Personal Security on Dart trains.

Sam Russell

There is an article in today's IT.

Dart nightmare: ‘I was trapped, stuck and scared’
‘They wondered aloud what I would look like with no clothes ... blowing smoke in my face’

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/dart-nightmare-i-was-trapped-stuck-and-scared-1.3881714

They got on at Dún Laoghaire, just as the carriage doors were hissing to a close.

The silence was instantly pierced by animated voices, foul language and music blaring from a smartphone. Four of them, in their twenties, young men with bags of beer and attitude.

Despite the carriage being virtually empty they purposefully strode in my direction and took the three remaining places in my four-seater.

Their friend took up residence in a seat across the aisle, lounging back against the window, legs askew as he lit a cigarette and cracked opened a can.

I was hemmed in, and despite feeling acutely uneasy, I summoned up a relaxed expression and stared out the window, determined not to reveal my growing anxiety.

This occurred in the middle of the day.

This is alarming and needs to be tackled.

1: How many and how often do Revenue Protection staff or security staff make their presence known on the Dart?

2: Why do IR persist in running eight coach sets in non-busy times, when even a two coach set would not be full? Four coach sets should be the norm on most Darts with the obvious exception of 7am to 10 am and 4:40pm and 7pm. Currently, the 82000 sets run 6 coach, and the later ones run 8 coach sets nearly full time. It must be costly to do this, because they need more maintenance, and use more electricity. Also, they do not have enough carriages to do this anyway.

3: They need a Transport Police who have the powers of Gardai when on transport property, or nearby, and on duty, and would also do the RP work as well as security.

I am appalled by this report.

Stephen15

I would imagine it is quicker and easier to continue running 8 car Darts throughout the day than it is to be be uncoupling and recoupling trains after peak hours. I'm not denying it happens but I use public transport regularly and never have a problem apart from sometimes loud annoying groups of teenagers but this is more of a nuisance than anything else.

Obivously it's different in rougher areas like the DART north of Connolly through the likes of Howth Junction and Kilbarrack, the Luas Red Line or the 13, 27 or 40 bus. Maybe I've been lucky but I don't witness serious anti-social on public transport.

Pawwed Rig

Stephen15 wrote: »

Obivously it's different in rougher areas like the DART north of Connolly through the likes of Howth Junction and Kilbarrack, the Luas Red Line or the 13, 27 or 40 bus. Maybe I've been lucky but I don't witness serious anti-social on public transport.

The report was from Dunlaoighre which is a long way south of Connolly.
Just scumbags being scumbags OP. There is no appetite to change it as it doesn't affect the people that matter.

devlinio

I've been getting the DART nearly everyday weekday since 2014. I've had my ticket checked twice on the DART itself, and maybe 5 times before the ticket barrier. It's rare.

This has been at various times throughout the years ranging depending on college and then work. So I would have been getting on the DART at a good range of times over the course of the 5 years.

Stephen15

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

The report was from Dunlaoighre which is a long way south of Connolly.
Just scumbags being scumbags OP. There is no appetite to change it as it doesn't affect the people that matter.

I am aware of that and anytime I have taken a bus or DART to or from Dun Laoghaire I haven't had a problem it is not exactly a high risk area especially on an off peak train in the middle of the day. Even if there was a transport police, Gardai or more private security personal there they wouldn't be on every train and issues could still happen.

Pawwed Rig

So what have you seen in the 'rougher areas' that justify your comments above?

Stephen15

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

So what have you seen in the 'rougher areas' that justify your comments above?

Well only look at the DB website as an example the same routes being pulled out of the same areas on a nightly basis.

Pawwed Rig

The thread is about trains and I don't recall buses ever being cancelled from Kilbarrack or Howth Junction. Tallaght and Ballymun are the only ones that immediately spring to mind and Ballymun was some years ago.

Del.Monte

The DART has no 'social' barriers and passes through rough spots northside and southside. I have seen people shooting up on the DART and it was near leafy Blackrock.

Transport police needed and now!

turbowolfed

I don't see why they can't establish a service to text the train and carriage number to when experiencing anti-social behaviour on the DART like they do on the LUAS.

Just as a side note. In my experience as a woman, I've run into several instances of trouble at different places on the line, North and Southside, the most recent being a fairly posh-sounding older man who sat in the same seat as me on an otherwise empty carriage coming from Greystones, and he kept touching my legs and making lewd comments. I was scared given the length of time it takes between Greystones and Bray I would be stuck in this carriage for quite some time. When i stood up to move he groped me between the legs and laughed but thankfully didn't follow me. Of course, when I got off at Shankill, the station was unmanned as usual and I wasn't able to report the incident to anyone. It is ridiculous people can find themselves in situations like that without help.

Stephen15

I'm not denying there is anti social behaviour on the Dart I'm just saying I don't it's as big an issue as some like to make out or maybe I've just been lucky. I do think a text service should be introduced like the Luas and perhaps security and revenue patrols to increase but don't support some of the ideas proposed by some which sound more like a kneejerk reaction than anything else.

Drumpot

turbowolfed wrote: »

I don't see why they can't establish a service to text the train and carriage number to when experiencing anti-social behaviour on the DART like they do on the LUAS.

Just as a side note. In my experience as a woman, I've run into several instances of trouble at different places on the line, North and Southside, the most recent being a fairly posh-sounding older man who sat in the same seat as me on an otherwise empty carriage coming from Greystones, and he kept touching my legs and making lewd comments. I was scared given the length of time it takes between Greystones and Bray I would be stuck in this carriage for quite some time. When i stood up to move he groped me between the legs and laughed but thankfully didn't follow me. Of course, when I got off at Shankill, the station was unmanned as usual and I wasn't able to report the incident to anyone. It is ridiculous people can find themselves in situations like that without help.

That’s terrible, I’m sorry to hear that.

I’d be curious to know what responsibilities dart has to its passengers safety in this sort of scenario. Surely a passenger has a right to be protected on some level on public transport? Any sort of deterreant would be a start (like texting service) , it’s not good enough that this continues unaddressed.

If you had of reported it , I wonder if you could take a case against them. Unfortunately there’s not two sh*ts given about doing the right thing in this country unless somebody is either hurt/killed, forced or substantially financially penalized for doing the wrong thing.

NasserShammaz

Trains,Buses anywhere anytime any street do what you like because there are no consequence s in Ireland for anything piss away a 100 billion of tax payers money grand job...stab someone with a blood filled syringe .. run along you little scamp .... rack up 100 convictions...oh addressing your ISSUES are you ok suspended sentence.

The SCUM at the top and the SCUM at the bottom all feeding of the mugs in the middle....


THE ONLY CONSEQUENCES FOR ANY KIND OF CRIME IN IRELAND BIG OR SMALL ARE SUFFERED BY THE VICTIMS .

Sam Russell

Stephen15 wrote: »

I would imagine it is quicker and easier to continue running 8 car Darts throughout the day than it is to be be uncoupling and recoupling trains after peak hours.

If 4 coach trains are the norm, then the only change is during the busy times. The coupling and uncoupling is not an onerous task, given the trains are designed for it.

If the carriages are busy, then the obnoxious behaviour described becomes rarer as the other passengers will react to support the victim.

Equally, if there are security staff patrolling some trains, the likelihood is that this type of behaviour will be reduced because tickets will be checked and bad behaviour will be reported to those staff. Having your ticket checked on the Dart is a rarity. If it was common, the trouble makers would try somewhere else or better still, behave themselves.

I once saw a group of teenage girls take a black marker and write (or daub) on the carriage, for no obvious reason. They got off at Bray and avoided the ticket barriers, watched by some Dart drivers who said and did nothing.

I think more travelling security staff is what is needed. Preferably a Transport Police with real legal authority to curb this antisocial behaviour.

strandroad

turbowolfed wrote: »

I don't see why they can't establish a service to text the train and carriage number to when experiencing anti-social behaviour on the DART like they do on the LUAS.

Just as a side note. In my experience as a woman, I've run into several instances of trouble at different places on the line, North and Southside, the most recent being a fairly posh-sounding older man who sat in the same seat as me on an otherwise empty carriage coming from Greystones, and he kept touching my legs and making lewd comments. I was scared given the length of time it takes between Greystones and Bray I would be stuck in this carriage for quite some time. When i stood up to move he groped me between the legs and laughed but thankfully didn't follow me. Of course, when I got off at Shankill, the station was unmanned as usual and I wasn't able to report the incident to anyone. It is ridiculous people can find themselves in situations like that without help.

If you wanted to report him to the Gardai they can pull CCTV from the carriage. Just saying. Plenty of creeps out there, it might help to threaten them with CCTV if you're ever in a similar situation (hopefully not).

strandroad

Stephen15 wrote: »

I am aware of that and anytime I have taken a bus or DART to or from Dun Laoghaire I haven't had a problem it is not exactly a high risk area especially on an off peak train in the middle of the day. Even if there was a transport police, Gardai or more private security personal there they wouldn't be on every train and issues could still happen.

You are lucky, or perhaps not seen as a target. I witnessed some incidents similar to the article or this poster's story above. Outside of peak hours addicts also like to use the southside Dart for a roundtrip to Greystones which I suppose gives them comfortable time to shoot up and nap.

clemop

I get the DART daily and I've never seen an issue in the morning travelling from Clontarf to Blackrock. However during the summer, the return journey regularly features gangs drinking, playing music on phones and generally being obnoxious, with early afternoon being prime time. I've seen security once in the last 6 years.

There is actually a number to call if there is trouble. I called it once when a drunk on the opposite platform wouldn't stop verbally abusing and hassling two girls waiting there. The 'helpline' told me to talk to the station staff. When I pointed out that I was calling the number because there were no station staff around, they seemed at a complete loss.

whisky_galore

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think more travelling security staff is what is needed. Preferably a Transport Police with real legal authority to curb this antisocial behaviour.

Gardai have "real legal authority" but repeat and juvenile offenders still run rings around them. How would a Transport Police perform any better given these circumstances?

Pawwed Rig

There are no consequences to bad behaviour so why would it stop?

Sam Russell

whisky_galore wrote: »

Gardai have "real legal authority" but repeat and juvenile offenders still run rings around them. How would a Transport Police perform any better given these circumstances?

Gardai have plenty of important work to do, and are prioritised by management. There certainly needs to be more Gardai and their deployment needs to be made more effective. I am reminded of the Garda Sergent, who on being told that the number of Gardai at his station was being reduced because there were not needed because of the low crime rate, said - 'But if I didn't have them, then I'd need them' by which he meant the local crime rate was low because of the full compliment of Gardai.

A transport police would have less to distract them and so would concentrate on antisocial behaviour and fare evasion. Their mere presence would have a good effect on the problem.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

There are no consequences to bad behaviour so why would it stop?

Well, the courts are another problem that needs addressing, and the inability of the prisons to cope is yet another problem.

However, the system has to do what it can, and a Transport Police would help. It is by their regular presence that they will deter the nasties, and will get to recognise them before they cause any problems. That in itself would be a significant improvement.

n!ghtmancometh

Nothing happened to the sheltered auld wan in the article but she felt the need to compose an article about it anyway. Has she ever been on the underground after a football match in London, a deserted Bronx subway car in NY or the Metro in LA when two factions are warring? all those cities have transport police by the way, and ****e still happens. It's reality of life in a city. Head forward, earphones in, mind your own business.

To the poster who was groped; report that to your local Gardai no matter how long ago this awful incident happened. Darts have good CCTV coverage and the perv could be identified as it's likely you aren't the first person they've tried this on with. Guards take this sort of stuff very seriously.

Stephen15

What is intimidating to one person may not be intimidating to others. Some peop,e are intimidated by large groups of teenagers even if they are aren't doing anything nefarious. Some people are intimidated by the mere presence of people drinking alcohol in public.

Sam Russell

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

Nothing happened to the sheltered auld wan in the article but she felt the need to compose an article about it anyway.

Stephen15 wrote: »

What is intimidating to one person may not be intimidating to others. Some peop,e are intimidated by large groups of teenagers even if they are aren't doing anything nefarious. Some people are intimidated by the mere presence of people drinking alcohol in public.

The article, taken at face value, suggests that the female is not an 'aul one' but a young woman. She was threatened by talk of how she would look naked, and it could be judged assaulted by one of the young males impeding her exit from the seat.

I think any young female would be intimidated by the behaviour described. The fact they were smoking and drinking, both prohibited, would reinforce the idea that she was intended to feel the intimidation.

How can anyone defend such behaviour?

NasserShammaz

whisky_galore wrote: »

Gardai have "real legal authority" but repeat and juvenile offenders still run rings around them. How would a Transport Police perform any better given these circumstances?

True but if they can claim because of their age that they can't be prosecuted and are therefor not responsibile then untill they are 18 their parents shoild be held responsible and fines should be issued to them. Now a large percentage of these arseholes parents wouldn't give a **** and are just like their kids but id say about 30/40% of anti social behaviour is done by little ****ers whose parents would go nuts on them if they knew how their little darlings were goin on and once the parents know all a lot of this would be taken out of the system and resources spent on the real scum.

This of course depends on the courts doing their jobs and Irish rail bearing their responsibility to their passengers.

A transport police with real powers of arrest and detain , courts taking this kind of behaviour and it's effect on the victims seriously, first offences dealt with properly to send a clear message and no more poverty defence in courts as mitigation unless all previous convictions can also be introduced to mitigate in favour of a custodial sentence.

And absolutely no ****in suspended sentences for show in remorse, addressin your issues oe pleading guilty

loyatemu

she said in the article she was afraid to take her phone out so I'm not sure what help an emergency number would have been - there are buttons in each carriage to contact the driver, the best advice is probably move to another carriage and use the intercom.

I agree though with many of the points above, ticket inspection is next to non-existent, & we need a proper transport police. (I haven't seen much of IÉ's private security squad recently either).

Stephen15

Look even if there had of been extra security, revenue protection or even a transport police in existence the incident could have still happened they may not have been on the train which she was on. Even on the Luas with much more regular security and RPU patrols and a text line in existence there is still anti social behaviour that goes on. It's a bit like saying there should have been Guards standing in close proximity the time I was <<insert crime>>ed it's simply not practical.

Hal3000

The Gardai cannot protect us anymore never mind protecting us on trains. I don't blame them I blame every judge in this country who suspends / or let's thugs out uncharged in our legal system. Thank God this woman is ok, but rest assured if she was assaulted and these guys were caught. It would be letters from mammy, a lovely young lad, bright future and a light slap on the wrist / boys will be boys pathetic sentence. Country is a kip now.

Atlantic Dawn

Unless those committing crimes on public transport are either incarcerated or have fines of a weeks wages/dole per offence there's no point in having it gold star policed by 10 security personnel per carriage.

Stephen15

Hal3000 wrote: »

The Gardai cannot protect us anymore never mind protecting us on trains. I don't blame them I blame every judge in this country who suspends / or let's thugs out uncharged in our legal system. Thank God this woman is ok, but rest assured if she was assaulted and these guys were caught. It would be letters from mammy, a lovely young lad, bright future and a light slap on the wrist / boys will be boys pathetic sentence. Country is a kip now.

I wonder how many people who are charged with these crimes and then say they have a bright future ahead of them actually go on to have a bright future?

John_Rambo

Stephen15 wrote: »

I'm not denying there is anti social behaviour on the Dart I'm just saying I don't it's as big an issue as some like to make out or maybe I've just been lucky. I do think a text service should be introduced like the Luas and perhaps security and revenue patrols to increase but don't support some of the ideas proposed by some which sound more like a kneejerk reaction than anything else.

You haven't been lucky. You're like me. Male, healthy and probably streetwise!

I, like you, have never been targeted on the DART, but two years ago I had no choice but to put myself between three pre-teen girls and a two drunk lecherous creeps on the DART from Howth. I'm no fighter, but what was going on wasn't acceptable, ass and breast groping, pawing and general abuse. I pretended I knew the girls, they had the cop-on to play along with the act and between speaking schoolboy Irish (abusers weren't Irish) and general nods and body language got them off at Sutton Cross and got the next train to Kilbarrack.

The two lads would have overpowered me easily, they rough as f**k, big & gnarly but they were drunk and taken aback from my role play and alleged familiarity with the kids. All ended well, but it could have played out worse.

Metro-police and transport-police needed drastically for the capital.

Stephen15

I've seen a few intimidating/undesirable looking characters on public transport over the years but I've never seen any bring harm on me or any of my fellow passengers. Of course for a woman on her own or an older person they may fear these undesirables but you can't really prosecute them just for their looks.

I personally don't think a transport police would do much more than the Gardai do right now to prevent crime and anti social behaviour on public transport. If the scum see transport police on a train they'd probably just wait for the next one to cause trouble.

It would seem some of these incidence are spontaneous aswell especially if they are happening on off peak and in areas that wouldn't be assoicated with high levels of anti social behaviour so they wouldn't all nessecarily fall victim to undercover sting operations.