Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

El_Duderino 09

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

... Eddie Jones took an uncapped 7s player to the World Cup. But maybe Irish rugby would be too conventional to do anything like that?
...

That's a really interesting selection. I completely agree about fardy. Great player for leinster but they dont really need him anymore - and all the loyalty and appreciation in the world doesn't count for anything.

England took an uncapped player to the world cup hit Ireland would never dream of doing that. The best hooker in Ireland during the world cup was an uncapped Ronan Kelleher.

Ireland is desperately conservative with selection. Connor Murray being out of form and John Cooney being in much better form wasn't enough to make Ireland consider playing Cooney in the six nations. Instead they have to go through this drawn out rigmarole of persisting with Murray who's form doesn't improve, then play the in form player in the least important game against Italy. Then the argument continues because Cooney only played well against a poor Italy team so we have to play Murray in the next game against France.

Covid came along and Cooney has lost form and suddenly the argument changes to to being all about playing the form player - "we have to play Murray because Cooney has lost form". We treat new players like they're d1ckheads who can't be trusted and are terrified of dropping an established player in case they can't handle the rejection and crumble.

It's set up to favour the established player and disadvantage the up and coming player

Exclamation Marc

Fardy was consistently excellent throughout his 17 appearances last season, being in the Pro14 Team of the Year showed that in the league alone. He played a significant part in us being unbeaten for all but one game (one ironically he wasn't involved in).

He gives more than just his own physical performance on the pitch and his influence when captain and the younger heads around him is invaluable.

This short memory and sudden discarding of players has a very soccer feel to it. Calling him "over the hill" did give me a laugh though.

El_Duderino 09

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Fardy was consistently excellent throughout his 17 appearances last season, being in the Pro14 Team of the Year showed that in the league alone. He played a significant part in us being unbeaten for all but one game (one ironically he wasn't involved in).

He gives more than just his own physical performance on the pitch and his influence when captain and the younger heads around him is invaluable.

This short memory and sudden discarding of players has a very soccer feel to it. Calling him "over the hill" did give me a laugh though.

Yeah but they don't need him NOW. I don't have a short memory. I said he had been a great player for leinster but they don't need him now because they have other players who have all the talent and need the game time. I wouldn't play him for even one extra game out of sentimentality. That's just not what it's about.

Also the line about what he brings to the dressing room and all that stuff has been worn out on me. If they bring so much to the dressing room and they teach the younger players so much, then hire them as a consultant coach.

Exclamation Marc

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah but they don't need him NOW. I don't have a short memory. I said he had been a great player for leinster but they don't need him now because they have other players who have all the talent and need the game time. I wouldn't play him for even one extra game out of sentimentality. That's just not what it's about.

Also the line about what he brings to the dressing room and all that stuff has been worn out on me. If they bring so much to the dressing room and they teach the younger players so much, then hire them as a consultant coach.

OK so they did need him last season but don't need him now. Three games after they did need him? One of which the scrum entirely fell apart. Hmmmmm. Now I'm not saying Fardy was the reason we lost that scrum that day but he may have made some difference.

And being an on field leader is something that has been talked about by every on field professional since time began. For all the incredible ability our young players have, they're lacking in experience, nous and even engaging with the officials, which is something that we'll be lacking when the internationals are away.

You're talking like Fardy has been putting in sub-par performances below what we've seen from our back row this year, which simply isn't true. When did Fardy become a sentimentality pick??

Burkie1203

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ireland is desperately conservative with selection. Connor Murray being out of form and John Cooney being in much better form wasn't enough to make Ireland consider playing Cooney in the six nations. Instead they have to go through this drawn out rigmarole of persisting with Murray who's form doesn't improve, then play the in form player in the least important game against Italy. Then the argument continues because Cooney only played well against a poor Italy team so we have to play Murray in the next game against France.

Covid came along and Cooney has lost form and suddenly the argument changes to to being all about playing the form player - "we have to play Murray because Cooney has lost form".

JGP and Marmion are selected on Merit. Their recent form 100% warrants that. McGrath not getting selected is the right call too

Then the third 9 is a toss up between two players. Murray has some credit in his favour. Cooney has none. He should have been given more of a chance much sooner but it's just unfortunate how that played out. IMO Cooney should have been starting in the 6n this year.

His recent form was crap to the point He was dropped by his provincial coach for a Pro14 final for a near 35 yr old journey man as a result of his early season form.

Murray will probably start v Italy and France but I think he should be the 9 to miss out if Marmion and JGP are both fit.

El_Duderino 09

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

OK so they did need him last season but don't need him now. Three games after they did need him? One of which the scrum entirely fell apart. Hmmmmm. Now I'm not saying Fardy was the reason we lost that scrum that day but he may have made some difference.

And being an on field leader is something that has been talked about by every on field professional since time began. For all the incredible ability our young players have, they're lacking in experience, nous and even engaging with the officials, which is something that we'll be lacking when the internationals are away.

You're talking like Fardy has been putting in sub-par performances below what we've seen from our back row this year, which simply isn't true. When did Fardy become a sentimentality pick??

He's a sentimentality pick once people start talking about "what he brings to the dressing room" rather then what he brings to the pitch on match day. And posts above suggest that's happening.

For all the incredible ability our young players have, they're lacking in experience, nous and even engaging with the officials - so they need game time.

Leinster went on an unbeaten streak last year but they don't need to fear losing a few games this year. They might need fardy in the champions cup games if there are injuries from the international period. So I haven't suggested letting him go mid season.

I'd much prefer to give the younger players game time and experience, let them learn nouse and let a new captain learn to deal with the ref through experience rather than letting fardy do it.

Let fardy coach the younger players in how to do those things but let the players learn by doing it for themselves on match day.

sydthebeat

Amazing how people can conjure up a problem that does not exist

El_Duderino 09

Burkie1203 wrote: »

JGP and Marmion are selected on Merit. Their recent form 100% warrants that. McGrath not getting selected is the right call too

Then the third 9 is a toss up between two players. Murray has some credit in his favour. Cooney has none. He should have been given more of a chance much sooner but it's just unfortunate how that played out. IMO Cooney should have been starting in the 6n this year.

His recent form was crap to the point He was dropped by his provincial coach for a Pro14 final for a near 35 yr old journey man as a result of his early season form.

Murray will probably start v Italy and France but I think he should be the 9 to miss out if Marmion and JGP are both fit.

Yeah I agree with all that. We switch from talking about "credit in the bank" for an old established player like Murray to picking on form for Cooney. Cooney had no "credit in the bank" because he didn't get picked when he was on great form and Murray was on poor form. But Cooney is dropped from the squad when his form dipped.

The Irish team talk great game about picking on form but in reality they talk about it so much because they don't do it. There's a great line from Yes Minister where they were devising a new policy and Humphrey tells the minister to put with the part the didn't want to do as part of the title. He said it did much less harm.in the title than in the content. He called it the law of inverse action - the less you intend to do about something the more you should talk about doing it. Ireland SAY they are going to pick on form but they only have to keep talking about how they're going to pick on form because they don't actually do it.

Murray will start all the games in the foreseeable future. Shur, he has all the credit in the bank so his form isn't important and as long as they never pick anyone else then that will always be the case.

What it comes down to is the fact that no.9 used to be a strong position for Ireland back when Murray was on great form. Now he's not on good form, he's not a running threat, his box kicks aren't as good or as important to the game, and his pass is delayed. The other options won't be as big an advantage as Murray was when he was on form and instead of just picking the best option for the time (pick.on form) they pick based on "credit in the bank". In other words they're picking Murray in 2020 hoping that Murray from 2017 shows up.

Guinness RFC

The difference between Dunne and Fardy is like night and day. Playing Dunne is like throwing a teddy bear into a lion ring. I know there is a need to develop players for the future but Dunne is a bit part player filling holes until Deeny and McCarthy come through. He is a fine lad but not a professional rugby player. He has the physique but not the coordination athleticism and bite to be a professional second row. I would say he would struggle at AIL level never mind Pro14. Of course this judgement is coming from what I know and have seen of the player but I don’t think he has the ferocity required to be a good pro second row.

OneLungDavy

Guinness RFC wrote: »

The difference between Dunne and Fardy is like night and day. Playing Dunne is like throwing a teddy bear into a lion ring. I know there is a need to develop players for the future but Dunne is a bit part player filling holes until Deeny and McCarthy come through. He is a fine lad but not a professional rugby player. He has the physique but not the coordination athleticism and bite to be a professional second row. I would say he would struggle at AIL level never mind Pro14. Of course this judgement is coming from what I know and have seen of the player but I don’t think he has the ferocity required to be a good pro second row.

People said the same thing about a 25 year old Toner. Granted, I have not seen much of him but I like to think he can improve, he's already half way there with his size attributes.

FrannoFan

Guinness RFC wrote: »

The difference between Dunne and Fardy is like night and day. Playing Dunne is like throwing a teddy bear into a lion ring. I know there is a need to develop players for the future but Dunne is a bit part player filling holes until Deeny and McCarthy come through. He is a fine lad but not a professional rugby player. He has the physique but not the coordination athleticism and bite to be a professional second row. I would say he would struggle at AIL level never mind Pro14. Of course this judgement is coming from what I know and have seen of the player but I don’t think he has the ferocity required to be a good pro second row.

are we throwing out the "shiny new thing" for two other "shiny new things" before the "shiny new thing" has even had a chance to lose his shine?

we have hit peak message board

salmocab

I coach the u6s one lad is quite tall and stocky everyone is a place holder until after his leaving cert.

Guinness RFC

FrannoFan wrote: »

are we throwing out the "shiny new thing" for two other "shiny new things" before the "shiny new thing" has even had a chance to lose his shine?

we have hit peak message board

He’s not a shiny new thing. He was a below average to bad player growing up. He’s only there because of his stats. He hasn’t even been asked by his coaches to shake off his south side politeness and manner in all his time playing in Michaels. He is still a “nice guy”.. Not good enough for pro level. I hope he reads this and proves me wrong but he has a way to go before he’s up to the required standard IMO.

molloyjh

FrannoFan wrote: »

are we throwing out the "shiny new thing" for two other "shiny new things" before the "shiny new thing" has even had a chance to lose his shine?

we have hit peak message board

We're so over that already. The "he's too nice a guy" shtick is peak message board now.

Dog Botherer

Guinness RFC wrote: »

He’s not a shiny new thing. He was a below average to bad player growing up. He’s only there because of his stats. He hasn’t even been asked by his coaches to shake off his south side politeness and manner in all his time playing in Michaels. He is still a “nice guy”. Not good enough for pro level. I hope he reads this and proves me wrong but he has a way to go before he’s up to the required standard IMO.

FrannoFan

Guinness RFC wrote: »

He’s not a shiny new thing. He was a below average to bad player growing up. He’s only there because of his stats. He hasn’t even been asked by his coaches to shake off his south side politeness and manner in all his time playing in Michaels. He is still a “nice guy”.. Not good enough for pro level. I hope he reads this and proves me wrong but he has a way to go before he’s up to the required standard IMO.

What stats would those be? his height stats?

he has 180 minutes for Leinster so far across 7 appearances, so which of those 7 appearances and limited minutes helped you make your mind up on him?

Guinness RFC

FrannoFan wrote: »

What stats would those be? his height stats?

he has 180 minutes for Leinster so far across 7 appearances, so which of those 7 appearances and limited minutes helped you make your mind up on him?

I meant height weight etc.

Bazzo

Hahaha holy ****

Paul Smeenus

You know that bit in Being John Malkovich where John Malkovich goes through the doorway to his own head and everyone he meets has his own face?

Like that, but with Leinster fandom.

Buer

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

You know that bit in Being John Malkovich where John Malkovich goes through the doorway to his own head and everyone he meets has his own face?

Like that, but with Leinster fandom.

You're peculiar enough to fit in here. Welcome.

Now, serious business, what school did you go to?

hirondelle

Guinness RFC wrote: »

He’s not a shiny new thing. He was a below average to bad player growing up. He’s only there because of his stats. He hasn’t even been asked by his coaches to shake off his south side politeness and manner in all his time playing in Michaels. He is still a “nice guy”.. Not good enough for pro level. I hope he reads this and proves me wrong but he has a way to go before he’s up to the required standard IMO.

Maybe all aspiring Leinster players should be directed here and you make predictions on how they will fare based on your laser sharp assessments- it would certainly save these guys from wasting their time at the rugbying when they have proven beyond doubt that they're not up to it.

Guinness RFC

hirondelle wrote: »

Maybe all aspiring Leinster players should be directed here and you make predictions on how they will fare based on your laser sharp assessments- it would certainly save these guys from wasting their time at the rugbying when they have proven beyond doubt that they're not up to it.

I’m not the only one to point out Leinster were below standard at times most recently in the Benetton game. Most supporters support. I give my assessment based on my experience and insight into the game. That involves criticism. It makes it less boring than groupthink and gives rise to differing viewpoints.

thomond2006

I wish Munster were below standard like Leinster are.

bayern

Guinness RFC wrote: »

The difference between Dunne and Fardy is like night and day. Playing Dunne is like throwing a teddy bear into a lion ring. I know there is a need to develop players for the future but Dunne is a bit part player filling holes until Deeny and McCarthy come through. He is a fine lad but not a professional rugby player. He has the physique but not the coordination athleticism and bite to be a professional second row. I would say he would struggle at AIL level never mind Pro14. Of course this judgement is coming from what I know and have seen of the player but I don’t think he has the ferocity required to be a good pro second row.

this is laughable.. Dunne was playing well at AIL level for trinity as a 19 year old.

As a 20 year old he came off the bench for Leinster against Benetton and was excellent in 44 minutes action:

28 tackles
1 lineout steal
2 lineout wins
1 breakdown turnover pen
3 carries
1 offload

pickarooney

bayern wrote: »

this is laughable.. Dunne was playing well at AIL for trinity as 19 year old.

As a 20 year old he came off the bench for Leinster against Benetton and was excellent in 44 minutes action:

28 tackles
1 lineout steal
2 lineout wins
1 breakdown turnover pen
3 carries
1 offload

How polite was he though? Did he ask permission before stealing/borrowing those lineouts?

bayern

recent A game versus Ulster A, Murray Kinsella reported:

Jack Dunne has been impressive for Leinster. He definitely looks bigger than the 112kg he's listed at. Has been powerful in contact.

Jack Dunne with some punchy tackles and clearouts early on.

Jack Dunne with a lovely offload to send Peter Dooley over for the score.

bayern

pickarooney wrote: »

How polite was he though? Did he ask permission before stealing/borrowing those lineouts?

"Please sir, do you mind if I steal this lineout?"

Guinness RFC

bayern wrote: »

this is laughable.. Dunne was playing well at AIL level for trinity as a 19 year old.

As a 20 year old he came off the bench for Leinster against Benetton and was excellent in 44 minutes action:

28 tackles
1 lineout steal
2 lineout wins
1 breakdown turnover pen
3 carries
1 offload

That’s fine. You think he has what it takes to be a good pro I believe he doesn’t. 28 tackles is a big figure but the making of a player doesn’t come down solely to stats in one game. I believe he is soft. It is a shortcoming I believe he has as a player and that will resurface time and again against better competition. I’m happy to be proven wrong but I don’t think I will be in the long run.

Guinness RFC

bayern wrote: »

recent A game versus Ulster A, Murray Kinsella reported:

Jack Dunne has been impressive for Leinster. He definitely looks bigger than the 112kg he's listed at. Has been powerful in contact.

Jack Dunne with some punchy tackles and clearouts early on.

Jack Dunne with a lovely offload to send Peter Dooley over for the score.

Roux is a powerful player but many on here don’t rate him. Dunne although possibly powerful is uncoordinated and cant channel it in the right direction unlike Roux. I think Murray is being his usual positive self towards youngsters.