120km per day, max €400pm finance

marketty

Could anyone give some suggestions? Head a bit fried looking at the various options, and not always easy to get a clear PCP figure from the various manufacturer websites. Just from a quick look, the eGolf looks to be better value and 0% PCP than the ioniq @ 5.9%, but I see a lot more ioniqs on the road...Nissan don't have the leaf on their PCP calculator??

Maybe brand new isn't the way to go?

ewj1978

2nd hand Leaf 30 would be well under 20k and easily do 120km a day.
Zoe 40 as well.

jusmeig

I'd add second hand Ioniq is a real nice car that can do well over 120km!

marketty

Thanks lads, I'm only starting to look into this so appreciate the input. If I went with a second hand leaf or ioniq as ye mention, putting 30k km a year on it, how many years do ya think I'd get before the range became an issue due to battery losses?

punisher5112

marketty wrote: »

Thanks lads, I'm only starting to look into this so appreciate the input. If I went with a second hand leaf or ioniq as ye mention, putting 30k km a year on it, how many years do ya think I'd get before the range became an issue due to battery losses?

Ioniq is holding up very well but Nissan are losing bars.

marketty

punisher5112 wrote:

Ioniq is holding up very well but Nissan are losing bars.

Very interesting, is it different battery tech or what's the difference there?
What's a realistic price for a nicely specced second hand ioniq do you think?

Mike9832

eGolf at 0% pcp looks a good idea

Much better car than Ioniq or Leaf

When the 3 years is up on pcp, you'd probably get a good deal on a VW ID

eGolf has an excellent top tier Samsung SDI battery, no degradation issues to worry about

NIMAN

punisher5112 wrote: »

Ioniq is holding up very well but Nissan are losing bars.

Maybe because they have been around longer?

Or are you hinting that Nissan Nissan batteries aren't as good as the hyundai ones?

punisher5112

NIMAN wrote: »

Maybe because they have been around longer?

Or are you hinting that Nissan Nissan batteries aren't as good as the hyundai ones?

No not at all the 1st gen were very poor and there is talk of the latest one following somewhat.

Mike9832

NIMAN wrote: »

Maybe because they have been around longer?

Or are you hinting that Nissan Nissan batteries aren't as good as the hyundai ones?

Nissan batteries are crap, it's widely known

Hyundai, VW, BMW, Tesla and all the other autogiants are using top tier Samsung, LG, Panasonic etc while Nissan are using something from a crowd formerly known as AESC who they invested in ( who they also couldn't give away )

Calahonda52

Mike9832 wrote: »

Nissan batteries are crap, it's widely known

By whom, other than you?
Where is the technical evidence for this statement?

listermint

Calahonda52 wrote: »

By whom, other than you?
Where is the technical evidence for this statement?

Don't they have inferior cooling system on the batteries.

marketty

Mike9832 wrote:

eGolf at 0% pcp looks a good idea

That's what I'm thinking at first glance, but I'm not seeing many of them on the road! Hard to pass up 0%!

Shefwedfan

marketty wrote: »

That's what I'm thinking at first glance, but I'm not seeing many of them on the road! Hard to pass up 0%!

You would be surprised how many eGolf have been bought in the last 2 years. Before that it was mostly imports from the UK as the dealers didn't stock


With the ramp up to ID all the main VW dealers are now selling.

You should be able to push for a deal as the dealers will be looking to shift.

If buying make sure they have the heat pump included

Round Cable

listermint wrote: »

Don't they have inferior cooling system on the batteries.

They have absolutely no active cooling.

slave1

Honesty, the misinformation posted recently on this forum. If you do not know what you’re posting about then stop, OP is advised a Leaf 30, not an early Leaf 24 Lizard or recent Leaf 40 and rapidgate. I have heard nothing or read nothing that would give me concern on a Leaf 30, at two years old our Leaf 30 battery state of health was over 100% and just look at high mileage UK 30s for sale and check their SOH with crude but indicative bars.
If charging at home then there would be pretty much zero heating issues and you can easily get 30k a year without rapid charging.

Mike9832

slave1 wrote: »

Honesty, the misinformation posted recently on this forum. If you do not know what you’re posting about then stop, OP is advised a Leaf 30, not an early Leaf 24 Lizard or recent Leaf 40 and rapidgate. I have heard nothing or read nothing that would give me concern on a Leaf 30, at two years old our Leaf 30 battery state of health was over 100% and just look at high mileage UK 30s for sale and check their SOH with crude but indicative bars.
If charging at home then there would be pretty much zero heating issues and you can easily get 30k a year without rapid charging.

Whatever about misinformation

A question was asked are batteries used in Nissan's as good as batteries used in Hyundai, VW etc

They are not, not by a long way, end of.

punisher5112

slave1 wrote: »

Honesty, the misinformation posted recently on this forum. If you do not know what you’re posting about then stop, OP is advised a Leaf 30, not an early Leaf 24 Lizard or recent Leaf 40 and rapidgate. I have heard nothing or read nothing that would give me concern on a Leaf 30, at two years old our Leaf 30 battery state of health was over 100% and just look at high mileage UK 30s for sale and check their SOH with crude but indicative bars.
If charging at home then there would be pretty much zero heating issues and you can easily get 30k a year without rapid charging.

Who has misinformed???

Please enlighten us.

Mike9832

marketty wrote: »

That's what I'm thinking at first glance, but I'm not seeing many of them on the road! Hard to pass up 0%!

I think it's a no brainer

Don't see anything competitive with it on finance

Nissan and Hyundai like you said have crap rates and going 2nd hand you'll get a crap rate from banks and credit union too

No risk with the pcp and eGolf is class tbf, never hear anything but good about them and you'll get a competitive offer to trade up after pcp is up

At 30k a year you'll save a fortune on fuel

marketty

Mike9832 wrote:

Don't see anything competitive with it on finance

Mike9832 wrote:

Nissan and Hyundai like you said have crap rates and going 2nd hand you'll get a crap rate from banks and credit union too

Very true, but curious about spec now. Seems to be a lot more options on the golf which add up quick and leave it several thousand more than the ioniq, finance rates not withstanding. Like the heat pump mentioned above, that's a 1k option on the golf but standard on the ioniq.

If spec was like for like at the same price eGolf would definitely make sense to me

Mike9832

Mike9832 wrote: »

Whatever about misinformation

A question was asked are batteries used in Nissan's as good as batteries used in Hyundai, VW etc

They are not, not by a long way, end of.

Which aspect of AESC batteries is worse than the competition? Need specifics. The battery pack design leads to worse heat dissipation than the distributed modules passively cooled VW uses but the L30 doesn't show any out of ordinary capacity degradation. The other makers apart from Nissan and Tesla keep the exact battery health information hidden (Torque is not a Leafspy or Teslaspy equivalent) so there is no raw data to compare. Nissan is the only EV showing the battery temperature to the user. When the eGolf rapidgates there is no indicator alarming the driver. The car just slows down charging and performance. That is not "miles better", just more like "what you don't know doesn't hurt you".

The jury is still out on L40 but seen as the early examples of L30 "degradation" was fixed by a software update and seen how the L40 degrades in steps exactly every 3 months suggests that it's a similar software issue too.

You and me are allowed to have an opinion on stuff but don't confuse your "knowledge" as facts. Or that you know what you're talking about. Or being an expert.

OP, the eGolf is a great car and the reason why there are not more of them is because VW can't build enough due to the battery supply constraints. The same applies to most of the makers of electric cars apart from Nissan. If you can buy one under your budget and you're happy with the size go for it. This would be my choice currently finances allowing.

The cheapest way to cater your commute is a 161-181 Nissan Leaf 30 (known here as L30) which can reliably do 120 km under any conditions. It's also has slightly more boot space than the competition if that matters to you. They are also very reliable and well thought out product but are not much of a driver's car if that matters to you. The upgraded L40 is better still. We have latter and it has been great.

If 4 seats is enough a 162-> BMW i3 would be an excellent choice. And Hyundai Ioniq of course is a great all arounder. Both these might fit in the budget too but not many for sale.

beauf

Does high mileage cause any issues for PCP?

marketty

samih wrote:

The cheapest way to cater your commute is a 161-181 Nissan Leaf 30 (known here as L30) which can reliably do 120 km under any conditions. It's also has slightly more boot space than the competition if that matters to you. They are also very reliable and well thought out product but are not much of a driver's car if that matters to you. The upgraded L40 is better still. We have latter and it has been great.

Great info, thanks. When you say it can do the 120km in all conditions, how much range are they getting in the real world? What's the degradation of the battery like? I know it's probably impossible to say how it will hold up long term, but I'd want it to still cover the distance in 5 years time

marketty

Another question, specific to the leaf, I see a couple on donedeal with over 100k km but still have 12 bars of battery capacity, is that suspicious at all? Is it possible for this to be 'clocked'? Or is it realistic? If it's genuine that's very encouraging

ei9go

0% 5 year HP, not PCP on Zoe

slave1

marketty wrote: »

Great info, thanks. When you say it can do the 120km in all conditions, how much range are they getting in the real world? What's the degradation of the battery like? I know it's probably impossible to say how it will hold up long term, but I'd want it to still cover the distance in 5 years time

My work commute is 108kms and mostly 100km hilly and twisty roads, I use pre-heating and AC always, I got home yesterday with 34% left in the battery and the battery is 97% SOH at three years old, I've never had less than 20% left and that was the absolute worst day with driving rain on very wet roads and very windy...

Shefwedfan

samih wrote: »

OP, the eGolf is a great car and the reason why there are not more of them is because VW can't build enough due to the battery supply constraints. The same applies to most of the makers of electric cars apart from Nissan. If you can buy one under your budget and you're happy with the size go for it. This would be my choice currently finances allowing.

The reason they don't build more eGolf is because the manufacuturing plant they use for eGolf is small. They converted a small plant so they could see exactly how to do it for when they want to start the ID....they have batteries


The eGolf is a lot more popular than VW expected, in the US people are travelling across the country to buy them. In central Europe they sold out and nobody could keep in stock. Even in little old Ireland our demand exceeded the supply.



VW would never invest huge money in moving eGolf to another factory because it was always going to be replaced with the ID. The next generation Golf will not have a BEV version.


In terms of battery I have no idea but I know people are on record that after 80k miles the battery is still at the same levels as when it left the factory.



Test drive the eGolf....then test drive the Leaf, that will quickly make the decision for you

KCross

marketty wrote: »

Another question, specific to the leaf, I see a couple on donedeal with over 100k km but still have 12 bars of battery capacity, is that suspicious at all? Is it possible for this to be 'clocked'? Or is it realistic? If it's genuine that's very encouraging

Time is the batteries biggest enemy, not miles driven.
100k km wouldnt be an issue. If the car is, say, less than 4yrs old it is quite likely to be still on 12 bars.

Now, if it were a 2012 with 100k km's on it and 12 bars I'd say that would be suspicious.

Shefwedfan

I am not so sure on the Leaf 30 either. I was talking to electric car supplier and he said the Leaf 30 will do about the same as the Gen 1 eGolf(26kWh). The Leaf kWh/100km is a lot worse to the eGolf.

The eGolf Gen 1 will do 120km per day but I would never say with no issue. Fire on heated seat, air con and floor it and you won't do it.

It does depend on your budget. The eGolf is maybe twice the price of the Leaf 30.

If going that direction why not the Niro 39kWh?

RedorDead

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The eGolf is a lot more popular than VW expected, in the US people are travelling across the country to buy them. In central Europe they sold out and nobody could keep in stock. Even in little old Ireland our demand exceeded the supply.

Numbers in Ireland as follows:

2015 New 6 Imported 0
2016 New 0 Imported 2
2017 New 10 Imported 4
2018 New 75 Imported 3
2019 New 115 Imported 5

Definitely a slow burner but flying now it would appear. As many said before - all limited by supply mainly. VW would do 3 or 4 times the volume if they got the cars.

Shefwedfan

RedorDead wrote: »

Numbers in Ireland as follows:

2015 New 6 Imported 0
2016 New 0 Imported 2
2017 New 10 Imported 4
2018 New 75 Imported 3
2019 New 115 Imported 5

Definitely a slow burner but flying now it would appear. As many said before - all limited by supply mainly. VW would do 3 or 4 times the volume if they got the cars.

Up till this year VW had 2 dealers selling, Liffey Valley and Cork. That was it. So even to sell 75 last year was good.



None of the other garages would sell or service them

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I am not so sure on the Leaf 30 either. I was talking to electric car supplier and he said the Leaf 30 will do about the same as the Gen 1 eGolf(26kWh). The Leaf kWh/100km is a lot worse to the eGolf.

The eGolf Gen 1 will do 120km per day but I would never say with no issue. Fire on heated seat, air con and floor it and you won't do it.

It does depend on your budget. The eGolf is maybe twice the price of the Leaf 30.

If going that direction why not the Niro 39kWh?

The efficiency of the two at that generation is about the same but the L30 has about 2 kWh of more energy to spend: 28 kWh vs. 26 kWh usable of the original eGolf. The LEAF also almost always has a heatpump heater which increases the range considerably during the winter months compared to the Golf so it would be the safer choice of the two for this kind of trip.

The ioniq also has 28 kWh usable but it is considerably more efficient than the other two at motorway speeds.

marketty

ei9go wrote:

0% 5 year HP, not PCP on Zoe

Sounds like a great deal, I'll have a look at it, but Zoe might just be a bit small

marketty

slave1 wrote:

My work commute is 108kms and mostly 100km hilly and twisty roads, I use pre-heating and AC always, I got home yesterday with 34% left in the battery and the battery is 97% SOH at three years old, I've never had less than 20% left and that was the absolute worst day with driving rain on very wet roads and very windy...

That's very reassuring thanks

marketty

samih wrote:

The ioniq also has 28 kWh usable but it is considerably more efficient than the other two at motorway speeds.

Good to know, I do about 80km motorway, 40km urban/backroads per day

Shefwedfan

marketty wrote: »

Good to know, I do about 80km motorway, 40km urban/backroads per day

I would say with any of the cars in the bracket below you willbe cutting it fine
eGolf 26kWh
Leaf 24KWh
Leaf 30kWh
Ioniq 28KWh


The Ioniq of course is the best of the bunch in terms of kWh/100km but is hard to buy second hand and expensive.



If you are talking about a new eGolf you might be better looking at the Niro 39kWh as it comes in around 33k and will have more range. Interior not as good as eGolf but you are paying less. So you get what you pay for.



You need to be aware the eGolf is kind of end of life as the ID3(Neo) will be replacing it, more info supposed to be coming today on it. Now that does mean you should be able to get a deal off the vendors as they will want to get rid of stock ASAP. You can potential put a deposit on the ID in the next few weeks. The dealer will try to say ID is a year out but that is incorrect.



Also to note, probably the price you pay for a new eGolf based on list price you would buy a 64kWh Niro for similar money. Just worth noting.

As I said it does depend a lot on budget. Also you need to test drive them all. The Leaf is not for everyone. It is a good car but it is not for everyone.

Happy_Harry

I am in a more or less similar situation.. 130 km daily commute round trip , of which 100km motorway.

I opted for the e-golf as it is simply a very nice car (and there is the fact that is was golf, I3, Zoe or Leaf on my company car scheme - don't ask me why)
Yes sure, range isn't the greatest, but it will be sufficient for my commute as well as the family taxi obligations. I ordered without heat pump as according to the range calculator the heat pump will add 10-15km at max in cold weather.
I am not one of those drivers that has temperature at 23/24 degrees; 17/18 is perfect for me, so I doubt the heat pump will do much for me, especially since I intend to preheat and if really cold use the heated seats.

The other consideration is that I am spoilt with a charger at work, so range for commuting should never become an issue and for longer distances (that are very rare occasions anyway) I will just use the wife's car.

For me not relevant, but it would be interesting to see what impact there is on the resale value from the fact that it will be the last generation of e-golfs.. Looking at how the lease price is going, it may well have a positive impact. But only time will tell.

Mike9832

samih wrote: »

Which aspect of AESC batteries is worse than the competition? Need specifics..

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=nissan+leaf+degradation

Round Cable

Mike9832 wrote: »

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=nissan+leaf+degradation

But is it the battery chemistry, or the lack of active cooling?

Mike9832

Round Cable wrote: »

But is it the battery chemistry, or the lack of active cooling?

Does it matter?

Round Cable

Mike9832 wrote: »

Does it matter?

Yes, if they actually have a solid battery chemistry then active cooling would make a difference. However, if the battery itself is crap then cooling it with liquid nitrogen wouldn't make a difference. So saying the battery is crap is too simplistic, without knowing what the underlying issues are.

Mike9832

Round Cable wrote: »

Yes, if they actually have a solid battery chemistry then active cooling would make a difference. However, if the battery itself is crap then cooling it with liquid nitrogen wouldn't make a difference. So saying the battery is crap is too simplistic, without knowing what the underlying issues are.

The battery is a package, as a package it's crap compared to competition, crap maybe too strong a word, inferior

Are you going to make your own cooling, don't see what your point is for the consumer

Should they buy ice packs and a heater to make own active cooling, seeing as Nissan couldn't be bothered?

Mike9832

Mike9832 wrote: »

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=nissan+leaf+degradation

Thought so, you have nothing constructive to add. The reason for that is because the points I made yesterday morning. Need to try harder.

Mike9832

samih wrote: »

Thought so, you have nothing constructive to add. The reason for that is because the points I made yesterday morning. Need to try harder.

What are you on about

Dog on the street knows Leaf batteries are the worst of any EV

Are the batteries in a Nissan Leaf inferior to rivals like Hyundai Ioniq, eGolf?

ELM327

Mike9832 wrote: »

What are you on about

Dog on the street knows Leaf batteries are the worst of any EV

Are the batteries in a Nissan Leaf inferior to rivals like Hyundai Ioniq, eGolf?

There's no convincing some extreme nissan owners imo

It's called ownership bias.

Soarer

I don't think it's ownership bias.

I think it's pedantry, as a defense mechanism against Thiery's ramblings.
Is there proof that the Leaf's battery is "worst of any EV"? Or is it the fact that they don't actively cool it? Would the LG/Samsung batteries last longer/fair better if they're weren't looked after? Conversely, would the Leaf battery work better if it was in an Ioniq?
I don't know enough (anything) about battery chemistry, so I don't know about the above.
But saying the Leaf battery is the worst, then subsequently saying the battery comes as a package, doesn't really contribute to anything.

"Dog on the street" knows the way the Leaf treats its batteries is "the worst of any EV".

But is there proof that the batteries themselves are any worse?

Round Cable

Mike9832 wrote: »

The battery is a package, as a package it's crap compared to competition, crap maybe too strong a word, inferior

Are you going to make your own cooling, don't see what your point is for the consumer

Should they buy ice packs and a heater to make own active cooling, seeing as Nissan couldn't be bothered?

Yes but the battery itself may be quite sophisticated and yet it gets slammed by many here as cheap or crap. I wonder how LG chem cells would hold up if swapped into a Leaf battery pack without cooling?

battery degradation depends on many factors.

Yes , heat is one, time spent at high temps,

Time spent at high charge %, i.e above 80%

Time spent at low SOC , i.e below 10%

Cycling, i.e, charging , discharging.

Charging and discharging "C" rates and whether manufacturers stick within these limits but also whether the cell manufacturers over exaggerated claims of tolerance to heat, and C rates which often happens in the battery world.

Also the battery chemistry itself.

So in other words, no two batteries will experience the same circumstances of operation and will degrade differently but the light at the end of this tunnel is that currently cycling , ( charging and discharging ) is the main cause of degradation + time but as batteries get larger cycling becomes less of an issue and larger batteries will still be useful when they degrade, for instance, a 20% degradation is not as bad on a 64 Kwh battery as it is on a 24 Kwh battery.

+ batteries are getting better , the i3 33 Kwh if Samsung's claims are correct should expect around 550,000 Kms and still have 80% battery capacity.

After 2 years and 54,000 Kms my i3 33 kwh still shows 100% capacity. The Leaf 24 Kwh did not however, I would have had around 60K Kms after 2 years in the Leaf not a huge difference. The i3 is more efficient despite not having a heat pump + it has a larger battery, it rarely sees much below 40% - 50% the Leaf often got to low battery warning , around 18% if I remember correctly.

Is it better to have cooling ? yes it is, but it's also just as beneficial to have heating because fast charging is not so fast with a cold battery. This is another area where batteries need to improve.

marketty

marketty wrote: »

Could anyone give some suggestions? Head a bit fried looking at the various options, and not always easy to get a clear PCP figure from the various manufacturer websites. Just from a quick look, the eGolf looks to be better value and 0% PCP than the ioniq @ 5.9%, but I see a lot more ioniqs on the road...Nissan don't have the leaf on their PCP calculator??

Maybe brand new isn't the way to go?

PCP is a great way to buy cars but beware of what you're getting into. I pay 458 pm month with 10 K deposit, got the Rex with 9,500 Kms 9 months old.

BMW i3 33 Kwh can do this commute no problem, my commute is 142 Kms and can do this all year around and it has the Rex for longer trips when the battery runs low or chargers are broken or in use taking up to 1 hr + to wait then you have to charge, if there's a queue you could have to wait up to 2 hrs before you get to start your own charge, the i3 is always driven by the electric motor. it can go anywhere any time. The generator only comes on when needed.

30 Kwh Leaf can too depending if there is any battery degradation.

Ioniq will do it.

newer E-golf.

Depending on the deposit you wish to pay up front you can get the 400 PM you're after.

marketty

Deleted User wrote:

30 Kwh Leaf can too depending if there is any battery degradation.

Looking at various 30kwh leafs online, any that show a picture of the dash all seem to still have 12 bars, even with 100k km+. Is that suspicious at all in your opinion? Is there another way to verify the state of the battery?