
Can honestly say, never yet had a problem calving. Bit slower to get back in calf though.
I wouldn’t ever go back to calving at 36 months which was always my policy. It’s waste I reckon.

squinn2912

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Calved 2 heifers I bought in this year, at 30 months. Both AI'd to average calving Lim bulls. Great comfort coming up to calving that they should calf away no bother, which they did. I'd still go with 24months, if the heifer is right and I can pick an easy calving AI bull.
Sorry but 40 months is madness. Neighbour here has a heifer calved twice before 24 months. First was a caesarain but still. The other end of the spectrum.

Jesus was that deliberate?? What age was she calving first time? Must have been just over a year. That’s unethical

squinn2912

I think allowing a heifer to go to 36 months is costing you beef or dairy. Even if the first calf is just a wee Angus or whatever you’re better with it. Then the second calf round that time and you’re right. I think you need to have your mind on the second or subsequent calves when deciding to bull the first time. I like to allow a wee bit of room so I think under 30 months round 27 is sweet spot

patsy_mccabe

squinn2912 wrote: »

Jesus was that deliberate?? What age was she calving first time? Must have been just over a year. That’s unethical

God no. Teenage pregnancy. Farmer is in his late 80's so hard to be judgemental in a case like that.

squinn2912

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

God no. Teenage pregnancy. Farmer is in his late 80's so hard to be judgemental in a case like that.

Oh I see apologies. That can happen anyone I thought for a sec someone tried to do it

L1985

I think it really depends on the animal but I’d do very easy calving AI AA first time around but I go more by the weight and size of the heifer tbh then by calendar. Also ease with myself I try get then calving a little separate to the rest If I can so they get a closer eye kept on them. But I think 36months is too late and costs too much.

Who2

I’m making nothing substantial with sucklers and even if I was to keep 10 more and calve them down at twenty four months I’d say I’d be at even less. I enjoy trying to breed good stock and to use the bulls I want to use and to have the fields of animals I like it means giving them extra time. I’ve heaps of small cows here that I have to watch what I put on them. It’s crazy pushing for more numbers of average calves from a system that’s broken. I’ve dropped from fifty cows back to forty here and now going with giving the heifers extra time and going in with stronger bulls and I honestly reckon I’m far better off. Selling weanlings for 7-800 when it costs the bones of it to get them there is a pure waste, if some lad is willing to pay 11-1200 for a bit better of a calf, then I’ll go for that. You won’t get it for a saler or limo on a consistent basis and definitely won’t get it for an angus. Calving at 24 months means using an easy calving bull the second time around too and I never made anything doing it.

squinn2912

Who2 wrote: »

I’m making nothing substantial with sucklers and even if I was to keep 10 more and calve them down at twenty four months I’d say I’d be at even less. I enjoy trying to breed good stock and to use the bulls I want to use and to have the fields of animals I like it means giving them extra time. I’ve heaps of small cows here that I have to watch what I put on them. It’s crazy pushing for more numbers of average calves from a system that’s broken. I’ve dropped from fifty cows back to forty here and now going with giving the heifers extra time and going in with stronger bulls and I honestly reckon I’m far better off. Selling weanlings for 7-800 when it costs the bones of it to get them there is a pure waste, if some lad is willing to pay 11-1200 for a bit better of a calf, then I’ll go for that. You won’t get it for a saler or limo on a consistent basis and definitely won’t get it for an angus. Calving at 24 months means using an easy calving bull the second time around too and I never made anything doing it.

I totally agree with you. Ordinary cattle will get a bad touch any time the market falls. There’s people and they’ll tell you they’re doing better with that small calf at 24 months. My father talks about my grandfather saying a heifer needs to be 27 months and it’s as true today imo

squinn2912

Just when we’re on it lads what bull do you serve to maiden heifers? I had earmarked a bb Cogent Bull hitman but I got a second opinion on him and am a bit put off now. I want to divert away from lim as I’d use the stock bull in that case

High bike

I’m calving heifers at 24 to 25 mts to Aubrac or Sailer and no issues

Hard Knocks

High bike wrote: »

I’m calving heifers at 24 to 25 mts to Aubrac or Sailer and no issues

Are you having any problems selling the progeny?

Have a 13 month heifer Bulling today tempted with Saler in 3 weeks time

tanko

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Are you having any problems selling the progeny?

Have a 13 month heifer Bulling today tempted with Saler in 3 weeks time

Ive been putting Saler bulls on the heifers here for a few years now, mainly for thier ease of calving.
Have kept a few of the heifer calves for breeding.
You will take a hit when selling the bulls/bullocks compared to Lims but thats just the way it is.

squinn2912

tanko wrote: »

Ive been putting Saler bulls on the heifers here for a few years now, mainly for thier ease of calving.
Have kept a few of the heifer calves for breeding.
You will take a hit when selling the bulls/bullocks compared to Lims but thats just the way it is.

I think it’s hard to get an ai bull for heifers that’s high quality and easy enough calved

tanko

squinn2912 wrote: »

I think it’s hard to get an ai bull for heifers that’s high quality and easy enough calved

Yeah, its a compromise.
No point destroying a nice heifer with a hard calving bull and risk losing the calf.
It all depends what level of calving difficulty you're comfortable with and how good you are at managing body condition leading up to calving. I'd be more cautious than most, dont want any hassle calving heifers. Cant be bothered with that crap.
LM2014 might be the bull you're looking for.

squinn2912

tanko wrote: »

Yeah, its a compromise.
No point destroying a nice heifer with a hard calving bull and risk losing the calf.
It all depends what level of calving difficulty you're comfortable with and how good you are at managing body condition leading up to calving. I'd be more cautious than most, dont want any hassle calving heifers. Cant be bothered with that crap.
LM2014 might be the bull you're looking for.

Thanks. That’s what I think. Putting heifers through hard calving doesn’t work out long term. Awful strain on yourself too and even if you get a live calf he can take ages to get going. Even on cows I prefer something inbetween

patsy_mccabe

tanko wrote: »

Ive been putting Saler bulls on the heifers here for a few years now, mainly for thier ease of calving.
Have kept a few of the heifer calves for breeding.
You will take a hit when selling the bulls/bullocks compared to Lims but thats just the way it is.

Are you taking a hit though? Compared to what, having the heifer around the place for a year producing no calf and costing the same to keep.
Or compared to putting a harder calving bull on her and destroying her.
Great comfort in having heifers getting ready to calf knowing they are in calf to a very easy calving bull.

squinn2912

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Are you taking a hit though? Compared to what, having the heifer around the place for a year producing no calf and costing the same to keep.
Or compared to putting a harder calving bull on her and destroying her.
Great comfort in having heifers getting ready to calf knowing they are in calf to a very easy calving bull.

What do you put into the heifers? I got my heifers handled yesterday. I injected them and could find none of them bulling. Of 10 2 are bulled, 3 are ok and got another injection and the other 5 are going to need the prid. I'll try to see about getting that done tonight or in the morning. Try them one more time for AI and if I can't catch them out they go with the bull. This is the first year of calves from him. He's a Tanko bull. Of 9 heifers I can think of off the top of my head 3 calved unassisted, 5 were a fair pull with the jack (early girls in january admittedly could've done with minerals for another fortnight) and 1 was a monster of a calf that died after a c section. I'd be content enough with him again but I was hoping to get AI into them.

High bike

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Are you having any problems selling the progeny?

Have a 13 month heifer Bulling today tempted with Saler in 3 weeks time

depends on colour , the reds no problem the blacks a bit slower.Had 4 this year to the Aubrac and never put a hand on the calving but they would have been 16 Mts getting billed I'd think 13 mts is a bit young unless she's very well grown

tanko

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Are you taking a hit though? Compared to what, having the heifer around the place for a year producing no calf and costing the same to keep.
Or compared to putting a harder calving bull on her and destroying her.
Great comfort in having heifers getting ready to calf knowing they are in calf to a very easy calving bull.

I just mean getting a bit less at sale time but overall i agree with you.

patsy_mccabe

squinn2912 wrote: »

What do you put into the heifers? I got my heifers handled yesterday. I injected them and could find none of them bulling. Of 10 2 are bulled, 3 are ok and got another injection and the other 5 are going to need the prid. I'll try to see about getting that done tonight or in the morning. Try them one more time for AI and if I can't catch them out they go with the bull. This is the first year of calves from him. He's a Tanko bull. Of 9 heifers I can think of off the top of my head 3 calved unassisted, 5 were a fair pull with the jack (early girls in january admittedly could've done with minerals for another fortnight) and 1 was a monster of a calf that died after a c section. I'd be content enough with him again but I was hoping to get AI into them.

You'd want a teaser bull with chin ball marker to pick up all the heats. I've done this in the past and a great job.
Having really calved heifers in a while as I've bought in pedigrees heifers instead. They tend to calf at 30 months as I buy them at 18 months or so. In the past used well proven easy calving Lim bulls or saler bulls on teh smaller types.

squinn2912

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

You'd want a teaser bull with chin ball marker to pick up all the heats. I've done this in the past and a great job.
Having really calved heifers in a while as I've bought in pedigrees heifers instead. They tend to calf at 30 months as I buy them at 18 months or so. In the past used well proven easy calving Lim bulls or saler bulls on teh smaller types.

That's it. Very hard. I was gong to throw a weanling with them but it turned into a melee so I didn't bother. I thought they'd show. Scanning man thought they were a bit underdeveloped but that shouldn't be the case due to age/weight. I don't fully understand the ins and outs but he reckons the prid will bring them round and then I'll chance for ai then out to bull. If I AI it won't be lim because I want to see if it works or if it's our own bull. Not trying Saler I had one of them natters about the place and it's enough. I was very encouraged when I got a BB recommendation but I'm well put off now. Likely be hereford, angus for the dairyish ones and might try a shorthorn on the red ones.

Simmental.

If you were willing to try a BB bull would your try a CH bull like Bivouac or a SI bull like Lisnacrann Fifty Cent?

squinn2912

Simmental. wrote: »

If you were willing to try a BB bull would your try a CH bull like Bivouac or a SI bull like Lisnacrann Fifty Cent?

Funny Fifty Cent was mentioned. I had ruled out the sim because I imagined they would be too big-framed to put on those dairy types - they're not too wide at the back. Have you tried him before?

Simmental.

I have only used him on 3 Simmental heifers calving at 24 months. They all calved themselves and the calves weighed 35,42 and 45kg

squinn2912

Simmental. wrote: »

I have only used him on 3 Simmental heifers calving at 24 months. They all calved themselves and the calves weighed 35,42 and 45kg

Come to think of it I have 2 bulls from fifty cent. They’ll be away in the next 3 weeks. One from a heifer and one a big cow. Great growers, very docile and we’re both easy calved

Shape not the best but for heifers I suppose I’ll have to take that

bogman_bass

Which is going to calve easier: a 3 year old second calved or a 3 year old heifer?
Even if you put a jersey on her first time you’d be better off calving at 2 years old.

You might be able to use a stronger bill for her first calving if you leave her but she’s going to have a better calf at 3 years old if it’s her second calf.

Hard Knocks

bogman_bass wrote: »

Which is going to calve easier: a 3 year old second calved or a 3 year old heifer?
Even if you put a jersey on her first time you’d be better off calving at 2 years old.

You might be able to use a stronger bill for her first calving if you leave her but she’s going to have a better calf at 3 years old if it’s her second calf.

The only problem I see with calving at 2yo is the heifer is still going with her first calf at foot, the calf is restricted

Never wrestle with pigs

Always plan to have the second calf on the ground before their third birthday here with the commercials. Never an issue and by the time they are 5 they are as big as ones let calve later. They seem more fertile too. They are not all built for it though. If you pick your best every year that are fit for it the majority of them will be fit to do it in a few years time coming from these lines.

The pedigrees calve at 26/30 months usually. I've two at 24 months next spring. Not because they are not big enough but because like any pedigree animal be it a dog or cow they just mature slower from being highly breed. I am going to be keeping an eye on fertility scores of bulls a bit more in future but it won't be a deal breaker either.

bogman_bass

Hard Knocks wrote: »

bogman_bass wrote: »

Which is going to calve easier: a 3 year old second calved or a 3 year old heifer?
Even if you put a jersey on her first time you’d be better off calving at 2 years old.

You might be able to use a stronger bill for her first calving if you leave her but she’s going to have a better calf at 3 years old if it’s her second calf.

The only problem I see with calving at 2yo is the heifer is still going with her first calf at foot, the calf is restricted

Sure what about it? A good calf and a poor calf is worth more than just a good calf on his own

Who2

bogman_bass wrote: »

Sure what about it? A good calf and a poor calf is worth more than just a good calf on his own[/QUOTE
It’s not that simple, you’ve a light heifer that will cost a fair chunk more to keep after calving as they do need minding, especially if they are calving early. I find one in every five don’t go back in calf and when you get that one she’s worth damn all to kill. Even on their second calf they aren’t where they should be in size. Take into the fact there’s realistically no profit to be made on heifers calves and you’ve a cull worth maybe 1k.
Calving an older heifer will give you a bit of power, size the option of putting a decent bull on them and will cost less than the cull difference to keep for the extra year. Now we’re all at nothing is the truth of it whether the heifers 24 or 36 months so we should all just do as we please.