Is third level (and further) education over-rated?

I know you'd probably be deemed mad and irresponsible by some people not to encourage your children to go to college or university, because it's usually an entry requirement to any employment providing a comfortable wage.

Leaving aside that one practicality, what is the value of formal tertiary education in its own right?

Have you ever noticed that a lot of the people who are most curious about the world, who are often very avid readers over a wide breadth of topics, have no third-level education? I know older people with huge stores of knowledge about agriculture, botany, climate, politics, the arts etc, with no formal education in those topics. And many graduates (like myself) who are mostly clueless about them.

I wonder whether third level education, as it is currently designed, tends to stunt our curiosity about life beyond our own narrow focus of study? Or perhaps graduates wear their degrees as some kind of formal academic accolade which requires no further effort after graduation, whereas the informal learner never deems his (or her) efforts complete.

Is this a trend you've ever observed? Maybe there's some kind of cognitive bias at work here, but I've noticed too many dullards with college degrees, and too many intelligent, academically-minded people without degrees, for it to be just a coincidence.

KikiLaRue

Nope, can't say I've noticed that.

Plenty of my friends have gone on from third level to Masters and PhDs and retain their thirst for knowledge and curiosity about how the world works.

Many of my friends who chose not to go to college ended up regretting it, and going back in their late 20s to get a qualification.

All that said, college isn't for everyone, and we should certainly encourage those with talents in the trades to pursue other routes including apprenticeships.

EmmetSpiceland

I certainly wouldn’t be recommending my children do any “wishy-washy” courses such as arts (humanities), film studies, art history or anything like that.

I just won’t be party to encouraging them to waste 3, or even 4, years sitting around doing very little of anything that’s actually useful.

KikiLaRue

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

I certainly wouldn’t be recommending my children do any “wishy-washy” courses such as arts (humanities), film studies, art history or anything like that.

I just won’t be party to encouraging them to waste 3, or even 4, years sitting around doing very little of anything that’s actually useful.

When AI advances to the point where it can take over most of the techy jobs, creative professions are said to be among the least likely to be at risk of automation.

riffmongous

I knew some very intelligent older people who simply never had the opportunity to go to university, in fact my own father had to leave education at 14 to work but never lost his interest in knowledge and it paid off on us thanks to the changes in the education system.

But that was a much older generation, I can't say I've noticed it so much among the younger and the middle aged. Also talking about dullards with degrees.. it really depends on the degree. There is a huge variation among degree disciplines and what is their focus and requirements, of course people studying ecology or astrophysics will be more likely to be curious about life than IT or whatever

Gimme A Pound

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

I certainly wouldn’t be recommending my children do any “wishy-washy” courses such as arts (humanities), film studies, art history or anything like that.

I just won’t be party to encouraging them to waste 3, or even 4, years sitting around doing very little of anything that’s actually useful.

Ah the arts degree depends on the subjects - and they can do a more practical postgrad. Big difference between someone with a philosophy and sociology degree compared to someone with an English and geography (or other teaching subjects) degree and business postgrad.

Art history is probably a pre requisite to work in a gallery.

But yeah, film studies...

OneOfThem Stumbled

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

I certainly wouldn’t be recommending my children do any “wishy-washy” courses such as arts (humanities), film studies, art history or anything like that.

I just won’t be party to encouraging them to waste 3, or even 4, years sitting around doing very little of anything that’s actually useful.

I hope you don't encourage them to do a wishy-washy course like science either. What use is Physics, huh? :rolleyes:

Plenty of wishy-washy people do courses because they believe that going to third level is "the thing to do", and they choose what they think is the easiest subject because they want an easy time. The courses themselves aren't to blame for this.

Less forgivable is that Irish universities are becoming like American universities, treating students like babies, and not believing that students should be allowed fail or dropout if they aren't suited to a particular course. At least American universities have the excuse that they are predominantly doing it for the money!

EmmetSpiceland

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

I certainly wouldn’t be recommending my children do any “wishy-washy” courses such as arts (humanities), film studies, art history or anything like that.

I just won’t be party to encouraging them to waste 3, or even 4, years sitting around doing very little of anything that’s actually useful.

I think the Humanities have a bad reputation precisely because people with low CAO points use it as an excuse to go to university and do something, anything, as a rite of passage.

Humanities courses are ten-a-penny because they're so cheap to run compared to scientific and engineering disciplines, and in truth most humanities courses should have their numbers cut dramatically to accommodate those students with genuine interest in such pursuits.

I certainly wouldn't call the humanities 'wishy-washy' or useless. In fact that kind of utilitarian attitude is one of the biggest problems with how we approach third-level studies, whereby education is pursued as a proxy for status and wealth, not learning for the sake of learning.

riffmongous wrote: »

I knew some very intelligent older people who simply never had the opportunity to go to university, in fact my own father had to leave education at 14 to work but never lost his interest in knowledge and it paid off on us thanks to the changes in the education system.

But that was a much older generation, I can't say I've noticed it so much among the younger and the middle aged.

Yes, there's certainly a strong variation along age lines. But then, I'm not sure if that's because gifted people once had little prospect of further studies, or because they've just had longer to hone their wisdom than young people have had.

Of the younger people I know who didn't study at third level, they may not be experts in a wide variety of fields just yet, but they often have a very novel way of approaching problems, and a curiosity about things that, frankly, I envy.

Of course there are plenty of exceptions, there are plenty of dopes without degrees who stand on street corners and don't know whether it's breakfast or Tuesday. I'm mainly talking here about non-college-educated people with some focus and drive in them.

Gimme A Pound

They didn't say science is wishy washy.

And they're right about film studies.

CelticRambler

Over-rated? On the contrary. Now that second-level education has been dumbed down to become a box-ticking exercise and glorified baby-sitting service, third-level gives the next generation at least some chance of a proper education, and learning that some things are done "that way" for a reason, and some are only done "that way" because we haven't yet figured out a better/different way.

I do take your point about some people knowing all kinds of things on all kinds of subjects, but that's more of a comment on individuals, rather than society in general, and probably more to do with people leading a more urban lifestyle than in previous times. If you've been reared in an environment where your food comes in bottles and jars from the supermarket, and your furniture comes flat-packed from Ikea, having - or not having - a third level education won't help you understand how to grow blackcurrants and turn them into jam, or how to make a set of bunk beds from scrap timber.

CrankyHaus

Third level education is overrated in Ireland and the English speaking world. While it is essential for many jobs it is unnecessary for many others. It is wasteful to push people into years of study of subjects of nebulous value just so they can get an Office job in an unrelated area where they never use what they learned. It's a huge con on the public perpetrated by a mercenary and American influenced vested interest.

Third level education should be free, but limited entry for subjects in which there is less employment demand. With limited places Arts subjects would have the high points requirement and prestige they deserve, rather than being seen as a three year piss up by someone who didn't know what they want to do.

EmmetSpiceland

sugarman wrote: »

I know plenty of lads that left school after their junior certs and went down that route ...going on to be top Mechanics, Electricians, Fitters etc.. and most of them are on mega money working for themselves.

Same for me, s.

Now, to be fair, a number of them are now living abroad as they had to move away for work but while I was in college these lads would have been finished their apprenticeships, owning their own cars and going off on “lads” holidays a few times a year.

I have to laugh when I hear, repeatedly, on the radio that people “look down” on trades or that “no one wants to do an apprenticeship” when it was incredibly difficult to get one back then.

Your Face

Depends on a lot of factors OP.
Plenty of Humanity degree holders go into gainful employment. If an employer has a trainee programme - a degree of any type will be a plus point.

Regarding people with no qualifications:
I had a few technicians working for me at one stage. The best by far was a fella who was doing the job for years. He had a wealth of knowledge and could turn his hand to anything. Engineers always consulted with him on projects. He had no formal qualifications. He has since left to get his MechEng degree. He knows that technical employers will rarely hire someone with no degree or even a trade. A technical degree isnt seen as proof you can do the job, it's more a licence to do the job.

Nigel Fairservice

I wouldn't say university is overrated. I have a degree and masters in an arts related subject but have never used the subject in my employment. It was more about the skills you pick up along the way. Critical thinking, interpreting and condensing information, that type of thing. These things I use every day at work. I'm not saying you need a university education to acquire these skills but it definitely helps.

If I had my own kids I'd probably be more open to them not going to college than my parents would have with me. My parents are of an age where everyone their age who went to college got a job (that's not the case anymore) and that I should definitely go too because I had the opportunity. I think that would have been the mindset of many people my parent's age.

take everything

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I know you'd probably be deemed mad and irresponsible by some people not to encourage your children to go to college or university, because it's usually an entry requirement to any employment providing a comfortable wage.

Leaving aside that one practicality, what is the value of formal tertiary education in its own right?

Have you ever noticed that a lot of the people who are most curious about the world, who are often very avid readers over a wide breadth of topics, have no third-level education? I know older people with huge stores of knowledge about agriculture, botany, climate, politics, the arts etc, with no formal education in those topics. And many graduates (like myself) who are mostly clueless about them.

I wonder whether third level education, as it is currently designed, tends to stunt our curiosity about life beyond our own narrow focus of study? Or perhaps graduates wear their degrees as some kind of formal academic accolade which requires no further effort after graduation, whereas the informal learner never deems his (or her) efforts complete.

Is this a trend you've ever observed? Maybe there's some kind of cognitive bias at work here, but I've noticed too many dullards with college degrees, and too many intelligent, academically-minded people without degrees, for it to be just a coincidence.

I read a book a week me.
Seriously though, you're basically right. Education is more like indoctrination nowadays tbh.

And that's coming from someone who has a masters.

Dawido

I've Bachelor Degree in Soft Development imo what i've learned in 4 years i could've learned in 1 year that's my only complain about 3rd level education. You are dependent on the type of lecturer you are given, i suppose it would be nice if there was some other system where you just have to learn stuff when you want and take an exam when you want, then you are given the degree instead of having to wait 4 years....

sk8erboii

Humanities isnt wishy washy. Ive noticed it myself, people who did arts degrees have the most social connections and best soft skills.

Lo and behold, guess whose gonna get promoted next week? That guy who was in the same class as his supervisor and manager.

Aside from that, subjects like history and music are absolutely crucial for humanity. Id sooner give up computer science for musicians and historians

Dawido

Dawido wrote: »

I've Bachelor Degree in Soft Development imo what i've learned in 4 years i could've learned in 1 year that's my only complain about 3rd level education.

Yeah, that's ridiculous too. In theory, all undergraduate honours-degree holders are educated to the same level (the mysterious Level 8), and it almost always takes 4 years to attain whether it's for a Bachelor's degree in The Bleedin' Obvious or Theoretical Physics.

The only explanation for why higher-education institutions operate in this way seems to be financial. Why give someone a degree in 'Culinary Arts' (DIT) in two years, when you can stretch it out to four? Why extend Philosophy programs to five or six years, when it isn't financially valued, so lets just give them the same four years as most degrees.

It's a nonsense, and undermines the basic task of a university, which is to educate students to a level of fluency and competence in their chosen field.

These days, I think most higher-education institutions think their primary role is to generate funding for rankings.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Have you ever noticed that a lot of the people who are most curious about the world, who are often very avid readers over a wide breadth of topics, have no third-level education?

That doesn't hold true for me at all. All the people I know who are "avid readers over a wide breadth of topics" are university educated.

LirW

Good thread, I'm currently at a crossroad because I'm looking for work, have a level 6.
See, the field I want to work in (and already have some practical experience) has a few different pathways to get into but even in you reach a certain level of qualification, which is possible without a degree, even though you have the same level of knowledge or practical experience about the subject, you'll always be behind someone who studied the subject in university. Like there are many multinational companies that have a policy to not hire people without degree from a certain level on.
If I want to reach a certain level I honestly don't see any other way than biting the bullet and get a degree.

The thing is third level isn't for everyone and in some cases it's more of a perseverance exercise than creating the big minds of the future. I know really smart people that went all the way through with their education and I know a guy for example who has a Bachelor in Physics but he's as simple as a loaf of bread and his peers don't know how he managed to do that.
I know a software developer who just bought himself an apartment with garden at 25 (no parents that could sponsor any of it) and he has no 3rd level qualification. I know plenty of people who have no 3rd level education and struggle.
So everything goes there really.

I believe in some cases it is overrated, in some it isn't. Depends on the field, depends on the person, depends on how stuck up HR is with their requirements. 3rd level doesn't automatically produce smart, free-thinking people and some courses definitely are a preparation on uniforming young people for an industry while others really produce a great amount of innovative, highly qualified people.

sk8erboii

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Have you ever noticed that a lot of the people who are most curious about the world, who are often very avid readers over a wide breadth of topics, have no third-level education?

Pure projection mate. Theres no other place in the world you’d see where people are so dedicated to their subjects and fields than university. Auld lads at the pub talking ****e doesnt make them useful or smart.

Universities are full of smart and dedicated people. You’d know if you went there instead of the pub

Brendan Delaney

University is just a lifestyle 'experience' that is sold to naive millenials these days.

Brendan Delaney

Brendan Delaney wrote: »

University is just a lifestyle 'experience' that is sold to naive millenials these days.

Thank you for a nuanced and insightful contribution.

Brendan Delaney

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Thank you for a nuanced and insightful contribution.

You're welcome.

sk8erboii

sk8erboii wrote: »

Universities are full of smart and dedicated people. You’d know if you went there instead of the pub

Ah if only. I'd never make it to university, that's for smart people like you sk8erboii.

Sound.

sk8erboii

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Ah if only. I'd never make it to university, that's for smart people like you sk8erboii.

Sound.

Whats with that chip on your shoulder?

Its not too late to enroll and make connections. Just dont be the old creep that hits on every young female

OP check out a YouTube channel called 'Eli the Computer Guy'. He has some interesting and opinionated videos on this matter. Worth mulling over.

sk8erboii

sk8erboii wrote: »

Whats with that chip on your shoulder?

Its not too late to enroll and make connections. Just dont be the old creep that hits on every young female

Cool! I'm doing it as we speak.

Can't wait to see what it's all about!!!!

That chip on my shoulder is one I got from sitting in bars with ould fellas who told me about botany and farming, while all the local nerdz went off to university.

sk8erboii

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Cool! I'm doing it as we speak.

Can't wait to see what it's all about!!!!

Awh. Happy for you. You’ll be surrounded by positive, driven and smart people. So its gonna be a stark contrast to your usual environment.

But dont worry, just focus on your work and make friends. All that bitterness will fade!

Atoms for Peace

Fours to get an honours degree is a ridiculous waste of time. Two years with relevent work experience should be enough.

Brendan Delaney

sk8erboii wrote: »

Its not too late to enroll and make connections. Just dont be the old creep that hits on every young female

What about the sluts with daddy issues?

sk8erboii

Brendan Delaney wrote: »

What about the sluts with daddy issues?

Enroll in the arts department

Brendan Delaney

sk8erboii wrote: »

Enroll in the arts department

Noted.

lacase

The reality is today a primary degree is almost a prerequisite for getting any sort of decent job. When it comes to postgraduate qualifications my first question to a student is what can't you do now that this qualification will allow you to do? If it is worth it do it, otherwise don't waste your time and effort. When it comes to doing a PhD in my view it is a total waste of time. How do I know? Trust me I am a Doctor with the international research and publications to prove it!

Gimme A Pound

Brendan Delaney wrote: »

University is just a lifestyle 'experience' that is sold to naive millenials these days.

University is necessary for certain careers like medicine, electrical engineering, secondary school teaching, and simply because many organisations look for people with degrees, even if not relevant to the job.

As for people just going to university for the lifestyle and to do useless subjects like gender studies, that's been around since long before these days.

KikiLaRue

Derrick Some Rayon wrote: »

University is necessary for certain careers like medicine, electrical engineering, secondary school teaching, and simply because many organisations look for people with degrees, even if not relevant to the job.

As for people just going to university for the lifestyle and to do useless subjects like gender studies, that's been around since long before these days.

Men love to bash gender studies. If more of them studied it, we might not have needed the #metoo movement.

Dr_serious2

sk8erboii wrote: »

Enroll in the arts department

Enrol* (unless you're American)

HBC08

Dr_serious2 wrote: »

Enrol* (unless your American)

*you're *

Derrick Some Rayon

Derrick Some Rayon wrote: »

University is necessary for certain careers like medicine, electrical engineering, secondary school teaching, and simply because many organisations look for people with degrees, even if not relevant to the job.

As for people just going to university for the lifestyle and to do useless subjects like gender studies, that's been around since long before these days.

I don't think anybody is claiming that aimless participation at university is a new phenomenon, but what is unprecedented is the public's opportunity-cost of paying for students' rite of passage, on courses that some of them have little interest in pursuing.

Public places in many of our universities' faculties should be drastically cut, in my view, and the vacuum filled by private institutions where students and their parents are welcome to pay for such dalliances.

Not only are we fitting away public money on a pointless exercise that seems mainly intended to placate bourgeois aspirations, we are devaluing the very education that universities are capable of offering to bright, interested, enthusiastic students.

KikiLaRue

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I don't think anybody is claiming that aimless participation at university is a new phenomenon, but what is unprecedented is the public's opportunity-cost of paying for students' rite of passage, on courses that some of them have little interest in pursuing.

Public places in many of our universities' faculties should be drastically cut, in my view, and the vacuum filled by private institutions where students and their parents are welcome to pay for such dalliances.

Not only are we fritting away your money and my money on a pointless exercise that seems mainly intended to placate bourgeois aspirations, we are devaluing the very education that universities are capable of offering to bright, interested, enthusiastic students.

Fritting away money? You're joking now.

A highly educated, English-speaking workforce is a huge incentive for multinationals to bring jobs here.

Not alone this, education is in and of itself a good thing. Ireland is a better place for making education available to the many and not the few as your post would have it.

We see education as a right, and not a privilege only for those whose parents can afford it. Horribly elitist comment from you.

Gimme A Pound

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Men love to bash gender studies. If more of them studied it, we might not have needed the #metoo movement.

Woman here. I just don't think it's something that requires a degree. And I think sexist men will be sexist men, gender studies course or not. And they certainly wouldn't be opting to do a gender studies course anyway.

whisky_galore

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Men love to bash gender studies. If more of them studied it, we might not have needed the #metoo movement.

You can be a decent human being without having to study to attain an essentially useless qualification.

KikiLaRue

whisky_galore wrote: »

You can be a decent human being without having to study to attain an essentially useless qualification.

Wouldn't mind sending the poster above whose off to college to look for 'sluts with daddy issues' to a few modules!

Church on Tuesday

Derrick Some Rayon wrote: »

They didn't say science is wishy washy.

And they're right about film studies.

It depends if that person really wants to work in that industry.

If you're determined enough you will.

It's different though if your just a movie buff and think it'll be a bita craic.

KikiLaRue

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Fritting away money? You're joking now.

A highly educated, English-speaking workforce is a huge incentive for multinationals to bring jobs here.

The fixation with tertiary education, which I think may be irrational, does indeed to extend to industry.

I am not denying that industry places great value on a tertiary education for the undertaking of some of the most menial conceivable tasks, but my focus is on the underlying assumption across all social life that such an education is generally necessary. It is not.

Nevertheless, if people place such great importance on mass accreditation for the benefit of industry, let private institutions perform this accreditation. It should not be the responsibility of public universities and colleges to satisfy some arbitrary and irrational whim of industry and middle class parents.

We see education as a right, and not a privilege only for those whose parents can afford it. Horribly elitist comment from you.

I am completely in favour of education as a right for those who have sufficient interest and ability, but not as a rite for everyone, in a way that is wasteful of public resources, and leads to deprivation in other aspects of social life, such as public housing.

SEPT 23 1989

Hard work and a bit of luck (which happens the harder you work ) will get you where you want

It's not easy though

Degrees PhD etc make life easier I would imagine

EnmxLP

I just finished a level 8 degree in Humanities, in my 3 years in university I didn't learn a single thing. Even in the hands on production modules the standard and level of work expected was extremely low, and if you did a higher standard it was barely even recognised

Brendan Delaney

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Wouldn't mind sending the poster above whose off to college to look for 'sluts with daddy issues' to a few modules!

Regards,

Bearded lesbian professor who scams millenials with xir's worthless gender studies degree.

KikiLaRue

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I am completely in favour of education as a right for those who have sufficient interest and ability, but not as a rite for everyone, in a way that is wasteful of public resources, and leads to deprivation in other aspects of social life, such as public housing.

How egotistical of you to decide who deserves the right to education and who doesn't... and your solution is to privatise... because that's never gone wrong with state bodies in the past?

And lucky for us, we live in a wealthy enough country that we do not need to choose between housing and education, we have sufficient funds for both. The infrastructural problems we're facing are largely down to mismanagement.

griffin100

lacase wrote: »

The reality is today a primary degree is almost a prerequisite for getting any sort of decent job. When it comes to postgraduate qualifications my first question to a student is what can't you do now that this qualification will allow you to do? If it is worth it do it, otherwise don't waste your time and effort. When it comes to doing a PhD in my view it is a total waste of time. How do I know? Trust me I am a Doctor with the international research and publications to prove it!

You’re not a scientist or engineer I’d guess. Significant progress in the hard sciences is made by postgraduate students doing research. It’s also not the function of a PhD to make you better at something, it’s about research. Now some research will have no societal benefits but some does. But there’s nothing wrong with research for the sheer joy of developing knowledge. If it interests you spend 3-4 years doing a PhD, god knows your working life will be long enough.

How do I know? I’m a PhD with publications in well regarded journals and sit on a number of research review groups in both the life and human / social science so get to see a lot of research.

KikiLaRue

Brendan Delaney wrote: »

Regards,

Bearded lesbian professor who scams millenials with xir's worthless gender studies degree.

Congratulations on your 8th post.