GAA - When does competitiveness begin

Noddy Nangle

Our Under 13s team is in the wars with parents. They have 25 or 26 players but not enough for two teams. They are competing in a league and championship and they are starting their best 15 first and then bringing on subs as required. If they are winning or losing by a big margin then they give all subs a run. There are also practice games for the subs to play in. But there is uproar with those parents whose sons aren’t starting or getting subbed in regularly. As far as I was concerned it got competive after go games but I can see the parents point. The question is is Under 13s competitive or not ?

Tomas81

Noddy Nangle wrote: »

Our Under 13s team is in the wars with parents. They have 25 or 26 players but not enough for two teams. They are competing in a league and championship and they are starting their best 15 first and then bringing on subs as required. If they are winning or losing by a big margin then they give all subs a run. There are also practice games for the subs to play in. But there is uproar with those parents whose sons aren’t starting or getting subbed in regularly. As far as I was concerned it got competive after go games but I can see the parents point. The question is is Under 13s competitive or not ?

Of course it's competitive, parents who aren't happy should be addressed on it. Why tarnish others abilities cause another child isn't as good. That's reality some kids are better then others. At the age of 12 13 kids will start looking towards development panels for the county.

jay1988

Noddy Nangle wrote: »

Our Under 13s team is in the wars with parents. They have 25 or 26 players but not enough for two teams. They are competing in a league and championship and they are starting their best 15 first and then bringing on subs as required. If they are winning or losing by a big margin then they give all subs a run. There are also practice games for the subs to play in. But there is uproar with those parents whose sons aren’t starting or getting subbed in regularly. As far as I was concerned it got competive after go games but I can see the parents point. The question is is Under 13s competitive or not ?

Think you've answered your own question here.

Its a bit **** for the kids who arent playing but they'll have to learn eventually that lifes not fair and everything wont go their way all the time. IMO learning this through sport can be good for kids.

These parents need to grow up aswell.

LM4C

What about the mental health and well-being of these children being told at 11/12/13 that they arent good enough although they are putting the effort in by training week in and week out with their team, then next minute the coach is handpicking stronger players from other teams just to win a game. All children develop at different times and just because they aren't developing as well as others in their team doesn't mean they shouldn't be included in the team games. Not all children will be looking towards county development panels.

Tomas81

LM4C wrote: »

What about the mental health and well-being of these children being told at 11/12/13 that they arent good enough although they are putting the effort in by training week in and week out with their team, then next minute the coach is handpicking stronger players from other teams just to win a game. All children develop at different times and just because they aren't developing as well as others in their team doesn't mean they shouldn't be included in the team games. Not all children will be looking towards county development panels.

Exactly so why should those kids disrupt the chance of the kids who are bleeding week in week out to play county.

If the kids not good enough he's not good enough, most clubs have 2 3 teams down the ladder to the 2nds or 3rds

lawred2

Difficult one. Can see both sides of this. As an underage rugby coach myself I'd like to think I'd give everyone an equal shot but it's not that straightforward. Sometimes the competition structures can help situations like this. Round robins etc where there are loads of games. Knockout championship fixtures should be a no-no at that age.

lawred2

Tomas81 wrote: »

Exactly so why should those kids disrupt the chance of the kids who are bleeding week in week out to play county.

If the kids not good enough he's not good enough, most clubs have 2 3 teams down the ladder to the 2nds or 3rds

Well Billy big balls - the OP said they didn't have enough players to facilitate another team so what happens then?

Most rural club teams would struggle to field multiple under age teams.. so the kids not deemed 'destined for county' will have to just go swing eh!?

You're talking about young children. The primary aim should be participation not auld lads acting like mini Jim Gavins.

Tomas81

lawred2 wrote: »

Well Billy big balls - the OP said they didn't have enough players to facilitate another team so what happens then?

Most rural club teams would struggle to field multiple under age teams.. so the kids not deemed 'destined for county' will have to just go swing eh!?

You're talking about young children. The primary aim should be participation not auld lads acting like mini Jim Gavins.

26 players would be enough to field 2 teams. You Mick and match players. It's not about people acting mini Jim Gavin's it's about not short changing those who have a real chance

lawred2

Tomas81 wrote: »

26 players would be enough to field 2 teams. You Mick and match players. It's not about people acting mini Jim Gavin's it's about not short changing those who have a real chance

How they being short changed?

Surely being subbed the odd time or not being started in every game is better preparation for county development panels than being the undroppable hotshot in a smaller setup.

There will be plenty of games for the good players. Sitting out the odd few minutes of matches doesn't short change anyone. But what it will do is reward everyone for training and taking part and is far better at building team mentality in the long run.

Tomas81

lawred2 wrote: »

How they being short changed?

Surely being subbed the odd time or not being started in every game is better preparation for county development panels than being the undroppable hotshot in a smaller setup.

There will be plenty of games for the good players. Sitting out the odd few minutes of matches doesn't short change anyone. But what it will do is reward everyone for training and taking part and is far better at building team mentality in the long run.

I understand but Garlic isn't played as such from 12s on you have championship which is a small group format of 4 5 teams top 2 progressing to knockouts.

Most kids at 12 13 are at a competitive knife edge which is only right if they are out. 3 4 evenings a week.

QuadaLumpins

A quick story ... I know a young lad who was left standing on the sideline of his u12 and u13 teams and never got a game. His dad asked the coach why and coach said young lad was not in his plans and would be a fairly low priority player for the foreseeable future.

Young lad was distraught and wanted to give up. Dad said no and let’s transfer to a team that gave all the kids an equal chance at playing irrespective of ability.

Now the young lad is 19, 6’5” and made from oak. He’s also on the senior panel for his new club after winning a few county medals at various ages. He’d walk into his old team and they have asked him back a few times.

Competitive streaming at underage (I’d say anything under 16 level) where kids are left on the sideline = cruel, stupid, shortsighted.

False Prophet

Is it not possible to promote some younger players to make the numbers for a second team?

BrianBoru00

LM4C wrote: »

What about the mental health and well-being of these children being told at 11/12/13 that they arent good enough although they are putting the effort in by training week in and week out with their team, then next minute the coach is handpicking stronger players from other teams just to win a game. All children develop at different times and just because they aren't developing as well as others in their team doesn't mean they shouldn't be included in the team games. Not all children will be looking towards county development panels.[/B]

Who's telling them.
A good coach will be encouraging those players to remain part of the team and part of training and part of the club.

Just because their not good enough to make the team does not mean they can't be vital members of the club. Some of the best chair / secretarys I've dealt with were no good on the pitch but enjoyed the craic and the friendships.

If they're playing sport and being encouraged to train and in this case getting game time whoever little its of absolutely massive massive benefit to their mental health.

In my experience its parents who have the chip on their shoulder more than the children themselves and instead of helping them improve by going out to the garden for 20 minutes every night to kick or pass a ball with them, they whinge.

OAOB

Why not make a second team and make up the numbers on that with the good players from the U-12 team? It will benefit the club in the long run

The Lost Sheep

Noddy Nangle wrote: »

Our Under 13s team is in the wars with parents. They have 25 or 26 players but not enough for two teams. They are competing in a league and championship and they are starting their best 15 first and then bringing on subs as required. If they are winning or losing by a big margin then they give all subs a run. There are also practice games for the subs to play in. But there is uproar with those parents whose sons aren’t starting or getting subbed in regularly. As far as I was concerned it got competive after go games but I can see the parents point. The question is is Under 13s competitive or not ?

Under 13 is competitive and i see parents point but what would you want to do?
The club are arranging friendlies for players not getting regular game time and not play the stronger players. This gets all kids game time and keeps them interested. What more can the club do? The practice games/friendlies, how many of them are arranged for the kids not getting enough game time in league?

Tomas81 wrote: »

Of course it's competitive, parents who aren't happy should be addressed on it. Why tarnish others abilities cause another child isn't as good. That's reality some kids are better then others. At the age of 12 13 kids will start looking towards development panels for the county.

This isnt tarnishing others abilties? Yes there will be looking for county development squads but your sub(player 24 in squad at age 13 can quite often be your county player at 17/senior level if managed properly)

LM4C wrote: »

What about the mental health and well-being of these children being told at 11/12/13 that they arent good enough although they are putting the effort in by training week in and week out with their team, then next minute the coach is handpicking stronger players from other teams just to win a game. All children develop at different times and just because they aren't developing as well as others in their team doesn't mean they shouldn't be included in the team games. Not all children will be looking towards county development panels.

Who is saying kids from other teams are being picked just to win?
OP simply said its a squad of 25/26 and parents of players who're 24/25/26 in squad etc arent happy with amount of game time their kids are getting

Tomas81 wrote: »

Exactly so why should those kids disrupt the chance of the kids who are bleeding week in week out to play county.

If the kids not good enough he's not good enough, most clubs have 2 3 teams down the ladder to the 2nds or 3rds

Most clubs only have 2/3 teams at adult level which isnt much use when we're talking about young kids as that is miles away for them and if theyre not getting much/any game time now then theyre very unlikely to be playing later on.
And you can never really say a 12/13 year old is not good enough and 90% of stronger kids on a club team will never get near making a county team so why put so much focus on that?

Tomas81 wrote: »

26 players would be enough to field 2 teams. You Mick and match players. It's not about people acting mini Jim Gavin's it's about not short changing those who have a real chance

26 players isnt at all enough for 2 teams as mixing and matching isnt always possible/feasible or even allowed as they'll be in two grades and there is restrictions around that

Tomas81

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Under 13 is competitive and i see parents point but what would you want to do?
The club are arranging friendlies for players not getting regular game time and not play the stronger players. This gets all kids game time and keeps them interested. What more can the club do? The practice games/friendlies, how many of them are arranged for the kids not getting enough game time in league?

This isnt tarnishing others abilties? Yes there will be looking for county development squads but your sub(player 24 in squad at age 13 can quite often be your county player at 17/senior level if managed properly)

Who is saying kids from other teams are being picked just to win?
OP simply said its a squad of 25/26 and parents of players who're 24/25/26 in squad etc arent happy with amount of game time their kids are getting

Most clubs only have 2/3 teams at adult level which isnt much use when we're talking about young kids as that is miles away for them and if theyre not getting much/any game time now then theyre very unlikely to be playing later on.
And you can never really say a 12/13 year old is not good enough and 90% of stronger kids on a club team will never get near making a county team so why put so much focus on that?

26 players isnt at all enough for 2 teams as mixing and matching isnt always possible/feasible or even allowed as they'll be in two grades and there is restrictions around that

Well I'm involved with Kilmacud crokes we have several teams underage, A,B,C or 1st 2nds 3rds whatever you wish to call them.

Tomas81

And there is no restriction by CLG regarding a child playing for 2 sides as long as he is not outside a parish transfer. If he is playing for the same side just 1st and 2nds that's allowed.

Tomas81

And there is no restriction by CLG regarding a child playing for 2 sides as long as he is not outside a parish transfer. If he is playing for the same side just 1st and 2nds that's allowed.

The Lost Sheep

Tomas81 wrote: »

Well I'm involved with Kilmacud crokes we have several teams underage, A,B,C or 1st 2nds 3rds whatever you wish to call them.

Must be different regs in different places as down in Tipp/Galway from my experience you can play on an A and B team and clubs must list players who cant play on any side at the grade other than the strongest side

Realt Dearg Sec

The club is doing exactly the right thing, and ensuring this is really just a temporary problem. Don't worry in another couple of years you'll only have the bare fifteen. Problem solved.

kala85

Tomas81 wrote: »

And there is no restriction by CLG regarding a child playing for 2 sides as long as he is not outside a parish transfer. If he is playing for the same side just 1st and 2nds that's allowed.

How is that true. What county is that in?

Bonniedog

From my experience, trying to be ultra fair can be just as disruptive. If you are giving everyone the same chance then the team will suffer and lose games and if that becomes obvious to the team then it causes bad feeling.

Not everyone has the same abilities and as someone above said, realising that is part of growing up. Happens to us all in some area of life or another, Pretending we are all the same just doesn't work.

I was involved in running a successful under 14 team and we did give everyone game time, but we started our strongest team, everyone bought into that, and it created a good team spirit, because everyone felt part of the overall effort, and no-one ws made feel less for not being first choice. There were 3/4 outstanding players, and rest were content to fight for their places on the team.

On other hand, I was involved in junior team in my declining years where club policy was to start lads - including me - who were solely junior - rather than 3/4 minors who were far better than myself and a few others.

Led to bad feeling, and to be honest, even though I was part of running the team, it became embarrassing to follow the policy, so I just made myself unavailable even though I had really enjoyed the training and being part of it.

threeball

Bonniedog wrote: »

From my experience, trying to be ultra fair can be just as disruptive. If you are giving everyone the same chance then the team will suffer and lose games and if that becomes obvious to the team then it causes bad feeling.

Not everyone has the same abilities and as someone above said, realising that is part of growing up. Happens to us all in some area of life or another, Pretending we are all the same just doesn't work.

I was involved in running a successful under 14 team and we did give everyone game time, but we started our strongest team, everyone bought into that, and it created a good team spirit, because everyone felt part of the overall effort, and no-one ws made feel less for not being first choice. There were 3/4 outstanding players, and rest were content to fight for their places on the team.

On other hand, I was involved in junior team in my declining years where club policy was to start lads - including me - who were solely junior - rather than 3/4 minors who were far better than myself and a few others.

Led to bad feeling, and to be honest, even though I was part of running the team, it became embarrassing to follow the policy, so I just made myself unavailable even though I had really enjoyed the training and being part of it.

Big difference comparing a junior at the end of his playing career to a 12 year old who hasn't even started.

You can't expect 10 young kids to stand on the sideline hoping to get 10 mins but only in games that aren't close. There should be no emphasis in a club on winning until at least u16. If you're not showing signs of having the aptitude at that stage it's probably not going to happen. Writing lads off at 12 or 13 is crazy. I've seen plenty of 12 year olds pulling up trees who looked like they spent the next 5yrs in Supermacs by the time minor came around and lads they were lumping out of the way at 12 running rings round them. You can tell nothing about a lad at 12. My own cousin hadn't even lifted a hurl or football by 11 and he went on to play county hurling and be the main engine of his senior football team.

Mon2002

Can anyone who is involved in u13 boys Gaelic coaching ever issued diet plans and requested parents to undertake urine tests on their boys. My sister has informed me this has happened within her sons team. Personally I think this is outrageous.

Bonniedog

Mon2002 wrote: »

Can anyone who is involved in u13 boys Gaelic coaching ever issued diet plans and requested parents to undertake urine tests on their boys. My sister has informed me this has happened within her sons team. Personally I think this is outrageous.

I was over 12s and 14s. Just laughing to myself at the idea of such a thing! Never heard of it before. Do county development squads even get into that area?

There is no way this is acceptable, and surprised that any club would approve of such a thing.

Way beyond what young fellas that age be told to eat. They're not doctors and have no idea of what specific needs someone not belonging to them might have.

Realt Dearg Sec

Mon2002 wrote: »

Can anyone who is involved in u13 boys Gaelic coaching ever issued diet plans and requested parents to undertake urine tests on their boys. My sister has informed me this has happened within her sons team. Personally I think this is outrageous.

Urine tests? Wtf? What possible purpose would that serve? Done of these coaches need a bit of fcuking perspective.

Bonniedog

Some of them must have been watching Last Chance U!

Infernal Racket

I mostly find that the parents who cause the most problems over their little darlings are those ones who drop their kids to training or a game and treat it as if it's a free hour of babysitting. They never contribute anything but negativity towards the team. They will show up with their whole family on the big day (county finals or whatever) and complain that their kids arent playing enough.

Get out in to the garden for 15 or 30 mins per day with your child. It's amazing how well a child comes on if they think their parent is actually interested and spends time watching them as they train and play

wirelessdude01

Mon2002 wrote:

Can anyone who is involved in u13 boys Gaelic coaching ever issued diet plans and requested parents to undertake urine tests on their boys. My sister has informed me this has happened within her sons team. Personally I think this is outrageous.

Can I ask what county this club is in? I'm aware of county development panels at older age groups and they don't do this. Advise on nutrition yes but testing no.

Bonniedog

The urine testing - and I admit to knowing nothing about nutrition that goes beyond potatoes and fish! - sounds particularly dodgy.

Can't see what relevance that would have to anything unless the coaches are testing for substance abuse! And they have no authority to do that, even if it was an issue among 12 year olds!

Edgware

Gerry G wrote: »

I mostly find that the parents who cause the most problems over their little darlings are those ones who drop their kids to training or a game and treat it as if it's a free hour of babysitting. They never contribute anything but negativity towards the team. They will show up with their whole family on the big day (county finals or whatever) and complain that their kids arent playing enough.

Get out in to the garden for 15 or 30 mins per day with your child. It's amazing how well a child comes on if they think their parent is actually interested and spends time watching them as they train and play

We have our football nursery on a Saturday 10 to 11 and hurling 11 to 12. Thats 2 hours activity for the kids that want to do both sports. Loads of the parents are brilliant in helping out doing warms up, stretching etc ( I know its a nursery but the kids think they're great doing their warm up). A few of the parents who wouldnt be GAA heads at all organised tea/coffee for the other parents who stay around to help. Another mother does a keep fit programme for a group of ladies while the kids are training.
And then of course we have the usual crew who drop the kids and disappear for two hours.
There's not much you can do about them. I have to say that they are good to buy a few club lottos or turn up for a Quiz night/ few pints.

citykat

Mon2002 wrote: »

Can anyone who is involved in u13 boys Gaelic coaching ever issued diet plans and requested parents to undertake urine tests on their boys. My sister has informed me this has happened within her sons team. Personally I think this is outrageous.

That’s taking the piss!