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Cork Southern Distributor Road [route selection]

  • 17-05-2019 9:49pm
    #1
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Another project announced through the CMATS public consultation document release this week.

    480564.JPG

    The final alignment for this will be interesting as it involves the upgrade of existing roads along most of its route. Space is quite tight along here too.

    It is presumed that this route will result in the closure of junctions on the N40 as this will become the alternative for local traffic. The political ramifications of this will be interesting to say the least

    It would also be nice (personally speaking), if a new link to the airport was provided from this new road west of the N27


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,783 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    For the ages and for this thread in 20 odd years time I randomly predict 2031 for the southern distributor opening. Lets see how far off the mark I am in reality!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭Flesh Gorden


    To me it looks like a fancy name for a number of existing roads starting with:

    R610 down to the Fingerpost roundabout.
    R609 Carrigaline Road
    New section across the R609 to the existing Grange Road
    N27 junction at Bull McCabes
    New section behind Ford, around the new estates in Togher
    Ending by the funeral home in Wilton
    R849 down to the Wilton Roundabout.

    It's the same with the northern one

    R635 up through Mayfield
    Spur off the existing North Ring Road, just after Tinkers Cross
    Up through farmland in Rathcooney
    Joining the road beside the Kinvara estates in Ballyvolane.
    After that it’s a bit too vague to guess, as it’s all farmland.

    My guess is the Southern one will be given priority but will be stuck in eternal NIMBY objection hell, and the northern one which looks pretty straightforward and much easier to build,
    never will be built as a load of new estates will pop up in Rathcooney, during the 20 years we're sitting on our hands waiting.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,548 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Taking some pressure off the N40 would definitely be a good thing, make local traffic local and rebalance the N/M40 towards long distance usage. I spent a year in Cork, it wasn't always easy to get around. Some journeys you'd be faster walking than waiting for a bus and some of the roads around the periphery especially on the Northside were awful.
    Overall the plan looks good. New tram system, expansion/electrificaiton of the heavy rail, and proper ring roads would be awesome. The problem I suspect will be the same as in Dublin. Great plans that are all necessary, but no money for them. Like the DART Underground in Dublin - all of this is badly needed but will any of it be funded?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,518 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    SeanW wrote: »
    Taking some pressure off the N40 would definitely be a good thing, make local traffic local and rebalance the N/M40 towards long distance usage. I spent a year in Cork, it wasn't always easy to get around. Some journeys you'd be faster walking than waiting for a bus and some of the roads around the periphery especially on the Northside were awful.
    Overall the plan looks good. New tram system, expansion/electrificaiton of the heavy rail, and proper ring roads would be awesome. The problem I suspect will be the same as in Dublin. Great plans that are all necessary, but no money for them. Like the DART Underground in Dublin - all of this is badly needed but will any of it be funded?

    I suspect that new bridge over the ballybrack stream is part of this road. Interesting to see will they create grade separation at the junction with the N27. Badly needed.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,870 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    SeanW wrote: »
    Overall the plan looks good. New tram system

    Can't believe the tram will cost a billion though.


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Can't believe the tram will cost a billion though.
    I find it hard to believe there is an accurate costing for the tram project yet given the route isn't even decided, some of it goes through green fields and there are no major structures involved (the only major crossing I can think of is the new Lee bridge at Kent station).

    €1bn will probably be accurate by the time it gets built taking into account inflation etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,542 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I assume that the SDR will be a BusConnects upgrade to the existing roads plus filling in the gaps. This has the potential to be at least as controversial as some of the Dublin BC routes, if not even more so, I would have thought?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,783 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Up to a point yet, but a better way of thinking about it is like the current Dublin Outer Ring. DC in each direction with lights and the odd roundabout with a bus lane too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,542 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Up to a point yet, but a better way of thinking about it is like the current Dublin Outer Ring. DC in each direction with lights and the odd roundabout with a bus lane too.
    DC with a bus lane and presumably a cycle lane and footpaths, how is there space for all that?


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    CMATS document suggests one car lane, one bus lane + pedestrian/cyclist facilities in each direction for the 2 distributor roads.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 438 ✭✭Limerick74


    marno21 wrote: »
    CMATS document suggests one car lane, one bus lane + pedestrian/cyclist facilities in each direction for the 2 distributor roads.


    Cross Section from CMATS attached


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,518 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    marno21 wrote: »
    CMATS document suggests one car lane, one bus lane + pedestrian/cyclist facilities in each direction for the 2 distributor roads.

    That’s sufficient as long as junctions are done correctly. Grade separation where possible.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    That’s sufficient as long as junctions are done correctly. Grade separation where possible.
    Indeed. As you say above grade seperation at the N27 junction is paramount. The approach to the Sarsfield Road Roundabout will be a challenge too, that is carnage at peak times.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,783 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    My worry is that a road of that style will only get roundabouts or traffic lights, which means people will still use the N40.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,518 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    My worry is that a road of that style will only get roundabouts or traffic lights, which means people will still use the N40.

    It will be next to useless without grade separation at the N27.

    The biggest issue around there is access to Grange and grade separation here would solve an awful lot.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,542 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    As it is a local distributor road, I seriously doubt there will be any GSJs. Not sure how a BusConnects style road would work with GSJs, the bus lane would become an on/off merging lane. You'd certainly need a lot of space to provide for that, a lot more than available here.

    I wouldn't be surprised if there was no junction with the N27, just a fly over above it. The road is to facilitate local traffic movements mainly south of the N40.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    As it is a local distributor road, I seriously doubt there will be any GSJs. Not sure how a BusConnects style road would work with GSJs, the bus lane would become an on/off merging lane. You'd certainly need a lot of space to provide for that, a lot more than available here.

    I wouldn't be surprised if there was no junction with the N27, just a fly over above it. The road is to facilitate local traffic movements mainly south of the N40.

    Well in fairness the North Ring Road (the one there now) is a lesser standard than this and has a GSJ at the N8 junction at Tivoli

    There will definitely be a junction with the N27. I can't understand why in Ireland there is no appetite whatsoever for compact flyover/flyunder junctions with a link road between the two roads. Not full grade seperation but no conflicts for through traffic on both mainlines.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,783 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    I remember that GSJ being built in the late 80s. Can you imagine the carnage if it wasn't there now!


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,542 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    marno21 wrote: »
    Well in fairness the North Ring Road (the one there now) is a lesser standard than this and has a GSJ at the N8 junction at Tivoli

    There will definitely be a junction with the N27. I can't understand why in Ireland there is no appetite whatsoever for compact flyover/flyunder junctions with a link road between the two roads. Not full grade seperation but no conflicts for through traffic on both mainlines.
    Even compact GSJs require significant changes in levels to get one road over and one road under. These level changes have to start a couple of hundred metres from the actual junction, on both sides. Plus you also have to create the necessary slips. There is nothing like the sound required on those existing roads and no space for off line build. They are also littered with access to housing estates, businesses, etc.

    If GSJs were actually being considered, an entirely new alignment south of existing development would be far easier and cheaper. The road is just to facilitate local east west movements south of the N40 to take them off the N40, it's not intended to take longer distance journeys.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,518 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Even compact GSJs require significant changes in levels to get one road over and one road under. These level changes have to start a couple of hundred metres from the actual junction, on both sides. Plus you also have to create the necessary slips. There is nothing like the sound required on those existing roads and no space for off line build. They are also littered with access to housing estates, businesses, etc.

    If GSJs were actually being considered, an entirely new alignment south of existing development would be far easier and cheaper. The road is just to facilitate local east west movements south of the N40 to take them off the N40, it's not intended to take longer distance journeys.

    Forge Hill already exists and feeds into Grange. It is a disaster at rush hour due to the junction with the N27. Widening a road isn’t going to help unless the junction with the N27 is upgraded IMO.

    I think hAving no access for this road with the N27 would be a good solution.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,783 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Or maybe one-way slips of some sort that bring traffic into the airport but not onto the N27.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,518 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Or maybe one-way slips of some sort that bring traffic into the airport but not onto the N27.

    There was talk of a second entrance to the airport from the top of Doughcloyne. Not sure if that’ll ever happen.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    There was talk of a second entrance to the airport from the top of Doughcloyne. Not sure if that’ll ever happen.
    It's mentioned in one of the CMATS documents that it's under consideration as a measure to reduce N40 traffic.

    At present traffic from the Wilton area going to the airport uses the N27 and the N40. Would make sense to have a direct link avoiding the N40.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,542 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    There was talk of a second entrance to the airport from the top of Doughcloyne. Not sure if that’ll ever happen.
    If the SDR skirts south of the existing development west of the N27, it would be little more than a km to the airport. A GSJ could be built there, avoiding the need for a junction with the N27.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,783 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Would a link to the M28 be too much to ask for in time? Separate from the SDR?


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    There was talk of a second entrance to the airport from the top of Doughcloyne. Not sure if that’ll ever happen.

    This is mentioned as an important N40 complimentary route (along with the Douglas East-West link which will be part of the SDR) in the N40 Demand Management Study. I expect to see it advanced now given the push to implemented the recommendations of the N40 Demand Management Study as part of CMATS.

    (In case anyone wants something to read on the toilet this weekend: https://www.tii.ie/tii-library/strategic-planning/strategic-reports/N40-Demand-Management-Study-June-2017.pdf)


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,783 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    I'd be interested to see what they come up with for this, whether this'll include a bridge near Douglas and a load of other stuff. It'll be fought tooth and nail by the usual clowns.

    Heres hoping for a layout similar to that of the ORR in Dublin, with little to no stupid reuse of current roads. Do it properly.

    https://goo.gl/maps/u4PS8f7d61fKxyb28

    Basically 2+2+Buslane with ped/cycle track and major at-grade junctions only with some LILOs thrown in.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,904 ✭✭✭cantalach


    I reckon the all-new 190m section cutting through the Mangala Wood to join Grange Road (R851) to the old Carrigaline Road (R609) will be fought tooth and nail locally. Local teens will be badly affected as the wood is a favourite spot for a sess’...


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    cantalach wrote: »
    the wood is a favourite spot for a sess’...

    That’s not all :pac: :D


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