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Polled genetics - Bringing into non-polled cattle

  • 29-04-2019 12:11pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 9,657 ✭✭✭ patsy_mccabe


    Has anyone ever tried this? My understanding is it is a long process, but it can be done as follows;

    Use a fully polled bull (homozygous polled) on a horned cow. All the offspring will be half-polled (heterozygous polled). 3rd row in Pic.

    On the heifers from above, use another fully polled bull. 4th row in Pic. 1/2 offspring will be fully-polled and 1/2 will be half-polled.

    Thinking of using a few polled Limousin straws I got recently. ICBF can test for the Polledness. Should have a fully polled Limousin bull in 10 years time. :)

    " And on the riverbank forgotten the river's name."



Comments

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 1,644 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Albert Johnson


    Has anyone ever tried this? My understanding is it is a long process, but it can be done as follows;

    Use a fully polled bull (homozygous polled) on a horned cow. All the offspring will be half-polled (heterozygous polled). 3rd row in Pic.

    On the heifers from above, use another fully polled bull. 4th row in Pic. 1/2 offspring will be fully-polled and 1/2 will be half-polled.

    Thinking of using a few polled Limousin straws I got recently. ICBF can test for the Polledness. Should have a fully polled Limousin bull in 10 years time. :)

    I have a vague recollection of reading about polled genetics being very prominent in the herds of South and Central America. Seemingly they were streets ahead of the Europeans regarding the selection of bloodlines that had polled bulls available. However importing semen was an issue due to the presence of Foot and Mouth disease in many of these regions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,657 ✭✭✭ patsy_mccabe


    I see Roundhill are well into their polled programme. Wouldn't be surprised if we see a few Irish bred Polled Limousin in AI soon.

    https://www.irishlimousin.com/2019/08/15/roundhill-limousin-welcomes-the-north-west-uk-club/

    " And on the riverbank forgotten the river's name."



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,082 ✭✭✭✭ Base price


    I remember reading newspaper articles (20 odd years ago) from USA/Canada about polled Herefords.

    I think there are polled HE sires commonly available in Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭ Castlekeeper


    Last I read 3/4 cows polled were against it...
    Regardless of whether AI or natural service, if you use a polled bull on a non poled cow, there's a good chance that she will still end up poled...


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,657 ✭✭✭ patsy_mccabe


    Last I read 3/4 cows polled were against it...
    Regardless of whether AI or natural service, if you use a polled bull on a non poled cow, there's a good chance that she will still end up poled...

    A fully polled bull used on a horned cow, will always produce a half polled animal. It's well explained on the attachment above in the first post.

    " And on the riverbank forgotten the river's name."



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,919 ✭✭✭ Say my name


    A fully polled bull used on a horned cow, will always produce a half polled animal. It's well explained on the attachment above in the first post.

    I'm not sure Patsy if you fully got his post?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,902 ✭✭✭ kollegeknight


    Base price wrote: »
    I remember reading newspaper articles (20 odd years ago) from USA/Canada about polled Herefords.

    I think there are polled HE sires commonly available in Ireland.

    Bova AI have one.

    http://bova-ai.com/?page_id=5504


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,657 ✭✭✭ patsy_mccabe


    I'm not sure Patsy if you fully got his post?

    I do now. :D

    " And on the riverbank forgotten the river's name."



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭ Castlekeeper


    Last I read 3/4 cows polled were against it...
    Regardless of whether AI or natural service, if you use a polled bull on a non poled cow, there's a good chance that she will still end up poled...

    A fully polled bull used on a horned cow, will always produce a half polled animal. It's well explained on the attachment above in the first post.
    Of course introducing a fully horned bull into the equation further complicates things....


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,821 ✭✭✭ Bullocks


    Base price wrote: »
    I remember reading newspaper articles (20 odd years ago) from USA/Canada about polled Herefords.

    I think there are polled HE sires commonly available in Ireland.
    The old boy used Canadian polled Hereford straws on fr heifers years ago. We had a few pulls with them but they were great lumps of calves.
    Is it true that polled cattle weren't as growthy as horned ones? It wasn't the case with the few we had but I've heard lads saying it


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭ Castlekeeper


    Bullocks wrote: »
    Base price wrote: »
    I remember reading newspaper articles (20 odd years ago) from USA/Canada about polled Herefords.

    I think there are polled HE sires commonly available in Ireland.
    The old boy used Canadian polled Hereford straws on fr heifers years ago. We had a few pulls with them but they were great lumps of calves.
    Is it true that polled cattle weren't as growthy as horned ones? It wasn't the case with the few we had but I've heard lads saying it
    Getting away from my inner 13 yo, Munster/NCBC have had polled HE bulls available for years. From the Sollpoll herd in UK, they are easy calving and really high quality, best HE calves I've got.
    There used to be a polled herd in Wexford, Udel Herefords I think.
    Also polled genetics used to have the name for inferior quality, which is to be expected when the breeding goals change and a with a smaller gene pool, but, from what I've seen lately, that day is gone.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,657 ✭✭✭ patsy_mccabe


    I am surprised that the Roundhill Limousin herd have gone so full on into the polled genetics. From above;

    "The herd now consists of 66 heterozygous polled females and 2 homozygous females, along with nine heterozygous males and four homozygous young males."

    If they use another full polled bull on those 66 half polled heifers, they will get approx 33 fully polled offspring. The other half, while having no horns, will only be half polled again. The downside of course is you bring the good with the bad genetically.

    " And on the riverbank forgotten the river's name."



  • Registered Users Posts: 439 ✭✭ farmer2018


    Has anyone ever tried this? My understanding is it is a long process, but it can be done as follows;

    Use a fully polled bull (homozygous polled) on a horned cow. All the offspring will be half-polled (heterozygous polled). 3rd row in Pic.

    On the heifers from above, use another fully polled bull. 4th row in Pic. 1/2 offspring will be fully-polled and 1/2 will be half-polled.

    Thinking of using a few polled Limousin straws I got recently. ICBF can test for the Polledness. Should have a fully polled Limousin bull in 10 years time. :)

    If a homozygous bull is mated to a horned cow most of the calves will be polled but you will have the odd scurs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 439 ✭✭ farmer2018


    Bullocks wrote: »
    The old boy used Canadian polled Hereford straws on fr heifers years ago. We had a few pulls with them but they were great lumps of calves.
    Is it true that polled cattle weren't as growthy as horned ones? It wasn't the case with the few we had but I've heard lads saying it

    Its the opposite polled are growthier than horned Herefords.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,657 ✭✭✭ patsy_mccabe


    I bought a purebred Limousin heifer last year. I was told she was incalf to a heterozygous polled (half polled) bull. Her heifer calf had no horns when born.
    Can I take this as confirmaton that the calf is now heterozygous polled too?

    " And on the riverbank forgotten the river's name."



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,082 ✭✭✭✭ Base price


    I bought a purebred Limousin heifer last year. I was told she was incalf to a heterozygous polled (half polled) bull. Her heifer calf had no horns when born.
    Can I take this as confirmaton that the calf is now heterozygous polled too?
    Yes. If that heifer is put in calf to a polled or heterozygous bull she will have a polled calf.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,082 ✭✭✭✭ Base price


    Patsy, here is a good link that explains it better. Polledness is the first criteria that I use when selecting shorthorn bulls.

    I've noticed that a number of HEx calves that we bought in this year are polled and have as good a conformation as their horned counterparts. Years ago people used to say that polled Herefords lacked conformation.
    https://www.icbf.com/wp/?p=13068


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,271 ✭✭✭ J.O. Farmer


    Base price wrote: »
    Yes. If that heifer is put in calf to a polled or heterozygous bull she will have a polled calf.

    It's 75% she'll have a polled calf with a heterozygous bull and 50% the calf will be homozygous polled.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,871 ✭✭✭ Lime Tree Farm


    It's like a throwback to the Leaving Cert Ag Science and Biology.

    Any of you have Leaving cert students who would sketch up a Punnett square to determine the offspring with a polled genotype.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,082 ✭✭✭✭ Base price


    It's 75% she'll have a polled calf with a heterozygous bull and 50% the calf will be homozygous polled.
    Are you sure?
    The polled gene "P" is dominant over the horned gene "p". Therefore as she is Pp and if mated to a PP (homozygous) bull she will produce a polled calf.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,657 ✭✭✭ patsy_mccabe


    Base price wrote: »
    Are you sure?
    The polled gene "P" is dominant over the horned gene "p". Therefore as she is Pp and if mated to a PP (homozygous) bull she will produce a polled calf.

    Yes, she will always produce a polled calf from a PP bull, but 1/2 will be Pp and half PP. A genomic test will be needed to tell which one it is.

    To a Pp bull, 75% will be polled, made up of 50% Pp and 25% PP........I think.

    " And on the riverbank forgotten the river's name."



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,271 ✭✭✭ J.O. Farmer


    To a Pp bull, 75% will be polled, made up of 50% Pp and 25% PP........I think.

    Yeah that's it. The last 25% will be pp and have horns.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,226 ✭✭✭ tanko




  • Registered Users Posts: 9,657 ✭✭✭ patsy_mccabe


    I got my polled limousin heifer (as in my post above) genotyped and it came back as confirmed Heterogeneous Polled (Pp). She is a fair growthy heifer and in-calf now to Gamin (ZGM). I still have the Junior PP straws I got from Bova and haven't used them yet. Thought he was a little on the hard calving side for a heifer.

    " And on the riverbank forgotten the river's name."



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,657 ✭✭✭ patsy_mccabe


    I was dehorning calves for a neighbour today and he had a ZAG limousin calf with no horns. Her mother is an AI bred Simmental and her mother again the same, AI bred Simm. The mother of that cow was an angus. It was a long way for the Pollness to carry.

    " And on the riverbank forgotten the river's name."



  • Registered Users Posts: 670 ✭✭✭ Sugarbowl


    this has happened to me a few times. Where an AI calf has turned up with no horns without reason. Happened with a saler heifer off a HE cow last year and they normally great for horns. Have a January AI Aubrac calf as well this year off a SA cow and shes showing no horns yet either. Love when it happens!



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,902 ✭✭✭ kollegeknight


    I have a polled LMx off a speckle park cow and never once has she had a calf with horns….. her mother who is a speckle park has had about 50/50 polled.


    bought a polled PBR Hereford heifer in calf to a shorthorn. Interesting to see how it will go.



  • Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭ ginger22


    Correction. If she is mated to a PP bull 75% will be PP, 25% P there fore all polled.

    We are dairy not beef but all calves born here this Spring are polled, as we only used PP straws and PP stock bulls, all dairy genetics.



  • Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭ ginger22


    It can happen. We have a Holstein heifer here that we purchased in Germany, 5 generations polled with no polled bull in the pedigree.

    Several family members are in AI stations in Germany and Holland.



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