Person looking to marry in the UK while still being married in Ireland

sexmag

Hi,

I'm just looking to see if this is possible or is this fraud I should report.

A person I knew was married in Ireland for a couple of years, he subsequently left Ireland and his wife and started a new relationship in the UK. They have since become engaged and are looking to get married. I know for a fact that he is not divorced, considering it's been less than 2 years since he left but his wife confirmed he didnt not issue proceedings to divorce.

Will he be able to marry in the UK? If not how do they find out he is still married or does he need to be reported for trying to have a marriage while still married?

Thanks

Mr. Incognito

What is it to you?

Tomw86

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

What is it to you?

Well some people will report a crime if they see one being committed.

OP, I am almost certain this is illegal but you would be best to ring citizens advice or one of those free legal advice numbers if you are concerned and want to report it.

Mr. Incognito

I think peoples relationships and their family life are their own affair.

Bigamy is a crime. Its actually a criminal offence.

His wife could report it.

An unrelated third party could I think but its a strange one.

I think he would actually have to be remarried before an offence is committed. Engaged is not the same thing.

Phileas Frog

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I think peoples relationships and their family life are their own affair.

Bigamy is a crime. Its actually a criminal offence.

His wife could report it.

An unrelated third party could I think but its a strange one.

I think he would actually have to be remarried before an offence is committed. Engaged is not the same thing.

What's strange about it?

Mr. Incognito

Phileas Frog wrote: »

What's strange about it?

Whats strange about a third party making a complaint to the police about some random persons family life status?

Seriously>?

Tomw86

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I think peoples relationships and their family life are their own affair.

Bigamy is a crime. Its actually a criminal offence.

His wife could report it.

An unrelated third party could I think but its a strange one.

I think he would actually have to be remarried before an offence is committed. Engaged is not the same thing.

Agreed. He could have been honest with his fiancée in the UK and told her he'd have to wait until he was divorced before they can be officially married.

If he marries her, it's a crime.

splinter65

sexmag wrote: »

Hi,

I'm just looking to see if this is possible or is this fraud I should report.

A person I knew was married in Ireland for a couple of years, he subsequently left Ireland and his wife and started a new relationship in the UK. They have since become engaged and are looking to get married. I know for a fact that he is not divorced, considering it's been less than 2 years since he left but his wife confirmed he didnt not issue proceedings to divorce.

Will he be able to marry in the UK? If not how do they find out he is still married or does he need to be reported for trying to have a marriage while still married?

Thanks

If he’s not from the uk and he wants to get married there then the uk will require evidence from other countries he’s lived in to prove that he’s not already married.

.......

What I find bizarre is how much the OP knows about some guy in Englands life, to the point that he wants to police yer mans life!!

He might be waiting until he is divorced, he might have done a quickie divorce in the UK if thats where he lives, he might be planning a religious only ceremony with the new one, he might not even be in a new relationship!!

How on earth does the OP know so much about this guys life?

splinter65

....... wrote: »

What I find bizarre is how much the OP knows about some guy in Englands life, to the point that he wants to police yer mans life!!

He might be waiting until he is divorced, he might have done a quickie divorce in the UK if thats where he lives, he might be planning a religious only ceremony with the new one, he might not even be in a new relationship!!

How on earth does the OP know so much about this guys life?

If he was married in Ireland then he’ll have to get his divorce from Ireland.
If he wants a catholic wedding then he still has to produce evidence to the church that he’s not already married. Letters of freedom from all the parishes he’s lived in as an adult.

coylemj

splinter65 wrote: »

If he’s not from the uk and he wants to get married there then the uk will require evidence from other countries he’s lived in to prove that he’s not already married.

I seriously doubt that that's the case. If you had lived in the US (where marriage is regulated by the individual states), would you need a letter from all 50 states to say you were never married? Because you could have lived in NY state and gone to Nevada for a weekend to get married, without ever having been domiciled in that state.

ShaunC

I'd say let him marry away, It's shocking to see a man make the same mistake twice:eek:

.......

splinter65 wrote: »

If he was married in Ireland then he’ll have to get his divorce from Ireland.
If he wants a catholic wedding then he still has to produce evidence to the church that he’s not already married. Letters of freedom from all the parishes he’s lived in as an adult.

Nope - you can divorce in whatever state you are domiciled.

I cant speak for Catholic requirements (although that sounds a bit overkill - really?) but Catholicism is not the only religion.

Its easy to commit bigamy.

Generally the only people who complain about it are those affected by it - so the new wife and resultant children might be unhappy to find out about it but not usually random strangers.

GerardKeating

splinter65 wrote: »

If he was married in Ireland then he’ll have to get his divorce from Ireland.

No, you get divorce where you live...

gmisk

sexmag wrote: »

Hi,

I'm just looking to see if this is possible or is this fraud I should report.

A person I knew was married in Ireland for a couple of years, he subsequently left Ireland and his wife and started a new relationship in the UK. They have since become engaged and are looking to get married. I know for a fact that he is not divorced, considering it's been less than 2 years since he left but his wife confirmed he didnt not issue proceedings to divorce.

Will he be able to marry in the UK? If not how do they find out he is still married or does he need to be reported for trying to have a marriage while still married?

Thanks

I would think he would have to prove he was not married previously in ireland.


For example I am getting married in ROI and was born in Northern Ireland I had to get a document proving I wasnt married during my time living in Northern Ireland over the age of 16.

Bannasidhe

....... wrote: »

Nope - you can divorce in whatever state you are domiciled.

I cant speak for Catholic requirements (although that sounds a bit overkill - really?) but Catholicism is not the only religion.

Its easy to commit bigamy.

Generally the only people who complain about it are those affected by it - so the new wife and resultant children might be unhappy to find out about it but not usually random strangers.

However, as his second marriage would be illegal this would leave his new 'wife' as a legal stranger - should he die she would not inherit anything as his first wife is still his legal next of kin.

I knew someone this happened to. Police turn up to tell her 'husband' was killed in a car crash - during probate it turns out he was already married but in a different jurisdiction. All his assets went to his first (and legal) wife.

The Registrar asks each member of the couple to declare that they know of no lawful reason why they should not be married to each other in addition to asking those present to speak up if they know of a lawful impediment.

If convicted of bigamy in the UK he could get up to 7 years in jail.

coylemj

gmisk wrote: »

For example I am getting married in ROI and was born in Northern Ireland I had to get a document proving I wasnt married during my time living in Northern Ireland over the age of 16.

The problem with that procedure is that it relies on a person who is about to get married to be honest about the previous places they have lived in. A would-be biganist can simply omit to mention that they lived in country 'x', (where they are still legally married) and go ahead with a bigamist ceremony.

And an honest person would be saddled with the burden of writing to every country they ever lived in to get proof that they were not married. And see my post (#11) above regarding the situation if you ever lived in the US.

theteal

splinter65 wrote: »

If he’s not from the uk and he wants to get married there then the uk will require evidence from other countries he’s lived in to prove that he’s not already married.

coylemj wrote: »

I seriously doubt that that's the case. If you had lived in the US (where marriage is regulated by the individual states), would you need a letter from all 50 states to say you were never married? Because you could have lived in NY state and gone to Nevada for a weekend to get married, without ever having been domiciled in that state.

You don't need proof. The question is asked alright but a simple "yes/no" declaration is all it takes.

irelandrover

theteal wrote: »

You don't need proof. The question is asked alright but a simple "yes/no" declaration is all it takes.

I had to provide proof when I got married abroad that I wasn't married in Ireland.

theteal

irelandrover wrote: »

I had to provide proof when I got married abroad that I wasn't married in Ireland.

Different countries, different requirements so.

I was married in the UK, in the London borough of Havering to be exact. Again, I can remember the question on the form but that's s far as it went.

coylemj

irelandrover wrote: »

I had to provide proof when I got married abroad that I wasn't married in Ireland.

If you provide a name and date of birth, will the Irish registrar provide a letter to say that there is no record that you were ever married here?

In your case, did the requirement only extend to your home country? Were you asked if you had lived in any third countries and did you have to provide similar written proof in respect of those countries?

irelandrover

coylemj wrote: »

If you provide a name and date of birth, will the Irish registrar provide a letter to say that there is no record that you were ever married here?

In your case, did the requirement only extend to your home country? Were you asked if you had lived in any third countries and did you have to provide similar written proof in respect of those countries?

All countries I'd lived in, but i had only lived in Ireland. Here is what i had to apply for.

freedom to marry cert

Phileas Frog

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Whats strange about a third party making a complaint to the police about some random persons family life status?

Seriously>?

Because it's illegal. If you buggered children in your family life, i'd still be making a complaint.

.......

Bannasidhe wrote: »

However, as his second marriage would be illegal this would leave his new 'wife' as a legal stranger - should he die she would not inherit anything as his first wife is still his legal next of kin.

Exactly - thats why I said the people affected would be the new wife and kids - for that very reason, they would legally be strangers.

However, on whats been posted so far, the man has not remarried and its just a case of the OP wanting to go after people for thought crime ala Minority Report.

.......

Phileas Frog wrote: »

Because it's illegal. If you buggered children in your family life, i'd still be making a complaint.

There is nothing illegal about being engaged while still married to someone else.

mvl

For the sake of argument, what if they marry in a country where bigamy is legal - would UK then accept the marriage ?
Lets assume a country that allows non-residents to marry, like Egypt.

Credit Checker Moose

....... wrote: »

Exactly - thats why I said the people affected would be the new wife and kids - for that very reason, they would legally be strangers.

However, on whats been posted so far, the man has not remarried and its just a case of the OP wanting to go after people for thought crime ala Minority Report.

+1

Unless this person has taken steps in the UK such as giving notice or applying for a marriage licence no crime has taken place.
The UK police do not yet have a pre crime department that could action thought crimes.

Phileas Frog

Phileas Frog wrote:

Because it's illegal. If you buggered children in your family life, i'd still be making a complaint.

It's exactly the same ............

Bannasidhe

....... wrote: »

Exactly - thats why I said the people affected would be the new wife and kids - for that very reason, they would legally be strangers.

However, on whats been posted so far, the man has not remarried and its just a case of the OP wanting to go after people for thought crime ala Minority Report.

I think you are being harsh on the OP.
They seem to be worried that a crime may be committed and an innocent party suffers. They are looking for clarification as to whether it would be a crime. The answer is yes.
Perhaps the OP is worried that doing nothing - when they know for a fact there is a legal impediment - makes them an accessory. Morally if not legally.
It's hardly being "thought police" to wonder if they should act should a crime be about to be committed.

Plus - there wouldn't be many crimes solved if people thought 'that's none of my business - it only effects these people I don't know or care about."

sexmag

Sorry I've been busy with work to responde.

The person in question is my brother in law,married my sister 3 years ago, together 7 with 2 kids together,he up and did a runner.

He was tracked down and currently is engaged looking to be married in the UK,I cant go into specifics but know they will marry soon.

Is it up to my sister to report any fraudulent marriage or will it come out on it's own?

.......

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I think you are being harsh on the OP.
They seem to be worried that a crime may be committed and an innocent party suffers. They are looking for clarification as to whether it would be a crime. The answer is yes.
Perhaps the OP is worried that doing nothing - when they know for a fact there is a legal impediment - makes them an accessory. Morally if not legally.
It's hardly being "thought police" to wonder if they should act should a crime be about to be committed.

Plus - there wouldn't be many crimes solved if people thought 'that's none of my business - it only effects these people I don't know or care about."

There is no evidence that a crime may be committed. Unless you are a practicing and proven psychic?

Its nice that you think the OPs motive is to protect the innocent.

I think itd be nicer if people minded their own business and didnt try to vilify others for "pre crime".

.......

sexmag wrote: »

Sorry I've been busy with work to responde.

The person in question is my brother in law,married my sister 3 years ago, together 7 with 2 kids together,he up and did a runner.

He was tracked down and currently is engaged looking to be married in the UK,I cant go into specifics but know they will marry soon.

Is it up to my sister to report any fraudulent marriage or will it come out on it's own?

It is a legal requirement that marriages are open to the public so that people can object to the marriage if there are grounds to do so.

Your sister can attend and when they ask "does anyone know of any lawful impediment blah blah blah...." she can jump up and say "That man is my husband!!" and produce her marriage cert.

If she cant attend then she can report him afterwards.

sexmag

....... wrote: »

There is no evidence that a crime may be committed. Unless you are a practicing and proven psychic?

Its nice that you think the OPs motive is to protect the innocent.

I think itd be nicer if people minded their own business and didnt try to vilify others for "pre crime".

As advised this person is my brother in law,he abandoned my sister and his family, he is know looking to remarry while still married, our motives may be biased but still feel we should do something, a date has been set to be married and we would like to know is there a crime being committed and if we should report or will it be found out naturally ?

.......

sexmag wrote: »

As advised this person is my brother in law,he abandoned my sister and his family, he is know looking to remarry while still married, our motives may be biased but still feel we should do something, a date has been set to be married and we would like to know is there a crime being committed and if we should report or will it be found out naturally ?

See my next post.

sexmag

....... wrote: »

It is a legal requirement that marriages are open to the public so that people can object to the marriage if there are grounds to do so.

Your sister can attend and when they ask "does anyone know of any lawful impediment blah blah blah...." she can jump up and say "That man is my husband!!" and produce her marriage cert.

If she cant attend then she can report him afterwards.

Thank you this is the helpful information we were looking for

splinter65

theteal wrote: »

Different countries, different requirements so.

I was married in the UK, in the London borough of Havering to be exact. Again, I can remember the question on the form but that's s far as it went.

I was born in Hornchurch. It’s greater London now?

Suggest you let it go. There is enough aggro to go around
Mod

Credit Checker Moose

There is nothing that can be done until the crime is committed.

Credit Checker Moose

splinter65 wrote: »

I was born in Hornchurch. It’s greater London now?

Since 1965 when the GLC snatched it from Essex.

splinter65

....... wrote: »

Nope - you can divorce in whatever state you are domiciled.

I cant speak for Catholic requirements (although that sounds a bit overkill - really?) but Catholicism is not the only religion.

Its easy to commit bigamy.

Generally the only people who complain about it are those affected by it - so the new wife and resultant children might be unhappy to find out about it but not usually random strangers.

If you’re looking for a catholic sacrament then it isn’t really too much for you to write the same letter to each parish priest at every parish you lived in and went to mass in since you were 16 and ask him to write back confirming that you didn’t get married there. Overkill?!?
I gave Catholic as an example. More than 3/4 of the country identified as catholic in the last census.

splinter65

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

Since 1965 when the GLC snatched it from Essex.

That’s the year I was born! Bastards! Hornchurch is Essex I tells ya!! Essex is the only way!!

.......

splinter65 wrote: »

If you’re looking for a catholic sacrament then it isn’t really too much for you to write the same letter to each parish priest at every parish you lived in and went to mass in since you were 16 and ask him to write back confirming that you didn’t get married there. Overkill?!?

Yes - overkill.

splinter65 wrote: »

I gave Catholic as an example. More than 3/4 of the country identified as catholic in the last census.

Indeed - but we are talking about a potential wedding in the UK.

coylemj

splinter65 wrote: »

If you’re looking for a catholic sacrament then it isn’t really too much for you to write the same letter to each parish priest at every parish you lived in and went to mass in since you were 16 and ask him to write back confirming that you didn’t get married there. Overkill?!?
I gave Catholic as an example. More than 3/4 of the country identified as catholic in the last census.

I don't think that's how the Catholic Church operates. Besides which, the procedure you described assumes the individual seeking to get married is honest about the places he has lived in. Producing a sheaf of letters from various parish priests stating that you didn't get married while living in his parish would be waste of time if you could have been secretly married in a parish that you chose not to disclose.

I believe the Catholic Church tracks your marital history based on the records in the church where you were baptised. For example, if you emigrated to Australia and wanted to get married locally in a Catholic Church, my understanding is that you need a letter (of 'freedom'?) from the church where you were baptised stating that you never got married. I'd expect that the church where you married would then inform your home church that the ceremony had happened and that fact would be recorded in the register alongside the record of your baptism. At which point, without a church annulment or a death cert. showing that your wife had died, you could never again get married in a Catholic Church.

Marcusm

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I think peoples relationships and their family life are their own affair.

Bigamy is a crime. Its actually a criminal offence.

His wife could report it.

An unrelated third party could I think but its a strange one.

I think he would actually have to be remarried before an offence is committed. Engaged is not the same thing.

The giving of false information to a U.K. registrar for the purposes of notification of an intent to contractca civil marriage is itself an offence irrespective of whether it progresses to an actual marriage. Ie it is a crime separate to bigamy.

Graces7

coylemj wrote: »

I don't think that's how the Catholic Church operates. Besides which, the procedure you described assumes the individual seeking to get married is honest about the places he has lived in. Producing a sheaf of letters from various parish priests stating that you didn't get married while living in his parish would be waste of time if you could have been secretly married in a parish that you chose not to disclose.

I believe the Catholic Church tracks your marital history based on the records in the church where you were baptised. For example, if you emigrated to Australia and wanted to get married locally in a Catholic Church, my understanding is that you need a letter (of 'freedom'?) from the church where you were baptised stating that you never got married. I'd expect that the church where you married would then inform your home church that the ceremony had happened and that fact would be recorded in the register alongside the record of your baptism. At which point, without a church annulment or a death cert. showing that your wife had died, you could never again get married in a Catholic Church.

Please read the actual documentation required.

"There are several documents you’ll need before you can get married in a Catholic church:

A New Long Form of Baptismal Cert: You’ll need a copy of your baptismal cert from the church where you were baptised. It must be issued with six months of your wedding – older certificates won’t be accepted.
Indication of Confirmation:You will also need a copy of your confirmation certificate. You can get this from the church you were confirmed and again it must be issued within six months of your wedding date.
Proof of Freedom to Marry: The general rule is that you should have a Letter of Freedom from every parish you lived in for more than six months once you turned 18 but if you’ve moved regularly, this can be difficult. The purpose of the Letter of Freedom is to prove that you are in fact free to get married. Another option is to swear an affidavit before a Commissioner of Oaths stating you’ve never been married.
Pre-Nuptial Enquiry Form: Every person getting married in a Catholic Church must have a pre-nuptial Enquiry form completed by the priest from their local parish. The priest will provide you with this document. It states that you’re free to marry and that you understand the sacrament of marriage. All of your other documentation (baptism/confirmation cert, letters of freedom and pre-marriage certificate) will need to be shown to the priest at this point also.
Dispensation:If your partner isn’t Catholic, you will need to apply for a ‘Dispensation’ from the local Bishop. Your local parish priest will be able to help you with details on this.
Pre-Marriage Course:Most Catholic churches will request that you attend a pre-marriage course and obtain a certificate of completion. This is normally done through Accord here in Newtownsmith in Galway.
"

Taken from

https://www.claregalwayhotel.ie/arranging-a-catholic-church-wedding/

went through all this with/for a friend .

coylemj

Graces7 wrote: »

Please read the actual documentation required.

.....

Proof of Freedom to Marry: The general rule is that you should have a Letter of Freedom from every parish you lived in for more than six months once you turned 18 but if you’ve moved regularly, this can be difficult. The purpose of the Letter of Freedom is to prove that you are in fact free to get married. Another option is to swear an affidavit before a Commissioner of Oaths stating you’ve never been married.

Accept that but like I said, that procedure represents no deterrent to a would-be bigamist. Falsifying the paperwork for the catholic priest is hardly an obstacle, the real deterrent is being convicted of entering into a bigamist marriage.

Graces7

coylemj wrote: »

Accept that but like I said, that procedure represents no deterrent to a would-be bigamist. Falsifying the paperwork for the catholic priest is hardly an obstacle, the real deterrent is being convicted of entering into a bigamist marriage.

wrong again. as they check/double check rigorously. Bigamy is more than a crime to the Church. It is a rigidly legalistic organisation in these matters

Credit Checker Moose

If a person was determined to be a bigamist they would not go via the church, they would go the civil route.

coylemj

Graces7 wrote: »

wrong again. as they check/double check rigorously. Bigamy is more than a crime to the Church.

They 'check/double check rigorously' exactly what? Each parish has a register of baptisms and weddings but there is no central database so how can they 'rigourously' check anything?

The list of parishes you lived in is supplied by you - what's to say you 'forgot' one or two? Including the parish where you got married a few years ago.

Graces7 wrote: »

It is a rigidly legalistic organisation in these matters

Is that a wordy way of saying that the Catholic Church doesn't tolerate bigamy?

3DataModem

sexmag wrote: »

.

Is it up to my sister to report any fraudulent marriage or will it come out on it's own?

It is in your sisters interest not to report it, so she can look forward to collecting his estate when he dies.

.......

Graces7 wrote: »

wrong again. as they check/double check rigorously. Bigamy is more than a crime to the Church. It is a rigidly legalistic organisation in these matters

How or what would they check?

They dont have a central database of any kind. Priests hardly write to every other parish in the entire universe to check the marital status of everyone who presents to get married?

Tomw86

3DataModem wrote: »

It is in your sisters interest not to report it, so she can look forward to collecting his estate when he dies.

Or she could wait, file for divorce when the 4 years has elapsed, and then take him to cleaners.

Or wait til he dies - which could follow on very shortly after the filing for divorce if his new 'wife' finds out.