Energy infrastructure

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121314772#Comment_121314772

Turlough Hill holds 2.3 million tonnes of water with a height differential of 283 meters. That's the sort of scales involved.

Water is a lot cheaper than stone or concrete. Digging a pit a quarter of a kilometre deep isn't trivial either.

There's similar schemes using railway wagons on very steep slopes and LOTS of gravel.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121314772#Comment_121314772

Here is the catch, courtesy the ESB:

The little black dot represnts Turlough Hill. The blue bit represents how much energy storage the ESB believes would be required to achieve net zero using renewables.

Hydro schemes amount to appalling environmental destruction. They seem to be a one way street, as I can'r recall of hearing of a dam being removed and the ruined landscape rehabilitated.

Hydro schemes are outrageous acts of environmental vandalism.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121315742#Comment_121315742

Silvermines and other pumped storage are good for a few hours at best, we have recently experienced dunkelflauts that last 6 weeks.

KrisW1001

we have recently experienced dunkelflauts that last 6 weeks.

You’re really going to have to provide data to back up “we”, “recently” and “6 weeks” in that sentence.. and the use of the plural.

Also, I don’t see how a discharge time of 1 year is required for any energy storage system - maybe the text explains it: do you have a direct source URL for the document containing that diagram?

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121321173#Comment_121321173

2021 is recent:

https://youtu.be/Xwxc31zhL8Y?feature=shared&t=418

The diagram is also contained within this video.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121321173#Comment_121321173

The image comes from this youtube video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xwxc31zhL8Y&t=421s&ab_channel=EngineersIreland

A lot of the content from it seems to get misunderstood or misrepresented or twisted, depending on which angle is chosen by any given poster. Its worth a watch though, lots of good stuff in it.

The energy storage image she shows is for 59 days of energy storage. This is energy for all uses though so this is not just electricity.

The 6 weeks he is referring to also comes from that video, its a period in 2021.

I did an analysis on it previously which you can view at the post below, basically showing that there is no such thing as no wind i.e. low wind does not equal no wind and even low wind will still produce a lot of power, the level of which will increase exponentially as we develop offshore.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667470#Comment_120667470

Even during periods of low wind, we will still have solar, interconnectors and so on. We need storage, sure, but not as much as some would lead you to believe

ted1

Here’s a good report by ESB which looks at all technologies and asses it’s to see what stage of commercialisation it’s at.

and how viable it is : https://cdn.esb.ie/media/docs/default-source/innovation/emerging-technology-insights-2023.pdf?sfvrsn=b0dca3ef_0

getoutadodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121323163#Comment_121323163

Txs for this great document.....pretty comprehensive. At first cursory glance I picked up the following:

Geothermal wont (understandably) work in Ireland but interesting that ESB HQ building has a localised project beneath.

I saw no reference under the Storage Options to Hydro. Wonder why. No reference to Silvermines? Or did I misread it?

AD biogas is stalled despite the compatability with the Agri sector (we're drowning in slurry) and GNI now ever more dependent on imports from Norway. The Mitchelstown project has been pushed out to 2025. Nimbyism mentioned and Govt failure to commit. Wonder if this is a political decision...i.e not till the next election is over? Basically a do nothing policy. No LNG terminal and no green light for expansion of Corrib and AD stalled.

ESB hoping Moneypoint Hydrogen derived from off shore wind will be the silver bullet.

KrisW1001

The ESB's own geothermal plant may be the reason why they don't consider it as a viable answer for the country. There's nothing like doing a thing if you want to learn about it. However, geothermal has been suggested as an option for other large campuses to reduce heating demand.

No reference to Silvermines because it's a private project, not operated by ESB. For hydro in general, Ireland is probably too flat - even our uplands don't have big differences in height, and I suspect any site that was suitable for hydro has already been exploited - it's not new technology.

LNG is a stopgap, to address insecurities in the supply of fossil fuels. The longer term goal is to break our dependence on fossil fuels, and make those insecurities irrelevant to our energy production.

kippy

This may have been addressed many times so apologies if so.

I keep hearing that solar PV has a payback on an individual domestic install of anywhere between 5 and 10 years and that is it of immense value to the property owner. Unfortunately no everyone can get solar PV installed as they either aren't a property owner or don't have the upfront finances to do it.

As such, based on payback time, the fact that not everyone benefits from it and economies of scale that are surely much much more beneficial at state level, why aren't we seeing more and more state and government owned buildings getting kitted out in solar PV or indeed why aren't we seeing vast solar farms getting built nationally.

Surely this is a very 'smart' way to spend state money on energy infrastructure?

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121324154#Comment_121324154

It’s happening at the moment. Several solar farms in late stage of planning or construction. We’ve some online.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121325079#Comment_121325079

Is the state or bodies of the state building these facilities?

What about state buildings?.surely there's capacity for gigawatts of cheap energy here?

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121326379#Comment_121326379

some are IPP, Some are ESB.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/esb-and-bord-na-mona-to-build-major-solar-power-farm-in-kildare/a346103154.html

ESB and Bord Na Móna to build major solar power farm in Kildare

https://www.solarfeeds.com/mag/biggest-solar-projects-in-ireland/

schools are due to get some, but at the end of the day the cheapest way to do it is with dedicated solar farms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121326379#Comment_121326379

It's coming

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/government-to-have-solar-panels-put-on-every-school-under-new-plans-1367501.html

Birdnuts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121323626#Comment_121323626

The problem with the proposed AD model for here is that it is based on growing grass for digestion and not waste residues - which makes it inherently non-sustainable for the same reasons as must biofuels.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121324154#Comment_121324154

100%.

Domestic solar is great but in terms of "bang for your buck" large scale solar is much better.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121326783#Comment_121326783

Yes, but remember, if I put solar panels on my roof, I am counting pay-back at retail prices per kWH, whereas a commercial enterprise will be measured in terms of wholesale rates.

Big difference.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121324154#Comment_121324154

What you hear may not be true.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/26/solar-power-payback-takes-much-longer-than-you-think

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121327114#Comment_121327114

One advantage of domestic solar is it changes the behaviour of the household.

They become more careful with energy use. Using appliances during the day, buying more energy efficient appliances.

Tracking energy use on an app becomes a "game". Or a challenge/puzzle.

So it has unquantifiable benefits.

But in terms of "economies of scale", solar farms are much better.

KrisW1001

@cnocbui You may as well have given data for Botswana.. after all, they speak English there too.

Payback time depends on government grants, costs of installs and the average cost of electricity in the market. The United Kingdom, being a foreign country, has different values for all three of these factors, and so the calculations there do not apply here. In Ireland, where there are higher grants and higher energy costs, payback is indeed 5-10 years, ignoring feed-in payments. (Batteries are the one element that can hugely extend that time, if you buy capacity that never gets used)

"Payback time" is largely irrelevant to government anyway, as government infrastructure spending is plannned on the basis of decades, not years.

Markcheese

Schools having solar is s bit odd , they use least energy in summer/early autumn ,

Theyre closed for 2 to 3 months , so the main idea will be selling energy to the grid ?

Unless they go with those giant sand heat batteries- but then ,fund the batteries and get electricity to charge the batteries from where-ever .. night rate,solar ect ..

I'm waiting for pictures of a school after putting solar on a roof in permanent shade,

Bobeagleburger

They'll build up tons of credit during the summer and will have less bills during the winter months. Nothing wrong there.

Plus they are putting green energy back into the grid.

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121330874#Comment_121330874

Although it would be more efficient to do it at scale in dedicated solar farms, would there be fewer planning delays to deploy on existing school buildings.

Individual schools would only be concerned about their own business cases, but the state could incentivise it via grants. A lot of schools are single-storey buildings, with a large pitched roof.

Cookiemunster

There is no planning required to install solar panels on schools, so yes there would be fewer delays than building a solar farm.

Sam Russell

Also, the whole project could be run by a state organisation that is independent of the schools, where energy produced goes directly to the grid, while school gets the energy at reduced/fixed cost, and gets a rent for the roof space used.

The ESB could be the appropriate body.

Sam Russell

I check the Eirgrid dashboard from time to time.

They have been importing energy consistently for months t a level of bout 10% or more of a grid requirement.

Is there a reason for this? Is it cheaper to import, or is it necessary because a lack of generating capacity, or are they trying to preserve a Corrib gas?

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121331041#Comment_121331041

Solar farms are typically on greenfield sites that have other uses.

You will find few other uses for a school roof though - it is nigh on unusable, except in this case.

orangerhyme

Does anyone know about putting solar on a field of slightly less than an acre?

Does it require planning permission?

KrisW1001

I suspect that larger schools would have a fairly direct connection to the nearest 10 kV substation, if that isn’t actually on site. That more direct link to the Medium Voltage network would make feed-in generation much easier to manage than the typical house with solar panels on top.

But this isn’t really about reducing the energy bills for a single school, but rather reducing the energy use of the entire public sector: there are lots of government buildings, and they all use electricity - once you realise that all of the solar arrays installed by the State would be used to offset all of the electricity used by the State, it makes sense.

The guy from UrbanVolt who criticised this plan made a bit of a fool of himself. He doesn’t seem to have realised that schools aren’t independent businesses: this isn’t two hundred schools all trying to get an individual feed-in agreement from ESB Networks; it’s one very large electricity customer (the Department of Education) asking for feed-in at two hundred of its sites.

The energy security review is complete and has been released

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/5c499-energy-security-in-ireland-to-2030/

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121368353#Comment_121368353

Taking a glance through the documents, these seem to be the highlights:

• No change to our 2030 goals, all in on renewables, solar and onshore and offshore wind.
• Big increased focus on interconnectors, not only deliver the new Greenlink and Celtic Interconnectors, but they want to build more beyond that, more to France and Britain, but also look at options to Spain/Belgium/Netherlands.
• Short term strategic gas reserve. It seems it will be up to the minister to announce a decision on this by Q2 2024, by they seem to be suggesting using a Floating LNG terminal (FSRU) to do this.
• Long term storage reserve. In the long term they want to move away from the above FSRU and replace it with a long term permanent solution. One that can store both gas in the short term, but renewable gas and hydrogen in the long term. They seem to want to look at reopening the gas storage at Kinsale to do this. Though leave the door open for other options too like salt caverns.
• In order to help with the last point, GNI is seeking to take ownership of the inch pipeline in Kinsale from it’s current owners who were about to start to decommission it.

No surprises really. Extra interconnectors will be very welcome, the FSRU is a necessary short term “evil”, reopening Kinsale reserve makes a lot of sense, should never have been closed IMO.