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How are the tolls legal, and why are they still there?

  • 15-05-2019 9:45am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 113 ✭✭ epicmoe


    Does it not infringe our right to travel?
    wasn't the line at the time that they would be there only until the road was paid for? it surely must be paid by now.
    whats going on?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,437 ✭✭✭ harr


    epicmoe wrote: »
    Does it not infringe our right to travel?
    wasn't the line at the time that they would be there only until the road was paid for? it surely must be paid by now.
    whats going on?
    You don’t have to use toll roads if you don’t want to plenty of alternative routes but if you want the quicker option then we don’t have much options available unfortunately. Most other countries have tolls same as here but my thinking is that surely the tax we pay for our cars should cover cost of roads and upkeep of roads.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,526 ✭✭✭✭ salmocab


    epicmoe wrote: »
    Does it not infringe our right to travel?
    wasn't the line at the time that they would be there only until the road was paid for? it surely must be paid by now.
    whats going on?

    Not suggesting it’s why we have them but on both the east link and west link if we got rid of them it would cause a disaster on the roads. The m50 especially.


  • Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭ laotg


    epicmoe wrote:
    Does it not infringe our right to travel? wasn't the line at the time that they would be there only until the road was paid for? it surely must be paid by now. whats going on?


    Right to travel isn't something quoted in the Irish constitution, other than right to travel between this state and another. You may be getting mixed up with the US Constitution.

    That aside, we are not being prevented from travelling by a toll, there are many alternatives if we don't want to pay a toll.


  • Registered Users Posts: 917 ✭✭✭ gjim


    epicmoe wrote: »
    Does it not infringe our right to travel?
    wasn't the line at the time that they would be there only until the road was paid for? it surely must be paid by now.
    whats going on?
    Where did you get the notion there's a right to travel for free? You pay to travel regardless of the mode.

    Roads are never "paid for" - motorways are expensive to maintain.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,052 ✭✭✭✭ Del2005


    Wait till they get us in EVs and every road will be a toll road as they will have to make up for the motor tax and fuel duties lost, it'll cost you more to drive during rush hour also. Big brother will be with you in the car.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 77,621 ✭✭✭✭ Victor


    The M50 cost €3.5 billion to build, not including maintenance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭ cdaly_


    harr wrote: »
    my thinking is that surely the tax we pay for our cars should cover cost of roads and upkeep of roads.
    It should but it's woefully inadequate. I don't have numbers to hand but motor tax probably pays for less than 25% of the cost of roads, pollution etc. The rest comes out of general taxation and EU structural funds.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 43,485 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    i know i'm kinda joining a pile on here, but even if you assumed your 'right to travel', this would in no way imply a right to drive.
    to drive, you need to prove competence to drive, be insured, have a roadworthy car, etc.
    the motorways are even more restricted than other roads in the criteria you need to meet, so if anywhere there was not a right to travel, it'd be motorways.

    also, IIRC the toll operators are operating under a 25 year (maybe longer) licence to run the tolls due to the PPP nature of the motorways. it's not about whether the roads have been paid for or not, it's about the contract by which they agreed to participate in the PPP.


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭ thomond2006


    I remember getting a fright in France after a toll for an approx. 90 minutes on the motorway cost about €15. I don't think we have it too bad here with the tolls tbh.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭ cdaly_


    I remember getting a fright in France after a toll for an approx. 90 minutes on the motorway cost about €15. I don't think we have it too bad here with the tolls tbh.

    Are you sure that was a car toll? I had an experience where the car, with roofbox and bicycles on top was detected as a truck by the auto toll booth. I missed it on one occasion and got charged a lot but remembered to press the assistance button on other occasions and the remote operator reset the toll to the correct value.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,635 ✭✭✭✭ Podge_irl


    I remember getting a fright in France after a toll for an approx. 90 minutes on the motorway cost about €15. I don't think we have it too bad here with the tolls tbh.

    Driving Geneva - Milan you end up paying about €70 worth of tolls (assuming you take the tunnel).


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 43,485 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    I remember getting a fright in France after a toll for an approx. 90 minutes on the motorway cost about €15. I don't think we have it too bad here with the tolls tbh.
    don't they apply speeding fines to toll tickets in france? or is that an urban legend?


  • Registered Users Posts: 77,621 ✭✭✭✭ Victor


    cdaly_ wrote: »
    Are you sure that was a car toll?
    French tolls are very high, so it could be.


  • Registered Users Posts: 917 ✭✭✭ gjim


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Driving Geneva - Milan you end up paying about €70 worth of tolls (assuming you take the tunnel).
    I remember playing around with the French toll calculator and thinking I found the most expensive motorway trip: Dunkirk to Monaco - 107 euro in tolls. Irish tolls are relatively inexpensive - if they charged as much as in France, Limerick to the M50 would cost 17 euro.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,712 ✭✭✭ Markcheese


    Why would a person have a right to travel across private land without permission... (not that I enjoy paying tolls)
    As to how this fits in with the "only guards, lollipop ladies and livestock herders allowed stop traffic" I haven't a clue...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,341 ✭✭✭ normanoffside


    I drove from Barcelona to Valencia and got charged €50 for Tolls. Cost more than the car rental. Should have just go the train.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 33,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Seth Brundle


    Victor wrote: »
    French tolls are very high, so it could be.
    I'd somewhat disagree. They may sound expensive but they cover long distances so in my experience proportionally they are generally cheaper than tolls here.
    Plus they are worth it if you're having to drive a few hundred kms.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,619 ✭✭✭ Deagol


    cdaly_ wrote: »
    Are you sure that was a car toll? I had an experience where the car, with roofbox and bicycles on top was detected as a truck by the auto toll booth. I missed it on one occasion and got charged a lot but remembered to press the assistance button on other occasions and the remote operator reset the toll to the correct value.

    Just back from France yesterday. Drove Nice to Marseille and back - tolls each way €17.90. Distance about 180km each way.

    Was talking to French guy and they have no road/motor tax like we have, no annual charge other than 2 yearly NCT.

    More polluting cars are taxed higher at time of purchase (I think our VRT works similarly).

    Also, their fuel is more heavily taxed. Litre of diesel was €1.67 near Nice airport. Petrol €1.59.

    I think I prefer our system - driving in France would definitely cost more unless you avoid the motorways!


  • Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭ Billgirlylegs


    Victor wrote: »
    The M50 cost €3.5 billion to build, not including maintenance.

    Not doubting your good self, but I would imagine that number was plucked from the same area as that from which they got the cost of "the new childrens hospital"

    I'd hazard a guess that over 20 odd years, two different currencies, private enterprise involvement and the usual sophisticated and farseeing planning, there is no chance of anyone getting within an asses roar of calculating it.:D:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭ Billgirlylegs


    i know i'm kinda joining a pile on here, but even if you assumed your 'right to travel', this would in no way imply a right to drive.
    to drive, you need to prove competence to drive, be insured, have a roadworthy car, etc.
    the motorways are even more restricted than other roads in the criteria you need to meet, so if anywhere there was not a right to travel, it'd be motorways.

    also, IIRC the toll operators are operating under a 25 year (maybe longer) licence to run the tolls due to the PPP nature of the motorways. it's not about whether the roads have been paid for or not, it's about the contract by which they agreed to participate in the PPP.

    That was how they were built originally - East Link in 1981 and West Link(single carriageway E/W in 1991.
    Remember the hold ups on M50 Toll booths.
    They were removed and NPR introduced when the State took ownership ( for a hefty fee). All the rip off fees on the badly built, badly designed, non motorway (100kph) auxiliary lane, extended slip road crappy M50 go to Government coffers


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,201 ✭✭✭ ongarboy


    epicmoe wrote: »
    Does it not infringe our right to travel?
    wasn't the line at the time that they would be there only until the road was paid for? it surely must be paid by now.
    whats going on?


    Shock horror - State company Irish Rail is charging me 70 euro to travel return from Dublin to Tralee on state owned railway tracks - is that infringing my right to travel? Dublin Bus is charging me 3 euro to travel from Blanchardstown to city centre on state owned roads - another infringement, right?:rolleyes::rolleyes:

    How is paying for something infringing on a right. I've a right to eat and drink therefore should Dunnes and Tesco give me my food and drink for free?

    Your logic is seriously flawed OP!


  • Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭ n!ghtmancometh


    Should be a congestion charge inside the canals too. Cars are a massive waste of scarce road space, 1 full bus = 90 single passenger cars. Arrogance of car owners to believe they have an automatic divine right to the space.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    Deagol wrote: »

    I think I prefer our system - driving in France would definitely cost more unless you avoid the motorways!

    Its EUR 3.10 for 3.7km on a motorway in west Dublin,
    thats about 90c/km


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,103 ✭✭✭ Idleater


    Deagol wrote: »

    I think I prefer our system - driving in France would definitely cost more unless you avoid the motorways!

    Its EUR 3.10 for 3.7km on a motorway in west Dublin,
    thats about 90c/km
    By that logic it's the same 3.10 to get all the way to Waterford by motorway, so you can reduce your cont per km massively by continuing all the way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,720 ✭✭✭✭ fullstop


    Idleater wrote: »
    By that logic it's the same 3.10 to get all the way to Waterford by motorway, so you can reduce your cont per km massively by continuing all the way.

    Exactly, completely ridiculous logic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 77,621 ✭✭✭✭ Victor


    Its EUR 3.10 for 3.7km on a motorway in west Dublin,
    thats about 90c/km

    Gormanston to Gorey is also €3.10, about 2c/km. https://www.google.com/maps/dir/53.64609,-6.2509821/52.632943,-6.37259/@53.2212781,-6.5453205,8z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0

    Naas to Grannagh is free. https://www.google.com/maps/dir/53.2352536,-6.6332111/52.2845746,-7.1509418/@52.7388181,-7.5189838,9z


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,617 ✭✭✭ CrabRevolution


    gjim wrote: »
    I remember playing around with the French toll calculator and thinking I found the most expensive motorway trip: Dunkirk to Monaco - 107 euro in tolls. Irish tolls are relatively inexpensive - if they charged as much as in France, Limerick to the M50 would cost 17 euro.


    I'm wondering what Dunkerque-Bordeaux would be so. Reason being we drove Paris-Bordeaux and I don't think we were far off €100, just toll after toll. One of them seemed to be on a pay per km basis. The driver asked if I had money for the toll so I handed over a €50 note. I was aghast when not only was I given no change but asked if I had any more money since the toll came to about €60.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 876 ✭✭✭ Lord Glentoran


    epicmoe wrote: »
    Does it not infringe our right to travel?
    wasn't the line at the time that they would be there only until the road was paid for? it surely must be paid by now.
    whats going on?

    The M3 and the non-completion of the Navan railway. There’s a story in plain view but once the yoke was built all the protestors and all the journalists lost interest in it.

    “Forget it Jake, it’s Chinatown”


  • Registered Users Posts: 917 ✭✭✭ gjim


    I'm wondering what Dunkerque-Bordeaux would be so. Reason being we drove Paris-Bordeaux and I don't think we were far off €100, just toll after toll. One of them seemed to be on a pay per km basis. The driver asked if I had money for the toll so I handed over a €50 note. I was aghast when not only was I given no change but asked if I had any more money since the toll came to about €60.
    You can check it out on this toll calculator - says 56.20 for Paris to Bordeaux. Now that's expensive for 560km of motorway. At that rate it'd be 24 euro for Cork to Dublin.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 26 ✭✭✭ coredev123


    I remember getting a fright in France after a toll for an approx. 90 minutes on the motorway cost about €15. I don't think we have it too bad here with the tolls tbh.

    Happened to me too. One of my friends was about to press the button for 'help', to say there was a mistake. It's insane over there, whereas we pay something like €2.60.


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