Top gear: Tesla Model 3 beats BMW M3 on a race track

unkel

Next month's Top Gear magazine cover:



Tesla Model 3 beats BMW M3 on a race track. Looking forward to reading that / seeing the video. I did not honestly believe that would happen for another few years. Sure the party trick of EVs is the incredible acceleration and the Tesla Model 3 is much, much faster off the line than the M3. Sure a 100k Tesla Model S is as fast as two million dollar hypercars like the Ferrari LaFerrari and the Porsche 918

But a new comer like Tesla actually making a car that drives so well it beats the car that has been the bench mark for performance saloons for decades???

Cookie_Monster

over 1 lap?
How about over a proper race distance?
Or the drive to the track, a few hours of laps on a track and drive home?

V8 Interceptor

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

over 1 lap?
How about over a proper race distance?
Or the drive to the track, a few hours of laps on a track and drive home?

Or how about one lap.

Impressive from Tesla.

Guy:Incognito

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

over 1 lap?
How about over a proper race distance?
Or the drive to the track, a few hours of laps on a track and drive home?

Every car on top gear has been a 1 lap shootout for nearly 2 decades now...........

Old diesel

It's another milestone for EVs.

Tesla supercharging also shows us what we can achieve on the charging side too.

Yes for sure other makes can't access the Tesla network - BUT you can see what we can achieve in terms of infrastructure for EVs when you see superchargers in action.

EVs are in a slightly awkward phase at the moment where those of us who follow them know some of what can be achieved.

But people still end up with negative impressions when you've got old crappy chargers and too few chargers - so user experience doesn't match what current tech at its best can deliver.

kippy

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

over 1 lap?
How about over a proper race distance?
Or the drive to the track, a few hours of laps on a track and drive home?

Would probably still beat it.......

unkel

Old diesel wrote: »

Tesla supercharging also shows us what we can achieve on the charging side too.

The funny thing is that soon the Ionity chargers (network setup all over Europe owned by BMW, Ford, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche, Volkswagen, etc. - the first one in Ireland went active this month) will have faster charging than the Tesla superchargers

But of course there would be no Ionity chargers but for Tesla superchargers

Titzon Toast

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

over 1 lap?
How about over a proper race distance?
Or the drive to the track, a few hours of laps on a track and drive home?

Lots of the M cars that got featured on TG's test track broke down after a day's hard driving there. Don't kid yourself.

Cabaal

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

over 1 lap?
How about over a proper race distance?
Or the drive to the track, a few hours of laps on a track and drive home?

It's always been 1 lap on TG.
are you suggesting it should be more just because it upsets you that an electric car won?

Del2005

Cabaal wrote: »

It's always been 1 lap on TG.
are you suggesting it should be more just because it upsets you that an electric car won?

Or saying that an entertainment show doing 1 lap isn't much use. It sounds good but who bases their purchase off a TV show lap time.

Lumen

Interesting that the Model 3 and M3 tested were only a thousand dollars apart on price (in the US, obvs).

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/25/tesla-model-3-performance-crushes-fossil-bmw-m3-around-race-track/

unkel

Lumen wrote: »

Interesting that the Model 3 and M3 tested were only a thousand dollars apart on price (in the US, obvs).

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/25/tesla-model-3-performance-crushes-fossil-bmw-m3-around-race-track/

Very interesting indeed. The M3 has always been very cheap in the USA (compared to here) and the Model 3 top of the range (performance) with all options loaded is overpriced / poor value for money imho. There is a massive margin on the that car, basically to keep Tesla afloat and to enable them to start making the lower end (lower margin) Model 3 cars and increase production globally

Dravokivich

Why are ye surprised it went faster around the track? It should be expected to do that. I never saw the lap times as anything impressive to be honest. Sure, it's only worth 1 point in F1.

Stallingrad

Incredible when you realise the M3 is a performance, halo model honed for generations.

The Tesla 3 is a family saloon 1 generation old.

The game has changed for sure.

Guy:Incognito

Del2005 wrote: »

Or saying that an entertainment show doing 1 lap isn't much use. It sounds good but who bases their purchase off a TV show lap time.

Who spends 100k on a car based on someone else's thoughts on it?

btkm8unsl0w5r4

The future is defo electric no doubt.

Problem here is that EV power delivery while immense is totally dull. Cars are all now so fast that people buy them (espically "Drivers car") for a lot of other reasons apart from outright speed or laptimes.

If all people were interested were lap-times everyone would have a 911 or a atom. The M3 has drama, noise, character and looks all things lacking in the tesla. I went to a runway event in dublin and there was a P100d there. It was immensely fast, but nobody was arsed watching it cause it was so dull, its also dies at the top end where a lot of the exotic stuff caught it back.

Tesla also appeal to a different group, not the car enthuast but the technology enthuast. When car companies start making EV like the upcoming porsche I think the car enthuast will take more notice. Tesla's while capable are not the car that will drag the petrol head away from the combustion engine, and really track battles like above are just click bait and do nothing but polarize the two camps more.

kyote00

For all the technical innovation and performance, the model 3 is very fugly inside..... imagine looking at this wall of plastic all day

ergonomic design for the driver is also questionable

The nissan leaf is a nicer place to be....

kyote00

kyote00 wrote: »

imagine looking at this wall of plastic all day

I know they're automated to an extent, but you'd be doing well to drive it from the middle of the back seats......

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

I know they're automated to an extent, but you'd be doing well to drive it from the middle of the back seats......

According to Musk, that is exactly what you will be doing before the end of next year, with FSD (full self driving) enabled and accepted by the regulators

But seriously, all new Teslas now have all the hardware as standard for FSD. Next version of the software can do this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlThdr3O5Qo

ted1

unkel wrote: »

The funny thing is that soon the Ionity chargers (network setup all over Europe owned by BMW, Ford, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche, Volkswagen, etc. - the first one in Ireland went active this month) will have faster charging than the Tesla superchargers

But of course there would be no Ionity chargers but for Tesla superchargers

But will they? Can the cars avail of the power? Aren’t Tesla preheating batteries to sustain a higher charge for longer.

Stallingrad

I despise Tesla interiors, car companies have spent forever working on ergonomics to make things as safe and user friendly as possible. Tesla don't have the money for that so they lash up a big screen and bury features under a myriad of menus, which all has to be done while not looking at the road. Testers are so seduced by the performance that it rarely gets mentioned.

Now conventional car makers are doing it so as to stay 'on trend', and the science of ergonomics gets thrown out for showroom wow factor.

kyote00

He has to finish the electric leaf blower first

creedp

For those that care much, the Audi e-tron interior is a little superior to the Tesla

Audi e-tron interior.jpg

Stallingrad

creedp wrote: »

For those that care much, the Audi e-tron interior is a little superior to the Tesla

Audi e-tron interior.jpg

This is were Tesla will suffer, day and night.

Old diesel

I fully expect Tesla to improve its interiors just like I am sure future Audi EVs will improve their efficiency.

kyote00

Hmm, statements to the market indicate that the model 3 interiors will now not be changed !

Production has been outstripping deliveries for the last 3 months - so Tesla has a developing excess inventory problem. $700m loss posted in Q1 and cash reserves down to ~$2b
At the same time, he is trying to open factories in China and delivery infrastructure in Europe for the model 3. Remember Model 3 was supposed to be EVs for the masses at low cost (35k) and high volume - that's what Wall st moguls bought into....

Its hard to see how, even the very talented Musk, can fight so many battles at the same time

My guess is that Tesla will merge or be taken over by a major motor company and asset stripped for the battery tech and powertrains.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/24/18514427/tesla-q1-2019-loss-model-3-elon-musk-earnings

Old diesel wrote: »

I fully expect Tesla to improve its interiors just like I am sure future Audi EVs will improve their efficiency.

Shefwedfan

Tesla decided to go with a big flat screen which they thought look futuristic but in reality it is the opposite. It is a clunky system and difficult to use while driving....it is a step back in terms of useability.

Nio have AI built into the car. This is the future. Why push buttons or use a screen when you can tell the car what to do.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hs3RXtZfeWM

The technology Nio has is alot better to Tesla but you hear a lot less about them because they don't do as much PR. Tesla tried to implement the option to swap out battery and couldn't do it, Nio have the technology and it is available in China, so on long journey no waiting for charging, just stick in a fully charged battery

Hopefully they launch in Europe

Neworder79

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but the Leaf dash is beautiful? Looks like a horrible mess of buttons added to something I'd expect my grandmother to drive! In general I find most of the early EV dashboards clunky adaptations of traditional ICE designs, sprinkled with ugly blue LEDs.

There is an element of the shock of the new here, we've grown used to very busy dashboards, layers of moulded affordances and protruding buttons for everything. I do think there is a need to retain tactile interfaces for some core functions rather than making everything virtual. But I haven't driven a Tesla either to experience in-use.

I like the Model 3 interior. Where as the Model S looked like a traditional saloon with a screen integrated, this feels like a first generation of native electric cars. Most of the reviews have been glowing about the minimalism combined with glass roof making for a refreshing calm interior. The full length vectored air vent gives more control of heating / cooling zones. A HUD projected on the glass would have added some further assurance to transitioning drivers sceptical new screen placement, but also to cost.

As Musk pointed out this week The Model 3 is designed for future of ride hailing and driving automation. They aim to "delete" the steering wheel in years to come.

Lumen

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Who spends 100k on a car based on someone else's thoughts on it?

Back in the 1990s I remmeber there being a number of performance cars that you had to order without a test drive. This is still the case with certain models.

I once bought a Caterham Fireblade and a Mini Cooper S largely on the basis of Evo magazine reviews. The Caterham was literally impossible to test since each car was built bespoke, and the Mini was practically impossible to test since I lived in London and would have had to drive for hours to get anywhere I could drive it properly, and dealers weren't giving all day test drives.

The Caterham turned out well, I still miss that car. But the Mini was a bit **** TBH, unless driven like an idiot.

Anyway, as far as track performance goes, nobody in their right mind would track an EV. The batteries would be constantly overheating, the range would be dire, you'd go through tires like nothing else (1800+kg!) and it'd probably fall apart over the kerbs.

Watch Tesla Model 3 Performance complete a lap at Nürburgring race track
https://electrek.co/2019/04/09/tesla-model-3-performance-nurburgring-race-track/

"9-minute lap Bridge-to-Gantry, but there was a lot of traffic and it is unclear if they were using Tesla’s Track Mode, which would be extremely useful on this track....As you can see in the video, the brake temperature alarm is going on for long periods of time"

Yeah, nope.

Sabre Man

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Tesla decided to go with a big flat screen which they thought look futuristic but in reality it is the opposite. It is a clunky system and difficult to use while driving....it is a step back in terms of useability.

Tesla tried to implement the option to swap out battery and couldn't do it, Nio have the technology and it is available in China, so on long journey no waiting for charging, just stick in a fully charged battery

I love my screeen. It makes it easy to update the car and it's not that hard to use, especially when you also use Autopilot. It also makes it very easy to set a destination compared to cars with smaller screens and awful keyboards for entering your destination.

There are are also buttons on the steering wheel that you can use to control temperature, fans, phone calls and get other information. There is also voice control.


Tesla offered battery swap at one location in California but it wasn't very popular. As batteries get bigger anc cheaper battery swapping is pointless.

Old diesel

Styling wise the Model 3 works well interior wise - in particular - its able to (styling wise) accept a black interior colour much better then many other cars.

Lets see how Audi turn out an EV in this price range - ie A4/A5/A6 - lets look at what they will deliver in terms of charging speed, efficiency of the battery - and what performance they will be offering.

The Porsche Taycan approach with 800 volt batteries and resulting 350 kw charging capability bodes well for future Audi efforts in this market segment. But that potential Audi EV in the same price range as the Model 3 is in the FUTURE.

The Model 3 is actually in other countries a REAL thing RIGHT NOW - not some well it MIGHT happen in the future.

Coming shortly to RHD.

Its fine to bash Tesla - but we must bear in mind that in modern car making history - what theyve achieved in terms of product delivery in around 10 years - starting from NOTHING is unprecedented.

kyote00

I drove a model 3 and a model S while in SF last year.

The model 3 was a terrible experience - like driving a milk float (I drove one of those also)....or a very minimalist Ikea kitchen. In the one I drove, the whole front dash panel would move when you pressed on the steering wheel or screen.

The model S on the other hand is excellent, inside and out.

Neworder79 wrote: »

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but the Leaf dash is beautiful? Looks like a horrible mess of buttons added to something I'd expect my grandmother to drive! In general I find most of the early EV dashboards clunky adaptations of traditional ICE designs, sprinkled with ugly blue LEDs.

There is an element of the shock of the new here, we've grown used to very busy dashboards, layers of moulded affordances and protruding buttons for everything. I do think there is a need to retain tactile interfaces for some core functions rather than making everything virtual. But I haven't driven a Tesla either to experience in-use.

I like the Model 3 interior. Where as the Model S looked like a traditional saloon with a screen integrated, this feels like a first generation of native electric cars. Most of the reviews have been glowing about the minimalism combined with glass roof making for a refreshing calm interior. The full length vectored air vent gives more control of heating / cooling zones. A HUD projected on the glass would have added some further assurance to transitioning drivers sceptical new screen placement, but also to cost.

As Musk pointed out this week The Model 3 is designed for future of ride hailing and driving automation. They aim to "delete" the steering wheel in years to come.

Oafley Jones

I've said it before, but the Top Trump figures for Telsas I always find a bit deceptive. Sure, they've massively quick 0-100 times, but only in an extremely narrow operating envelope e.g. charge state of over 95% etc. and after that they're completely ****ed for the charge and placed in cool down mode.

The difference between the M3 and the 3 is that the BMW will drive that lap again and again (tyres not withstanding) and drive straight home without any bother. The Tesla ain't doing that.

Old diesel

According to this https://insideevs.com/news/338678/tesla-model-3-performance-gets-track-tested-by-road-track/

The protective modes slow down the lap time (on a 1.5 mile circuit) by just a few seconds.

Old diesel

And heres an article about the top gear article....

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/25/tesla-model-3-performance-crushes-fossil-bmw-m3-around-race-track/

Obviously the writer is taking a pro EV look at the top gear article but he does note that the M3 BMW has had several generations of refinement - wheras the Model 3 is the VERY first generation of its type.

A highly relevant point - which reminds us AGAIN that what Tesla as a company have achieved in 10 years is unprecedented.

Let us reflect that 10 years ago - the Model S did NOT exist as a car you could buy (if you had the funds), Model 3 was only a twinkle in Elons eye.

Sure Tesla could be bought out - they could go burst - anything could happen.....

But let us saviour the achievement of Tesla not just in this Top Gear test - but overall - for now - in the present - enjoy it for what it is.

Del2005

unkel wrote: »

According to Musk, that is exactly what you will be doing before the end of next year, with FSD (full self driving) enabled and accepted by the regulators

But seriously, all new Teslas now have all the hardware as standard for FSD. Next version of the software can do this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlThdr3O5Qo

I work in a factory with automonus vehicles and in a controlled environment with people trained to avoid them we still have incidents every few days. So if anyone thinks that automonus vehicles will be driving our roads anytime soon they are going to be upset, we'll maybe have them on motorways but apart from their it's decades away. I'm not saying that humans don't crash more but people won't accept any RTCs from automonus vehicles.

ted1

creedp wrote: »

For those that care much, the Audi e-tron interior is a little superior to the Tesla

Audi e-tron interior.jpg

Haven’t they ramped down production significantly?

Shefwedfan

ted1 wrote: »

Haven’t they ramped down production significantly?

:p:p:p


According to Tesla they have......

ted1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

:p:p:p


According to Tesla they have......

Doesn’t say Tesla is the source.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/electrek.co/2019/04/18/audi-e-tron-electric-suv-production-reduce-battery-shortage/amp/

http://brusselstimes.com/brussels/15017/battery-shortage-forces-audi-brussels-to-slow-down-production

Shefwedfan

ted1 wrote: »

Doesn’t say Tesla is the source.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/electrek.co/2019/04/18/audi-e-tron-electric-suv-production-reduce-battery-shortage/amp/

http://brusselstimes.com/brussels/15017/battery-shortage-forces-audi-brussels-to-slow-down-production

Electrek = Tesla


It was discussed already on Tesla thread, no confirmation of anything apart from a mention of someone having a 1 month delay on shipping.....fairly standard for any car to change delivery dates, happens with Golf etc all the time....

Tesla pro-websites then flood the internet with "news" but cover the whole article with "reports" etc so they have no source and no idea it just gets clicks....


45k eTron this year....not too shabby

Wibbs

Neworder79 wrote: »

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but the Leaf dash is beautiful? Looks like a horrible mess of buttons added to something I'd expect my grandmother to drive!

I'm no Musk fanboy, but very much this. Whatever about its qualities as a city car(and it has those) and as an entry into EVs in general, the Leaf is to aesthetics, inside and out, what Quasimodo is to male modelling.

ted1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Electrek = Tesla


It was discussed already on Tesla thread, no confirmation of anything apart from a mention of someone having a 1 month delay on shipping.....fairly standard for any car to change delivery dates, happens with Golf etc all the time....

Tesla pro-websites then flood the internet with "news" but cover the whole article with "reports" etc so they have no source and no idea it just gets clicks....


45k eTron this year....not too shabby

The electrex references the Belgium site which I linked to. But you seemed to skip over that.

unkel

Del2005 wrote: »

I'm not saying that humans don't crash more but people won't accept any RTCs from automonus vehicles.

That's the big question. Musk reckons that once he can prove that fully self driving is 2-3 times safer than human driving, the regulators will approve that no one has to be behind the wheel any more. I think he is too optimistic there. But there will be a point (car 5 times safer, 10 times safer?) where this will happen.

And he says the opposite about people not accepting any RTC from an autonomous car. He reckons people will demand all cars be autonomous at some point in future.

Wailin

Old diesel wrote: »

And heres an article about the top gear article....

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/25/tesla-model-3-performance-crushes-fossil-bmw-m3-around-race-track/

Obviously the writer is taking a pro EV look at the top gear article but he does note that the M3 BMW has had several generations of refinement - wheras the Model 3 is the VERY first generation of its type.

A highly relevant point - which reminds us AGAIN that what Tesla as a company have achieved in 10 years is unprecedented.

Let us reflect that 10 years ago - the Model S did NOT exist as a car you could buy (if you had the funds), Model 3 was only a twinkle in Elons eye.

Sure Tesla could be bought out - they could go burst - anything could happen.....

But let us saviour the achievement of Tesla not just in this Top Gear test - but overall - for now - in the present - enjoy it for what it is.

You need to change your user name. New electric? Some fawning going on there.

Shefwedfan

ted1 wrote: »

The electrex references the Belgium site which I linked to. But you seemed to skip over that.

And the Belgium site says

“Delivery times for the e-tron have gone up by 2 months to 6 to 7 months. "Not an exceptional waiting time for an all-new Audi", says Audi's spokesperson in Belgium, Sofie Luyckx. During the Brussels Motor Show in January, delivery times of 4 to 5 months were assumed. It is not clear if the 2 additional months are due to production capacity or high demand (up 15%)”

Doesn’t sound like ramping down production to me?

kirving

Del2005 wrote: »

I work in a factory with automonus vehicles and in a controlled environment with people trained to avoid them we still have incidents every few days. So if anyone thinks that automonus vehicles will be driving our roads anytime soon they are going to be upset, we'll maybe have them on motorways but apart from their it's decades away. I'm not saying that humans don't crash more but people won't accept any RTCs from automonus vehicles.

On average, the most advanced autonomous car can drive over 17,000km without intervention from a safety driver.

That's in existence today, and is a far cry from a robot that's shoehorned into a factory to minimise costs. We have collaborative robots in work too, and even the best robot suppliers are no match for the worlds biggest tech companies putting their resources behind autonomous vehicles.

ted1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

And the Belgium site says

“Delivery times for the e-tron have gone up by 2 months to 6 to 7 months. "Not an exceptional waiting time for an all-new Audi", says Audi's spokesperson in Belgium, Sofie Luyckx. During the Brussels Motor Show in January, delivery times of 4 to 5 months were assumed. It is not clear if the 2 additional months are due to production capacity or high demand (up 15%)”

Doesn’t sound like ramping down production to me?

“
Carmaker Audi has lowered the 2019 production forecast for its Brussels plant where it builds the electric e-tron, by more than 10.000 cars to 45.242 units.“
20% reduction??

kyote00

Here is a very nice (if rather long) video from MIT on autonomous driving - giving a balanced view of current state of the art.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRxaMDDMWQQ

Shefwedfan

ted1 wrote: »

“
Carmaker Audi has lowered the 2019 production forecast for its Brussels plant where it builds the electric e-tron, by more than 10.000 cars to 45.242 units.“
20% reduction??

Yeah because “sources” are such a great provider of information

It’s rubbish.....the amount of c**p “car” website that have sprung up on the back of Tesla and not a decent review on any of them of an actual car is astounding....also the fact every article is rubbish with “report” and “sources” all over them....

Leonard Hofstadter

unkel wrote: »

He reckons people will demand all cars be autonomous at some point in future.

That should make anyone with even the faintest interest in cars or driving die s little inside. Driving a car with a well set up chassis, a nice gearbox, a nice sounding engine that loves to be revved, and communicative steering is one of life's greatest pleasures.

Del2005

Kevin Irving wrote: »

On average, the most advanced autonomous car can drive over 17,000km without intervention from a safety driver.

That's in existence today, and is a far cry from a robot that's shoehorned into a factory to minimise costs. We have collaborative robots in work too, and even the best robot suppliers are no match for the worlds biggest tech companies putting their resources behind autonomous vehicles.

I don't doubt that they can drive safely but people aren't logical. Also who wants to be the first company to release who they will kill in a crash?

Aircraft can fly themselves but people still want the largest contributer to air crashes, humans, in control.