Are there just too many cars around?

Ubbquittious

It is gas the way you could have a car with a perfectly good engine and body thats 15-20 years with maybe a few small mechanical problems and it wouldnt be worth fixing.

I wonder how long "they" would have to stop making new cars before we would actually have a serious shortage of them. We are in a much better position than cuba was when they started having bothers importing cars. In mainland Europe old cars seem to hold their value much better but here nobody bothers with them. How come?

CJhaughey

Ubbquittious wrote: »

It is gas the way you could have a car with a perfectly good engine and body thats 15-20 years with maybe a few small mechanical problems and it wouldnt be worth fixing.

I wonder how long "they" would have to stop making new cars before we would actually have a serious shortage of them. We are in a much better position than cuba was when they started having bothers importing cars. In mainland Europe old cars seem to hold their value much better but here nobody bothers with them. How come?

Insurance primarily, many people cannot insure over 10yr old cars.

Del2005

CJhaughey wrote: »

Insurance primarily, many people cannot insure over 10yr old cars.

More to do with our age related plates and impressing the Jones, old cars were worth feck all compared to the continent when insurance wasn't an issue.

We've 5 >10 year old cars insured in my family, only one we have trouble insuring is my car and that's because of the engine size.

mickdw

Too much easy car credit around so people take the view that they are better paying for something decent instead of paying to keep an old car going.
Motor tax rates on the nice stuff killed the value on them but I'm interested to see how some of the more recent stuff goes in a few years with nice engines and low tax. They should hold value much better but the insurers will likely have taken everything 10 years old off the road at that stage.

TrailerBob

The 10 year old thing with insurance is a nonsense. In fact the lack of proper regulation on the industry is an farce of epic proportions. But I think Del is right, plate snobbery is huge in this country, driven by the motor industry. They advertise blatantly as the '191' Opel Crapland X or whatever. They are selling the plate as much as the car. I buy on condition and mileage, but I'm a rarity, I also have the same daily for 10 years

bazz26

It's amusing that people go out changing their mobile phones or tablets frequently despite their old phone or tablet still doing the job it was designed to do. People changing their cars frequently seems to cause more bemusement and bother from some quarters. Why don't people hold onto their phones until they break? It seems to be more accepting to be first to own the next iphone, etc. What's the difference between that and a car other than the price tag? Or is it a simple case of begrudgery?

CalamariFritti

Society, media, advertising, a lot of factors. Ultimately we're being conditioned to consume. The faster the better. So the wheels can keep turning in this system we built that no one understands but where everyone knows that it must never be allowed to slow down. Many things have become throwaway products in its wake. We're actively discouraged from repairing them. Phones, TVs, fridges and stuff, ye even cars. Because the faster the better.

TrailerBob

bazz26 wrote: »

It's amusing that people go out changing their mobile phones or tablets frequently despite their old phone or tablet still doing the job it was designed to do. People changing their cars frequently seems to cause more bemusement and bother from some quarters. Why don't people hold onto their phones until they break? It seems to be more accepting to be first to own the next iphone, etc. What's the difference between that and a car other than the price tag? Or is it a simple case of begrudgery?

It's not begrudgery for me anyway, but can't speak for others. I'm not saying you shouldn't chanage your car if you want, but the age plate thing just drives consumerism. Here we go.... Look at how kids (parents) are swindled out of money by in-app purchases on games and the like. The marketing ploy is 'only 2 days left' or 'get it now' or label it with a hierarchical number with coins or whatever... The same gratification is being preyed on with the 'new for 191' campaigns, or 'order now for 192'. The label is being pushed, the tag showing your achievement, not the car.

How else are so many Dacias being sold... Not because of their high quality interior, or impeccable driving dynamics. It's how Paddy and Bridie get their 'brand new' car. And fair play to them.. but the further we go into this pushed idea of the next 'achievement' the more pressure people will feel to keep the number on their plate ticking over.

And no, I can't sleep at the minute! #endrant

CiniO

Ubbquittious wrote: »

In mainland Europe old cars seem to hold their value much better but here nobody bothers with them. How come?

IMO it's about market thing - supply and demand.

On the Continent cars travel from richer countries to poorer, and so on, keeping their value better. In Ireland or UK, older cars have nowhere to go really.

Example:
Helmut from Hamburg in Germany purchases his brand new BMW 3 series, and drives it for say 4 years commuting on autobahn clocking 200k kilometres. Then he sells it Matthias from Berlin who keeps driving for another 3 years, and clocking another 100k kms.
Now car is 7 years old, 300k km on the clock, and starts requiring bit more maintenance which might cost too much to get it all TUV compliant.
So Matthias decides to sell his car Janusz who is a his own backyard car trader from Katowice in Poland. Matthias does quick repairs cheaper in Poland, clocks it down to 150k km, and sells it to Artur from Krakow who is more than happy to get a bargain on flash only 7 year old BMW.
Artur drives it for another 4 years, keeps repairing it, but decides it's getting bit expensive on repair costs for 11 year old car. On top of that he encounters a small collision where bumper and wing and bonnet is damaged. He decides against repairing, and puts it up for sale.
He get's interest from Vladimir from Ukraine, who decides to buy it bring down to Ukraine and repair it there with much cheaper cost than it would cost in Poland. Obiously again after repair he lowers the clock, and effectively 11 year old BMW with nearly 500k km mileage and previously crashed, ends up being offered for sale in Ukraine as nearly-as-new shiny BMW with only 200k km on the clock...

This is just a quick way it works and how those cars keep their value.


Cars from Ireland or UK have nowhere to go really, maybe with minor exception of bigger 4x4 or pickups which might end up in Africa.
Also Irish damp weather doesn't help with rust prevention, so it's very hard to find car over 10 year old with no rust. Something that is totally not a problem in Spain, where sometimes even 30 years old cars have no rust at all.


In short IMO reason for quicker devalation of cars in Ireland comparing to continent, is that they have no where to go for export.

lalababa

We are aping the US consume culture. The plate year is everything! The 2008 to 2010 era cars with the 'cheap tax' are also getting fairly cheap to buy so it's not so much the tax thing!
The advertising is pushing the line ' you are not living if you don't buy x y z new and improved and shiny' your 'quality of life is poor ' 'you need to buy/spend to have fun' and 'your outward display of wealth I.e. **** you buy corrilates to your social status'. This is fully ingrained into the mindset of most in Ireland, save for a few of the elderly and hippies. There is a massive fear of being 'looked down upon' if you are poor/OR SEEN to be poor here. Soooo they work their asses off for the big house and shiny car. Anytime someone who emigrated to AUS/US/UK says they needed to because 'the quality of life is better' or some such is basically saying I can earn more and buy more expensive **** there than here. We should be looking to Europe more than a failing US socio economic model.

_Kaiser_

You can't keep older cars on the road here if it's anything more than a bog standard <2L family runaround. Anything beyond that will cost a fortune to insure (if you can even get quotes), have stupid high motor tax, require annual NCT with potential for lots of trivial failings at more cost, and ultimately be considered worthless in the market so if anything happens to it, the insurers will write it off immediately.

I've a now 9 year old 3.0 TDI A6 with 370,000km on the clock as of last week, and despite it still running great and plenty of life in it yet, I know I'll realistically have to change it for pretty much buttons within the next 12-18 months for the above reasons. It's extremely frustrating, wasteful and expensive - plus finding something with an equivalent spec isn't easy either.

Think I saw a report during the week about the EU investigating insurers in this country, so maybe things could change.

pburns

bazz26 wrote: »

It's amusing that people go out changing their mobile phones or tablets frequently despite their old phone or tablet still doing the job it was designed to do. People changing their cars frequently seems to cause more bemusement and bother from some quarters. Why don't people hold onto their phones until they break? It seems to be more accepting to be first to own the next iphone, etc. What's the difference between that and a car other than the price tag? Or is it a simple case of begrudgery?

There's no comparison in resources - raw materials, energy etc. - that go into a mobile phone vs a car. (altho I think the built-in battery is a bit of a con to sell phones...).

My current car was bought new in 2016 & it wasn't a Dacia either. TBH tho it'll be my last for the foreseeable - it's a shocking waste of money. I didn't buy for reg (actually a 162 which for some people a total waste). However I do know people, relatives even, buying base spec purely for that reason.

Taking an obvious age identifier off plates & tacking the insurance scam would do far more for the planet than the current cycle of consumerism where good cars are being made prematurely obsolete. Buying a brand new electric car is not as environmentally responsible as some would have you believe...

troyzer

The value of repairs exceeds the cost of getting a newer, used car which will be cheaper to run and insure.

I had an 05 Yaris with around 180k on the clock. It was still fine and I wouldn't have replaced it except a few things started going wrong in a row and it became clear that it was going to become a moneypit. I got €800 for it and bought a 142 Fiesta for €8k. The new car is half the cost to insure (€2k third party down to €900 fully comp), more fuel efficient and it hasn't given me a single mechanical problem.

By contrast, I was given a bill for the Yaris to get it up to standard of around €1,200-€1,500.

People replace cars for many different reasons. Not everyone can afford to keep up with the Jones. For people like me, the reason why we replace cars is because it's cheaper. Paradoxically.

Having said that, if there were no new cars and everyone had some level of mechanical skill then I probably could have kept my Yaris going for €50 and a tin of beans.

troyzer

Another thing to note is that paradoxically, the cheapest way to motor is to buy a new car every two years.

I know somebody who buys a brand new Toyota every two years. He loses around €5k in depreciation over those two years and then buys a brand new version of the same car. So he spends €2,500 a year on always having a new car with no debt. That's not bad, especially when Toyota always throw in free servicing and the warranty. He doesn't have to worry about anything.

Mad_maxx

troyzer wrote: »

Another thing to note is that paradoxically, the cheapest way to motor is to buy a new car every two years.

I know somebody who buys a brand new Toyota every two years. He loses around €5k in depreciation over those two years and then buys a brand new version of the same car. So he spends €2,500 a year on always having a new car with no debt. That's not bad, especially when Toyota always throw in free servicing and the warranty. He doesn't have to worry about anything.

5k seems like a remarkably low figure?

wonski

Whoever told you his depreciation cost was 5k over two years on a new car is not telling the whole truth, or just trying to justify getting same car every two years.

Not a chance.

loyatemu

troyzer wrote: »

Another thing to note is that paradoxically, the cheapest way to motor is to buy a new car every two years.

I really doubt this is cheaper than buying a 2-3 year old car and getting 5 years out of it (or at the other end of the scale, Bangernomics).

seamie78

im pretty sure the cheapest is 2years old and drive for 4-5, a new Toyota would lose at least 4-5k in year one alone

troyzer

wonski wrote: »

Whoever told you his depreciation cost was 5k over two years on a new car is not telling the whole truth, or just trying to justify getting same car every two years.

Not a chance.

Said person is a close family member, I know this for a fact.

Having said that, I think he took a slightly stepped down trim package on the next car in that particular case. He also doesn't do huge mileage.

A brand new CHR Luna Sport is €32k. 2017, used Luna Sports go for €27k on the Toyota Ireland website.

I think in this case he had a Luna Sport and stepped down to a Luna and paid €5k to cover the depreciation. But the depreciation really isn't that bad over two years if you have the right model.

He also has a habit of trying to bundle trade ins. He'll talk to other family members who are thinking of getting another car and will go to the dealer with both of them.

Bob Harris

The whole adding a 1 or 2 is entirely cosmetic and illustrates how people are motivated by image and appearance.

cruizer101

bazz26 wrote: »

It's amusing that people go out changing their mobile phones or tablets frequently despite their old phone or tablet still doing the job it was designed to do. People changing their cars frequently seems to cause more bemusement and bother from some quarters. Why don't people hold onto their phones until they break? It seems to be more accepting to be first to own the next iphone, etc. What's the difference between that and a car other than the price tag? Or is it a simple case of begrudgery?

In general people change their phone for new features or because of battery life. Where as there is a significant enough number for people who change car just to have a new one. Many people get the exact same car every year or two. Nothing wrong with old one and little to no new features.

Insurance definitely has a big effect on the issue. I recently got rid of a 99 Honda Accord which was running fine no issues, I needed a car with bigger boot as was getting dogs. Ended up having to sell the car for a few hundred to some who was just going to scrap it. If insurance was more reasonable there would have been far more chance of someone buying the car to drive it.
Or to be honest if it was easier to get insured on two vehicles at the same time I would potentially have considered keeping it to drive myself when didn't need the bigger boot.

It really is a shame to see such waste, but the government gets a nice amount of tax from vrt so its not going to look at changing it.

lalababa

Take a Volvo s40. A very solid / reliable and comfortable car. The equivalent model today the V40 is 30k new. A 2014 V40 cira 14.5k. A 2009 S40 is c.3.5k. A 2004 S40 is c.500euros. 50% depreciation in 5yrs or 15k. 88% in 10yrs or 26.5k. 98% in 15yrs or 29.5k. Shocking.
A friend of mine goes all over the country in a 2003 S40 well serviced no trouble.

km991148

cruizer101 wrote: »

In general people change their phone for new features or because of battery life.

These days the mobile phone and laptop markets are at a plateau and really the new features add very little.

Its all consumer driven crap and build in obsolescence.

I just repaired a 5 year old Dell xps laptop- no issue and the thing runs like new. Some people think this is stupid and pointless but its still a 4k 16gig rab 250gig SSD system and to replace the cracked screen and palmrest was less than 200 quid.

There is no reason not to make consumer good not repairable (or batteries replaceable) or cars more insurable other than corporate greed. The Irish need to keep up with the Jonses plays very well into modern consumer society.

km991148

On top of that - I have no car at the moment - if I did buy something it be a nice big engined older petrol that I would enjoy driving when I want to or need to drive.
People who use the green argument and yet still happily and lazily go and get the latest iThing or 191-DXXX crap box can fu(k themselves as when you look at the way society is now its madness.

kermitpwee

troyzer wrote: »

The value of repairs exceeds the cost of getting a newer, used car which will be cheaper to run and insure.

I had an 05 Yaris with around 180k on the clock. It was still fine and I wouldn't have replaced

By contrast, I was given a bill for the Yaris to get it up to standard of around €1,200-€1,500.

I remember that thread, that bill was absoulte bull though, they were trying to rob you, so not a great example imo

Mad_maxx

lalababa wrote: »

Take a Volvo s40. A very solid / reliable and comfortable car. The equivalent model today the V40 is 30k new. A 2014 V40 cira 14.5k. A 2009 S40 is c.3.5k. A 2004 S40 is c.500euros. 50% depreciation in 5yrs or 15k. 88% in 10yrs or 26.5k. 98% in 15yrs or 29.5k. Shocking.
A friend of mine goes all over the country in a 2003 S40 well serviced no trouble.

Those volvos give plenty of trouble

troyzer

kermitpwee wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

The value of repairs exceeds the cost of getting a newer, used car which will be cheaper to run and insure.

I had an 05 Yaris with around 180k on the clock. It was still fine and I wouldn't have replaced

By contrast, I was given a bill for the Yaris to get it up to standard of around €1,200-€1,500.

I remember that thread, that bill was absoulte bull though, they were trying to rob you, so not a great example imo

I ended up getting a second opinion even though the first one was from a close family friend.

The second quote was even higher.

Del2005

bazz26 wrote: »

It's amusing that people go out changing their mobile phones or tablets frequently despite their old phone or tablet still doing the job it was designed to do. People changing their cars frequently seems to cause more bemusement and bother from some quarters. Why don't people hold onto their phones until they break? It seems to be more accepting to be first to own the next iphone, etc. What's the difference between that and a car other than the price tag? Or is it a simple case of begrudgery?

I don't care what people spend their money on and it's actually good for me that people place so much emphasis on the little bit of plastic at the front and rear of the car. I buy on condition not the year or county.

troyzer wrote: »

Another thing to note is that paradoxically, the cheapest way to motor is to buy a new car every two years.

I know somebody who buys a brand new Toyota every two years. He loses around €5k in depreciation over those two years and then buys a brand new version of the same car. So he spends €2,500 a year on always having a new car with no debt. That's not bad, especially when Toyota always throw in free servicing and the warranty. He doesn't have to worry about anything.

My last few cars were ~€5k and I kept them for >5 years. My motoring was cheaper.


On the insurance. If you go 3rd party on a car it's crazy money, go fully comp on the same car and it'll be reasonable. Also never value your car less than €5k as they load these, you'll only get book value anyway. Quotes for my mother in a 03 Punto were over €2k for 3rd party only yet only €400 fully comp.

PCeeeee

troyzer wrote: »

Said person is a close family member, I know this for a fact.

Having said that, I think he took a slightly stepped down trim package on the next car in that particular case. He also doesn't do huge mileage.

A brand new CHR Luna Sport is €32k. 2017, used Luna Sports go for €27k on the Toyota Ireland website.

I think in this case he had a Luna Sport and stepped down to a Luna and paid €5k to cover the depreciation. But the depreciation really isn't that bad over two years if you have the right model.

He also has a habit of trying to bundle trade ins. He'll talk to other family members who are thinking of getting another car and will go to the dealer with both of them.

So he goes from doing it repeatedly to doing it once and buying a cheaper car?

Nope.

Old diesel

troyzer wrote: »

wonski wrote: »

Whoever told you his depreciation cost was 5k over two years on a new car is not telling the whole truth, or just trying to justify getting same car every two years.

Not a chance.

Said person is a close family member, I know this for a fact.

Having said that, I think he took a slightly stepped down trim package on the next car in that particular case. He also doesn't do huge mileage.

A brand new CHR Luna Sport is €32k. 2017, used Luna Sports go for €27k on the Toyota Ireland website.

I think in this case he had a Luna Sport and stepped down to a Luna and paid €5k to cover the depreciation. But the depreciation really isn't that bad over two years if you have the right model.

He also has a habit of trying to bundle trade ins. He'll talk to other family members who are thinking of getting another car and will go to the dealer with both of them.

The CHR situation is somewhat unusual - and not imo representative of the wider market.

They are stupidly priced on the 2nd hand market for what they are as some people want the styling.

This ironically makes them potentially a decent buy as a brand new car.

Just to highlight the daftness of it all - a new brand new out of the box Corolla hybrid is similar money to the 2 yr CHR.

Incidentally the MINI was similar when new in the 01 to 05 era.

However the value is gone out of those MINIs - as in they are worth little now as 15 to 18 year old cars.

CHR will go the same way as the next "car that just has to be bought" comes along.

troyzer

PCeeeee wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Said person is a close family member, I know this for a fact.

Having said that, I think he took a slightly stepped down trim package on the next car in that particular case. He also doesn't do huge mileage.

A brand new CHR Luna Sport is €32k. 2017, used Luna Sports go for €27k on the Toyota Ireland website.

I think in this case he had a Luna Sport and stepped down to a Luna and paid €5k to cover the depreciation. But the depreciation really isn't that bad over two years if you have the right model.

He also has a habit of trying to bundle trade ins. He'll talk to other family members who are thinking of getting another car and will go to the dealer with both of them.

So he goes from doing it repeatedly to doing it once and buying a cheaper car?

Nope.

He does this every time. That €5k figure was just this time. He had an Auris for a few cars before that and I imagine it was closer to €7-8k then every time he swapped.

€3.5-€4k is still a lot less than what many people pay for a car that's constantly depreciating.

lalababa

Land Rover Discovery and VW toureg new today are c. 100k. 2004 models are c.2.5k with 97.5% or 97.5k depreciation. Shocking. If they follow the % s same as the V40 then they lose around 50k in the 1st 5 yrs.

cruizer101

lalababa wrote: »

Land Rover Discovery and VW toureg new today are c. 100k. 2004 models are c.2.5k with 97.5% or 97.5k depreciation. Shocking. If they follow the % s same as the V40 then they lose around 50k in the 1st 5 yrs.

Discovery can be got for 60k, top spec model starts at 94k so with extra you could likely reach 100k.
Touareg is 66 to 77k.

Depreciation is huge on cars like that but they aren't dropping from 100k.

lalababa

According to money calculator.com a 100k Discovery will lose 96% over 15 years, a 95k Toureg will lose 97%. That's in the UK mind, it's more in Ireland. Top spec bottom spec the %s are the same.

PCeeeee

troyzer wrote: »

He does this every time. That €5k figure was just this time.

That is patently not what you said.

This is what you said:

I know somebody who buys a brand new Toyota every two years. He loses around €5k in depreciation over those two years and then buys a brand new version of the same car. So he spends €2,500 a year on always having a new car with no debt.

sk8board

We probably all have one of those “guys we know”. In my case an elderly family member changes his Ford Focus in January every year for easily over a decade or more now, certainly since he retired anyway. It costs him €5-6k annually. he only does about 5000kms.
This past Jan he was told it would be €8k+ to change into a similar spec new model Focus, so he passed and decided the current car will do just fine