How are the tolls legal, and why are they still there?

epicmoe

Does it not infringe our right to travel?
wasn't the line at the time that they would be there only until the road was paid for? it surely must be paid by now.
whats going on?

harr

epicmoe wrote: »

Does it not infringe our right to travel?
wasn't the line at the time that they would be there only until the road was paid for? it surely must be paid by now.
whats going on?

You don’t have to use toll roads if you don’t want to plenty of alternative routes but if you want the quicker option then we don’t have much options available unfortunately. Most other countries have tolls same as here but my thinking is that surely the tax we pay for our cars should cover cost of roads and upkeep of roads.

salmocab

epicmoe wrote: »

Does it not infringe our right to travel?
wasn't the line at the time that they would be there only until the road was paid for? it surely must be paid by now.
whats going on?

Not suggesting it’s why we have them but on both the east link and west link if we got rid of them it would cause a disaster on the roads. The m50 especially.

laotg

epicmoe wrote:

Does it not infringe our right to travel? wasn't the line at the time that they would be there only until the road was paid for? it surely must be paid by now. whats going on?

Right to travel isn't something quoted in the Irish constitution, other than right to travel between this state and another. You may be getting mixed up with the US Constitution.

That aside, we are not being prevented from travelling by a toll, there are many alternatives if we don't want to pay a toll.

gjim

epicmoe wrote: »

Does it not infringe our right to travel?
wasn't the line at the time that they would be there only until the road was paid for? it surely must be paid by now.
whats going on?

Where did you get the notion there's a right to travel for free? You pay to travel regardless of the mode.

Roads are never "paid for" - motorways are expensive to maintain.

Del2005

Wait till they get us in EVs and every road will be a toll road as they will have to make up for the motor tax and fuel duties lost, it'll cost you more to drive during rush hour also. Big brother will be with you in the car.

Victor

The M50 cost €3.5 billion to build, not including maintenance.

cdaly_

harr wrote: »

my thinking is that surely the tax we pay for our cars should cover cost of roads and upkeep of roads.

It should but it's woefully inadequate. I don't have numbers to hand but motor tax probably pays for less than 25% of the cost of roads, pollution etc. The rest comes out of general taxation and EU structural funds.

magicbastarder

i know i'm kinda joining a pile on here, but even if you assumed your 'right to travel', this would in no way imply a right to drive.
to drive, you need to prove competence to drive, be insured, have a roadworthy car, etc.
the motorways are even more restricted than other roads in the criteria you need to meet, so if anywhere there was not a right to travel, it'd be motorways.

also, IIRC the toll operators are operating under a 25 year (maybe longer) licence to run the tolls due to the PPP nature of the motorways. it's not about whether the roads have been paid for or not, it's about the contract by which they agreed to participate in the PPP.

thomond2006

I remember getting a fright in France after a toll for an approx. 90 minutes on the motorway cost about €15. I don't think we have it too bad here with the tolls tbh.

cdaly_

thomond2006 wrote: »

I remember getting a fright in France after a toll for an approx. 90 minutes on the motorway cost about €15. I don't think we have it too bad here with the tolls tbh.

Are you sure that was a car toll? I had an experience where the car, with roofbox and bicycles on top was detected as a truck by the auto toll booth. I missed it on one occasion and got charged a lot but remembered to press the assistance button on other occasions and the remote operator reset the toll to the correct value.

Podge_irl

thomond2006 wrote: »

I remember getting a fright in France after a toll for an approx. 90 minutes on the motorway cost about €15. I don't think we have it too bad here with the tolls tbh.

Driving Geneva - Milan you end up paying about €70 worth of tolls (assuming you take the tunnel).

magicbastarder

thomond2006 wrote: »

I remember getting a fright in France after a toll for an approx. 90 minutes on the motorway cost about €15. I don't think we have it too bad here with the tolls tbh.

don't they apply speeding fines to toll tickets in france? or is that an urban legend?

Victor

cdaly_ wrote: »

Are you sure that was a car toll?

French tolls are very high, so it could be.

gjim

Podge_irl wrote: »

Driving Geneva - Milan you end up paying about €70 worth of tolls (assuming you take the tunnel).

I remember playing around with the French toll calculator and thinking I found the most expensive motorway trip: Dunkirk to Monaco - 107 euro in tolls. Irish tolls are relatively inexpensive - if they charged as much as in France, Limerick to the M50 would cost 17 euro.

Markcheese

Why would a person have a right to travel across private land without permission... (not that I enjoy paying tolls)
As to how this fits in with the "only guards, lollipop ladies and livestock herders allowed stop traffic" I haven't a clue...

normanoffside

I drove from Barcelona to Valencia and got charged €50 for Tolls. Cost more than the car rental. Should have just go the train.

Seth Brundle

Victor wrote: »

French tolls are very high, so it could be.

I'd somewhat disagree. They may sound expensive but they cover long distances so in my experience proportionally they are generally cheaper than tolls here.
Plus they are worth it if you're having to drive a few hundred kms.

Deagol

cdaly_ wrote: »

Are you sure that was a car toll? I had an experience where the car, with roofbox and bicycles on top was detected as a truck by the auto toll booth. I missed it on one occasion and got charged a lot but remembered to press the assistance button on other occasions and the remote operator reset the toll to the correct value.

Just back from France yesterday. Drove Nice to Marseille and back - tolls each way €17.90. Distance about 180km each way.

Was talking to French guy and they have no road/motor tax like we have, no annual charge other than 2 yearly NCT.

More polluting cars are taxed higher at time of purchase (I think our VRT works similarly).

Also, their fuel is more heavily taxed. Litre of diesel was €1.67 near Nice airport. Petrol €1.59.

I think I prefer our system - driving in France would definitely cost more unless you avoid the motorways!

Billgirlylegs

Victor wrote: »

The M50 cost €3.5 billion to build, not including maintenance.

Not doubting your good self, but I would imagine that number was plucked from the same area as that from which they got the cost of "the new childrens hospital"

I'd hazard a guess that over 20 odd years, two different currencies, private enterprise involvement and the usual sophisticated and farseeing planning, there is no chance of anyone getting within an asses roar of calculating it.:D:)

Billgirlylegs

magicbastarder wrote: »

i know i'm kinda joining a pile on here, but even if you assumed your 'right to travel', this would in no way imply a right to drive.
to drive, you need to prove competence to drive, be insured, have a roadworthy car, etc.
the motorways are even more restricted than other roads in the criteria you need to meet, so if anywhere there was not a right to travel, it'd be motorways.

also, IIRC the toll operators are operating under a 25 year (maybe longer) licence to run the tolls due to the PPP nature of the motorways. it's not about whether the roads have been paid for or not, it's about the contract by which they agreed to participate in the PPP.

That was how they were built originally - East Link in 1981 and West Link(single carriageway E/W in 1991.
Remember the hold ups on M50 Toll booths.
They were removed and NPR introduced when the State took ownership ( for a hefty fee). All the rip off fees on the badly built, badly designed, non motorway (100kph) auxiliary lane, extended slip road crappy M50 go to Government coffers

ongarboy

epicmoe wrote: »

Does it not infringe our right to travel?
wasn't the line at the time that they would be there only until the road was paid for? it surely must be paid by now.
whats going on?

Shock horror - State company Irish Rail is charging me 70 euro to travel return from Dublin to Tralee on state owned railway tracks - is that infringing my right to travel? Dublin Bus is charging me 3 euro to travel from Blanchardstown to city centre on state owned roads - another infringement, right?:rolleyes::rolleyes:

How is paying for something infringing on a right. I've a right to eat and drink therefore should Dunnes and Tesco give me my food and drink for free?

Your logic is seriously flawed OP!

n!ghtmancometh

Should be a congestion charge inside the canals too. Cars are a massive waste of scarce road space, 1 full bus = 90 single passenger cars. Arrogance of car owners to believe they have an automatic divine right to the space.

Carawaystick

Deagol wrote: »

I think I prefer our system - driving in France would definitely cost more unless you avoid the motorways!

Its EUR 3.10 for 3.7km on a motorway in west Dublin,
thats about 90c/km

Idleater

Carawaystick wrote: »

Deagol wrote: »

I think I prefer our system - driving in France would definitely cost more unless you avoid the motorways!

Its EUR 3.10 for 3.7km on a motorway in west Dublin,
thats about 90c/km

By that logic it's the same 3.10 to get all the way to Waterford by motorway, so you can reduce your cont per km massively by continuing all the way.

fullstop

Idleater wrote: »

By that logic it's the same 3.10 to get all the way to Waterford by motorway, so you can reduce your cont per km massively by continuing all the way.

Exactly, completely ridiculous logic.

Victor

Carawaystick wrote: »

Its EUR 3.10 for 3.7km on a motorway in west Dublin,
thats about 90c/km

Gormanston to Gorey is also €3.10, about 2c/km. https://www.google.com/maps/dir/53.64609,-6.2509821/52.632943,-6.37259/@53.2212781,-6.5453205,8z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0

Naas to Grannagh is free. https://www.google.com/maps/dir/53.2352536,-6.6332111/52.2845746,-7.1509418/@52.7388181,-7.5189838,9z

CrabRevolution

gjim wrote: »

I remember playing around with the French toll calculator and thinking I found the most expensive motorway trip: Dunkirk to Monaco - 107 euro in tolls. Irish tolls are relatively inexpensive - if they charged as much as in France, Limerick to the M50 would cost 17 euro.

I'm wondering what Dunkerque-Bordeaux would be so. Reason being we drove Paris-Bordeaux and I don't think we were far off €100, just toll after toll. One of them seemed to be on a pay per km basis. The driver asked if I had money for the toll so I handed over a €50 note. I was aghast when not only was I given no change but asked if I had any more money since the toll came to about €60.

Lord Glentoran

epicmoe wrote: »

Does it not infringe our right to travel?
wasn't the line at the time that they would be there only until the road was paid for? it surely must be paid by now.
whats going on?

The M3 and the non-completion of the Navan railway. There’s a story in plain view but once the yoke was built all the protestors and all the journalists lost interest in it.

“Forget it Jake, it’s Chinatown”

gjim

CrabRevolution wrote: »

I'm wondering what Dunkerque-Bordeaux would be so. Reason being we drove Paris-Bordeaux and I don't think we were far off €100, just toll after toll. One of them seemed to be on a pay per km basis. The driver asked if I had money for the toll so I handed over a €50 note. I was aghast when not only was I given no change but asked if I had any more money since the toll came to about €60.

You can check it out on this toll calculator - says 56.20 for Paris to Bordeaux. Now that's expensive for 560km of motorway. At that rate it'd be 24 euro for Cork to Dublin.

coredev123

thomond2006 wrote: »

I remember getting a fright in France after a toll for an approx. 90 minutes on the motorway cost about €15. I don't think we have it too bad here with the tolls tbh.

Happened to me too. One of my friends was about to press the button for 'help', to say there was a mistake. It's insane over there, whereas we pay something like €2.60.

CrabRevolution

gjim wrote: »

You can check it out on this toll calculator - says 56.20 for Paris to Bordeaux. Now that's expensive for 560km of motorway. At that rate it'd be 24 euro for Cork to Dublin.

We must have taken the scenic route so, as it was more than €56. It also included a tolled tunnel in Paris which doesn't seem to be in the route suggested by that planner.

Carawaystick

Idleater wrote: »

By that logic it's the same 3.10 to get all the way to Waterford by motorway, so you can reduce your cont per km massively by continuing all the way.

If you are going to complain about the cost of high tolls on motorways in France and ignore the free motorways on a motorway fire ahead.
Most journeys between J6-7 on the M50 are a lot shorter than to Waterford, which is not connected to Dublin by motorway in any case

tjhook

cdaly_ wrote: »

It should but it's woefully inadequate. I don't have numbers to hand but motor tax probably pays for less than 25% of the cost of roads, pollution etc. The rest comes out of general taxation and EU structural funds.

I have seen similar statements in the past, but never the figures behind them. I think all motoring-related taxes need to be considered.

Using 2018 figures:

Cars in Ireland: 2,500,000
Spending on roads: €930,000,000
Road Spending per car: €363.60

Health costs per car over its lifetime: £7,714. This is a report from a UK university - I'm not sure how objective it is, but let's take it at face value and assume it also applies to Ireland.
Annualised over 12 years: approx. €724

Assuming an average car drives 16000km per annum, at 12km/l, that driver is paying approx. €1144 in tax on fuel per year.

I'm not sure what the average motor tax is in Ireland, but €280 is in the middle of the bands and seems reasonable to use.

An Avensis 18.l costs €30k, of which VAT and VRT comes to €12600. Assuming the car has a life of 12 years, this works out to €1050 per year.

Assuming an average car insurance bill of €500 per year, the insurance levy adds €25

I haven't included taxes on servicing, parking, NCT, tolls etc, but they would presumably add to the motoring-related taxes.


That adds up to road and health costs of €1087 per car per year, with motoring-related taxes of €2499 per car per year. We can quibble over the details, but I think drivers more than cover all costs relating to driving.

amcalester

Your health cost figure is only pollution associated costs, it’s ignores all other motoring related health costs.

How much was spent on the 146 fatalities in 2018 or the 825 serious injuries in 2015 (no figures for 2018)?

How much is spent on obesity related costs of which increased car usage is a contributing factor.

The RAC commissioned a report in 2012 that states

Road use generates costs which are borne by wider society instead of the motorist.

Link

Geuze

tjhook wrote: »

I have seen similar statements in the past, but never the figures behind them. I think all motoring-related taxes need to be considered.

Using 2018 figures:

Cars in Ireland: 2,500,000
Spending on roads: €930,000,000
Road Spending per car: €363.60

Health costs per car over its lifetime: £7,714. This is a report from a UK university - I'm not sure how objective it is, but let's take it at face value and assume it also applies to Ireland.
Annualised over 12 years: approx. €724

Assuming an average car drives 16000km per annum, at 12km/l, that driver is paying approx. €1144 in tax on fuel per year.

I'm not sure what the average motor tax is in Ireland, but €280 is in the middle of the bands and seems reasonable to use.

An Avensis 18.l costs €30k, of which VAT and VRT comes to €12600. Assuming the car has a life of 12 years, this works out to €1050 per year.

Assuming an average car insurance bill of €500 per year, the insurance levy adds €25

I haven't included taxes on servicing, parking, NCT, tolls etc, but they would presumably add to the motoring-related taxes.


That adds up to road and health costs of €1087 per car per year, with motoring-related taxes of €2499 per car per year. We can quibble over the details, but I think drivers more than cover all costs relating to driving.

You can't presume that VAT on cars or fuel should be earmarked for roads.

If that was the case, how would we pay for healthcare, education, etc.?

You should include just the following:

VRT
Excise on fuels
Motor tax

Geuze

epicmoe wrote: »

wasn't the line at the time that they would be there only until the road was paid for? it surely must be paid by now.

Do landlords stop charging rent once the building is "paid for"?

tjhook

amcalester wrote: »

Your health cost figure is only pollution associated costs, it’s ignores all other motoring related health costs.

How much was spent on the 146 fatalities in 2018 or the 825 serious injuries in 2015 (no figures for 2018)?

How much is spent on obesity related costs of which increased car usage is a contributing factor.

The RAC commissioned a report in 2012 that states

Link

I'd assume that much of the costs associated with accidents etc are covered by car insurance?

The link you provide is interesting, but its point is that tolls would reduce congestion in the UK. It doesn't (that I can see) say that motoring-related taxes are insufficient to cover the costs. In fact, it says that tolling could reduce other motoring taxes. The quote "Road use generates costs which are borne by wider society instead of the motorist." does not preclude other motoring taxes from being larger. The article is comparing fuel duties to the costs of the journeys traveled.

Either way, if each motorist in Ireland generates €1500 for the state after road costs and pollution related concerns, that's enough to covers a hell of a lot of other things.

Geuze wrote: »

You can't presume that VAT on cars or fuel should be earmarked for roads.

I don't. I just don't see evidence that motorists impose a financial burden on the state. In fact, it looks to me that drivers are generating funds for the state to fund a lot of other spending.

But if we want to talk about only the roads, and remove VAT, then we should compare like with like. Also remove the other costs that are funded by the VAT.

Road spending: €363 per car per year.
Motor tax + VRT: Approx. €1000 per car per year.
Oops, miscalculation. Motor tax + VRT: Approx. €755 per car per year.

Victor

Fundamentally, motoring fails to pay the whole costs it imposes, especially environmental costs, health costs and congestion costs.

tjhook wrote: »

I have seen similar statements in the past, but never the figures behind them. I think all motoring-related taxes need to be considered.

Taxes are not an admission fee, they are policy measures to discourage a behaviour or to redistribute excess income. Additionally, your choice of what should/shouldn't be included is rather selective.

tjhook wrote: »

Using 2018 figures:

Cars in Ireland: 2,500,000

How many are taxed? Not every vehicle is a car.

tjhook wrote: »

Spending on roads: €930,000,000

I suspect that is only spending on national roads and not spending on regional and local roads (95% of the road network and about 50% of the spending).

Road Spending per car: €363.60

Hence this number seems to be doubly wrong.

tjhook wrote: »

Health costs per car over its lifetime: £7,714. This is a report from a UK university - I'm not sure how objective it is, but let's take it at face value and assume it also applies to Ireland.
Annualised over 12 years: approx. €724

As mentioned, it is only one cost to the health service.

tjhook wrote: »

Assuming an average car drives 16000km per annum, at 12km/l, that driver is paying approx. €1144 in tax on fuel per year.

Not all taxes on fuel go to the state. The EU has a call on some of the import duties and VAT. The NORA levy goes to the National Oil Reserves Agency, which exists for the benefit of fuel users.

tjhook wrote: »

I'm not sure what the average motor tax is in Ireland, but €280 is in the middle of the bands and seems reasonable to use.

You include the cost of motor tax, but don't include the expenditure by local authorities on roads from the Local Government Fund (part funded by motor tax), LPT, rates, etc.

tjhook wrote: »

An Avensis 18.l costs €30k, of which VAT and VRT comes to €12600. Assuming the car has a life of 12 years, this works out to €1050 per year.

Again, the EU has a call on some of the import duties and VAT.

tjhook wrote: »

Assuming an average car insurance bill of €500 per year, the insurance levy adds €25

The insurance levy exists for the benefit of insured people. The Motor Insurers' Insolvency Compensation Fund has had to be topped-up by people who don't need insurance.

tjhook wrote: »

That adds up to road and health costs of €1087 per car per year, with motoring-related taxes of €2499 per car per year.

Your numbers seem to be quite off.

tjhook wrote: »

We can quibble over the details, but I think drivers more than cover all costs relating to driving.

But what about all the other state expenses on topics you haven't mentioned? Education, justice, defence, payment of debt interest?

tjhook wrote: »

I'd assume that much of the costs associated with accidents etc are covered by car insurance?

The costs of the road users, (usually) yes. The costs to the state, no.

whatever99

salmocab wrote: »

Not suggesting it’s why we have them but on both the east link and west link if we got rid of them it would cause a disaster on the roads. The m50 especially.

Why would it cause a disaster? Cars would start speeding, as no need to slow down for the toll?

Victor

whatever99 wrote: »

Why would it cause a disaster?

Tolls suppress demand. Fewer tolls mean more driving and more congestion.

Cars would start speeding, as no need to slow down for the toll?

Do you slow down for the toll-booth-free toll on the M50?

tjhook

Victor wrote: »

Additionally, your choice of what should/shouldn't be included is rather selective.

This is fine, I was addressing the posts that said things like "motorways are expensive to maintain" and "The M50 cost €3.5 billion to build, not including maintenance".

As in my post above, what is included in calculations is fine once it's consistent. If we're talking about wider costs (e.g. health) then the wider taxation of motoring should be considered too. If we're only talking about the road costs, then a narrower set of motoring taxes may be relevant.

Victor wrote: »

Not every vehicle is a car.

Yes. However, I don't see how that changes any point. All (or nearly all?) vehicles pay tolls, and the other taxes/fees. And impose some cost on the state.

Victor wrote: »

I suspect that is only spending on national roads and not spending on regional and local roads (95% of the road network and about 50% of the spending).

Perhaps, but I can only go by the figures I see. The site I linked describes how the state spends its budget in any given year.

Edit: Article showing total road (including local) expenditure of €474m in 2017.

Victor wrote: »

Not all taxes on fuel go to the state. The EU has a call on some of the import duties and VAT. The NORA levy goes to the National Oil Reserves Agency, which exists for the benefit of fuel users.

I didn't know that. But I can't see it making much of a dent in the big picture.

Victor wrote: »

Taxes are not an admission fee, they are policy measures to discourage a behaviour or to redistribute excess income.

There's very little to disagree with in that statement. If the argument for tolling is that we need to change behaviour or redistribute more money from drivers, that is a valid point hat can be debated on its own merits. I just disagree with the seemingly widespread belief that motorists aren't paying their way, or that tolls are needed to fund road maintenance. I have yet to see Irish figures supporting such claims, and want to try to bring some objective figures to it.

dowlingm

gjim wrote: »

You can check it out on this toll calculator - says 56.20 for Paris to Bordeaux. Now that's expensive for 560km of motorway. At that rate it'd be 24 euro for Cork to Dublin.

That's one way to push people towards using trains etc. though especially when you look at how much France has invested in the TGV system... IE's fares don't look as bad when you have to pay as you use on the motorway!

Dravokivich

Geuze wrote: »

You can't presume that VAT on cars or fuel should be earmarked for roads.

If that was the case, how would we pay for healthcare, education, etc.?

You should include just the following:

VRT
Excise on fuels
Motor tax

I was under the impression that all tax just got thrown into the same bucket, regardless of its source? If it's still the case, its label doesn't really matter at the end of the day. You're arguing over pennies.

Geuze

Dravokivich wrote: »

I was under the impression that all tax just got thrown into the same bucket, regardless of its source? If it's still the case, its label doesn't really matter at the end of the day. You're arguing over pennies.

Yes, most taxes are not earmarked, correct.

Although, motor tax and LPT are paid to local councils.

However, one can still do an exercise to compare motoring taxes with expenditure on roads.

Geuze

Geuze wrote: »

Do landlords stop charging rent once the building is "paid for"?

Do you continue to pay a mortgage, once it is paid for?
Give the state ownership angle that mortgage analogy is more applicable, as they are owned by the people using them

donvito99

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Do you continue to pay a mortgage, once it is paid for?
Give the state ownership angle that mortgage analogy is more applicable, as they are owned by the people using them

Everybody paid for the road's construction, but you ought to pay for causing congestion. Same as electricity, water, A&E etc.

tjhook

donvito99 wrote: »

Everybody paid for the road's construction, but you ought to pay for causing congestion. Same as electricity, water, A&E etc.

There is an argument for congestion charging. However, most tolls are on motorways around the country where congestion is not an issue. If anything, the tolls encourage drivers to divert to urban areas where congestion is already a problem.

The tolls may once have paid for the building of roads, but once the road is paid for, they're just a handy income stream. Same as any other levy that is left in place long after its original raison d'etre has ceased to be.

I have a car but mostly use public transport, so it would suit me better for the costs to shift from "static" costs (e.g. motor tax, VRT) to pay-by-use. But the current system is a hodge-podge that makes little sense.

Geuze

tjhook wrote: »

I have a car but mostly use public transport, so it would suit me better for the costs to shift from "static" costs (e.g. motor tax, VRT) to pay-by-use. But the current system is a hodge-podge that makes little sense.

Correct.

Fixed costs like VRT and motor tax should be reduced/reformed, and more pay-by-use taxes increased.

Geuze

Geuze wrote: »

Correct.

Fixed costs like VRT and motor tax should be reduced/reformed, and more pay-by-use taxes increased.

Sure, if the objective is to move people away from more efficient modes of transport to private cars

magicbastarder

i've been known to opine many times that if cars had transparent fuel tanks people would be a lot more conscious of the impact of driving.
the analogy of popping to the shops every two or three weeks for 50 litres of milk is not accurate, as that's basically just flavoured water.
it's more akin to buying 50 litres of butter.