Waterford Airport

lufties

Anyone know the latest? I was reading that Ross and Halligan are still deliberating about a runway extension. It'll probably be 5 years before anything gets flying commercially again from WAT. Its sad really, the South East is one of the most beautiful parts of Ireland. So much potential, with a catchment area of Tipp, Waterford, Wexford and Kilkenny.

Storm 10

At least you have an Airport Varadakar was the Minister responsible for closing Galway Airport by denying the 100k they needed to stay open, it's a disgrace to see it closed and you have Galway City and County Councils who now own it not having a clue what to do with it, no better crowd to ruin it like they have done with all the traffic chaos in Galway.

lufties

Storm 10 wrote: »

At least you have an Airport Varadakar was the Minister responsible for closing Galway Airport by denying the 100k they needed to stay open, it's a disgrace to see it closed and you have Galway City and County Councils who now own it not having a clue what to do with it, no better crowd to ruin it like they have done with all the traffic chaos in Galway.

Yeah, I suppose either side of Galway is SNN and NOC. Traffic chaos in Galway is going on for as long as I can remember. Anything outside Dublin seems to get ignored.
I think waterford has huge potential, get some maintenance hangars in there aswell.

nlrkjos

Mightn't be a bad idea to re-locate Walsh Park out there, 20+minutes from the city, level ground and plenty of parking ! I'm not being silly here but do you honestly think Lord Ross has a care for the airport ? Gobdaw would bring it to stepaside if he had his way, Halligan hasn't the power or support that the like of the Really Hays in Kerry have. Cork is too well established for tourists flying in to the south.. the GAA should make a play for it.

Storm 10

lufties wrote: »

Yeah, I suppose either side of Galway is SNN and NOC. Traffic chaos in Galway is going on for as long as I can remember. Anything outside Dublin seems to get ignored.
I think waterford has huge potential, get some maintenance hangars in there aswell.

Well you can also say either side of Waterford is Cork and Dublin , I still find it hard to believe when it was open you could fly to London, Edinburgh, Belfast, Manchester, Cork, Dublin and Summer flights to Lorient and Malaga it's badly missed

lufties

nlrkjos wrote: »

Mightn't be a bad idea to re-locate Walsh Park out there, 20+minutes from the city, level ground and plenty of parking ! I'm not being silly here but do you honestly think Lord Ross has a care for the airport ? Gobdaw would bring it to stepaside if he had his way, Halligan hasn't the power or support that the like of the Really Hays in Kerry have. Cork is too well established for tourists flying in to the south.. the GAA should make a play for it.

Yeah Ross couldn't give a monkeys, halligan is another Mattie McGrath, all hot air.
What would the GAA gain from it?

nlrkjos

lufties wrote: »

Yeah Ross couldn't give a monkeys, halligan is another Mattie McGrath, all hot air.
What would the GAA gain from it?

Its the GAA supporters and Waterford people in general will gain, they are a great crowd down there and deserve a daecent stadium... nice gaff for concerts too, make a 25,000 seater, it couldn't cost as much as Pairc Ui Frank Murphy here..spin offs could be big rugby/soccer/boxing matches.. big conference center in the sunny SE, get WIT involved and who knows where it could go ! I'm just saying like..because an airport will never really work there.

fg1406

Storm 10 wrote: »

Well you can also say either side of Waterford is Cork and Dublin , I still find it hard to believe when it was open you could fly to London, Edinburgh, Belfast, Manchester, Cork, Dublin and Summer flights to Lorient and Malaga it's badly missed

I used it a few times and it was very convenient. 30 mins to the front door from home and no queues. However, the main reason I didn’t use it as my first choice for UK flights was the cost. Even factoring in parking, fuel, M50 toll, I could get a return flight to BHX, MAN etc with FR or EI for €40-€50 whereas flying ex Waterford was costing upwards of €120 each way.

lufties

fg1406 wrote: »

I used it a few times and it was very convenient. 30 mins to the front door from home and no queues. However, the main reason I didn’t use it as my first choice for UK flights was the cost. Even factoring in parking, fuel, M50 toll, I could get a return flight to BHX, MAN etc with FR or EI for €40-€50 whereas flying ex Waterford was costing upwards of €120 each way.

I agree regarding cost. I was working at LGW a few years ago, flying over and back to dub and bussing it to Limerick was cheaper than flying from snn. I remember flights from SNN to LGW were over 400 euro return with FR, the times were crap too. Supply and demand I guess. The regional airports have benefits but pricier.

roundymac

No need for it, perfectly good airports to the West and North (Cork & Dublin), I know its a bit of a bummer having to travel but in all fairness a little bit of common sense is needed here.

lufties

roundymac wrote: »

No need for it, perfectly good airports to the West and North (Cork & Dublin), I know its a bit of a bummer having to travel but in all fairness a little bit of common sense is needed here.

Well there's no denying it would be great for the region. Trying getting to a small town in Tipp from Dublin when you only live across the pond is a pain.

faoiarvok

lufties wrote: »

Well there's no denying it would be great for the region. Trying getting to a small town in Tipp from Dublin when you only live across the pond is a pain.

I assume we’re talking public transport?

Are the links from Waterford much better?

lufties

faoiarvok wrote: »

I assume we’re talking public transport?

Are the links from Waterford much better?

Yes public transport. Well for me its closer to my hometown and Waterford city has regular buses. My point is really that for short hips to the UK WAT would be very handy, a bit like NOC and KIR.

Agent Smith

Move the air-corp to it, And Open Baldonall as a 2nd airport for dublin?

L1011

Dublin does not need a second airport.

jjbrien

I was thinking about WAT the other day. I did some training there a long time ago. They used to collect a €10 fee at check-in to pay for the Runway extension I paid it but the runway was never extended. If they do getthe runway extended they are going to need to upgrade the terminal too. When I was there there was no baggage scanner for checking bags. There was also no belt for bagging incoming and outgoing.

They will also have to upgrade the security scanners and passenger x-ray machines to meet the new security standards.

Also not sure if the terminal could handle a 737 in its current state, the ramp will need an overhaul as well.

L1011

They have scanners for maybe a decade now

Stovepipe

Right now, its not even on a par with Exeter or the other smaller regionals in the UK. As with so many other endeavors, the paying public stayed away in droves. Sligo, Galway, Waterford have all been deserted by the population of their own catchment areas, when they should be thriving. Knock works because it has Ryanair's 737s and it has suppressed Sligo and Galway, both of which should be bursting with tourists and locals alike. Sligo is essentially too short for jets and is in a very confined location. Galway is too short for jets and it is a criminal waste of an airport, when it should be flat out with tourists. God knows how Carrickfin is still open, when the population of the hinterland uses Derry airport. As for Waterford, why is there no night cargo operation? Why is there no Cityjet RJ to London City? No BA A319 to London Heathrow?

regards
Stovepipe

lufties

Stovepipe wrote: »

Right now, its not even on a par with Exeter or the other smaller regionals in the UK. As with so many other endeavors, the paying public stayed away in droves. Sligo, Galway, Waterford have all been deserted by the population of their own catchment areas, when they should be thriving. Knock works because it has Ryanair's 737s and it has suppressed Sligo and Galway, both of which should be bursting with tourists and locals alike. Sligo is essentially too short for jets and is in a very confined location. Galway is too short for jets and it is a criminal waste of an airport, when it should be flat out with tourists. God knows how Carrickfin is still open, when the population of the hinterland uses Derry airport. As for Waterford, why is there no night cargo operation? Why is there no Cityjet RJ to London City? No BA A319 to London Heathrow?

regards
Stovepipe

Regarding WAT, you'd be more likely to have flybe and stobart in there than BA or Cityjet. Cityjet doesn't even fly from or to SNN, nor does BA other than an A318 biz class transitting through to JFK.

notharrypotter

Stovepipe wrote: »

Sligo, Galway, Waterford have all been deserted by the population of their own catchment areas,

. As for Waterford, why is there no night cargo operation?


regards
Stovepipe

2 separate questions.


Regarding the "catchment" argument.
Quite simply there is insufficient people.
Look at any of the maps that the airport's publish denoting their "catchment" and it would make a gerrymandering politician blush.


Regarding the night time cargo simply no demand.
FexEx stopped the Cork leg on the ATR because it made no sense.

Stovepipe

I disagree. Galway's population pool is much greater than Knock's, in a heartbeat, yet they couldnt even sustain an ATR operation. When I asked locals about it, they said that they hated the turboprops (vomit comets), the flight was too long from the UK and they couldnt fly to mainland Europe direct and they wanted jets, but the airport was too small. They hated having to go to Knock and would much rather support the local economy but a jet-capable runway never happened.

Chris_5339762

Yet they had the old Arvo doing a Galway - Waterford - Amsterdam service which they didn't use either.

Both Galway and Knock are not needed anyway. One or the other is all the area can support realistically.

Thats the problem with Waterford too. Cork and Dublin are that bit too close, nice as the odd flight would be.

jjbrien

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Yet they had the old Arvo doing a Galway - Waterford - Amsterdam service which they didn't use either.

Both Galway and Knock are not needed anyway. One or the other is all the area can support realistically.

Thats the problem with Waterford too. Cork and Dublin are that bit too close, nice as the odd flight would be.

You could say the same with Galway really as Dublin is not that far due to the new m6 and shannon is just down the road too.

The only way I can see Waterford doing well is if they do manage to get a runway to support Ryanair flights. Waterford could compete then on cheap landing and handling fees against Cork and Dublin.

ExoPolitic

This whole thread has missed the point completely. It's not about us locals using the airport, its about big business choosing to locate in the South East because of Waterford airport. With the new quay developments in Waterford etc it has got international interest etc.

The problem without being able to visit the south east in a day from big European cities is what stops big businesses setting up offices here in the SE.

Why set up where it takes a three day trip to do a meeting when you could set up else where and only have to dedicate one day to it.

The locals in the SE benefit by also having access to those flights...

It's more about the jobs the airport will bring in i.e. the wider effect, rather than where we can go on holiday to.

Masala

ExoPolitic wrote: »

This whole thread has missed the point completely. It's not about us locals using the airport, its about big business choosing to locate in the South East because of Waterford airport. With the new quay developments in Waterford etc it has got international interest etc.

The problem without being able to visit the south east in a day from big European cities is what stops big businesses setting up offices here in the SE.

Why set up where it takes a three day trip to do a meeting when you could set up else where and only have to dedicate one day to it.

The locals in the SE benefit by also having access to those flights...

It's more about the jobs the airport will bring in i.e. the wider effect, rather than where we can go on holiday to.

Don't see any multi nationals in Kerry or Donegal for that matter coming cos of an airport. In fact Kerry Group shifted their HQ to Naas.

Cookiemunster

ExoPolitic wrote: »

This whole thread has missed the point completely. It's not about us locals using the airport, its about big business choosing to locate in the South East because of Waterford airport. With the new quay developments in Waterford etc it has got international interest etc.

The problem without being able to visit the south east in a day from big European cities is what stops big businesses setting up offices here in the SE.

Why set up where it takes a three day trip to do a meeting when you could set up else where and only have to dedicate one day to it.

The locals in the SE benefit by also having access to those flights...

It's more about the jobs the airport will bring in i.e. the wider effect, rather than where we can go on holiday to.

Personally I think this argument is overblown. DUB is only 2 hours away by motoway. That's not a long distance in the US. The HQ of the company I work for is 2hrs from Logan.

Stovepipe

The business park attached to the airport brings in more money and jobs than the airport itself. As an active airport, it is overly dependent on the presence of SAR / the occasional business jet / light aviation and domestic traffic like the Air Corps to keep it open. It should have an active tie in with local industries for cargo flights (instead of being forced by Fedex to ship everything via Dublin), even seasonal routes by turboprop or small jet for summer tourism, tie ins with local colleges for educational work. I'm sure the local Chamber of Commerce is probably sick of hearing about the airport but if it closes down, it won't get replaced. I know it's a hackneyed phrase but people need to start thinking outside the box and get things done; summer airshows, tied in with the Tall Ships; hold track days for car enthusiasts; do what they do in the UK and hold public events like Saturday markets (they do it in Sligo airport) or vintage car rallies (or other kinds of rallies and open days). Anything that makes viable use of an open space and generates income for the airport.

lufties

Stovepipe wrote: »

The business park attached to the airport brings in more money and jobs than the airport itself. As an active airport, it is overly dependent on the presence of SAR / the occasional business jet / light aviation and domestic traffic like the Air Corps to keep it open. It should have an active tie in with local industries for cargo flights (instead of being forced by Fedex to ship everything via Dublin), even seasonal routes by turboprop or small jet for summer tourism, tie ins with local colleges for educational work. I'm sure the local Chamber of Commerce is probably sick of hearing about the airport but if it closes down, it won't get replaced. I know it's a hackneyed phrase but people need to start thinking outside the box and get things done; summer airshows, tied in with the Tall Ships; hold track days for car enthusiasts; do what they do in the UK and hold public events like Saturday markets (they do it in Sligo airport) or vintage car rallies (or other kinds of rallies and open days). Anything that makes viable use of an open space and generates income for the airport.

True enough, the south east is still recovering from the 2008 economic crash, spiritually and other ways. Personally I love County Waterford, and Cork just never interested me much (probably as a Tipp man, the accent drives me bananas).
I currently work at Leeds airport and see how its completely maxed out in capacity due to the success of Jet2. WAT needs an airline or maintenance company to invest in it, but first a better runways infrastructure is needed. The government need to get the finger. We really do get the short straw with politicians in Ireland.. Beyond useless!

Dum_Dum

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Personally I think this argument is overblown. DUB is only 2 hours away by motoway. That's not a long distance in the US. The HQ of the company I work for is 2hrs from Logan.

Waterford is not 2 hours from Dublin Airport. It takes half a day to get there. Congestion in the Dublin area makes a farce of indicative journey times. In fact Waterford isn't 'near' anywhere; and the region is serves is unique in that it is the only region without a functioning airport.

Storm 10

Dum_Dum wrote: »

Waterford is not 2 hours from Dublin Airport. It takes half a day to get there. Congestion in the Dublin area makes a farce of indicative journey times. In fact Waterford isn't 'near' anywhere; and the region is serves is unique in that it is the only region without a functioning airport.

I've done Waterford to Dublin on the M9 one hour 55 minutes don't know where your going with half a day.

SweetCaliber

Dum_Dum wrote: »

Waterford is not 2 hours from Dublin Airport. It takes half a day to get there. Congestion in the Dublin area makes a farce of indicative journey times. In fact Waterford isn't 'near' anywhere; and the region is serves is unique in that it is the only region without a functioning airport.

Drove to the airport yesterday and it took me 2 hours 10 minutes including the roadworks at Naas and general M50/M1 traffic.

Definitely does not take half a day unless you take the old road through all the towns and not the motorway.

Stovepipe

If you decided to drive from the centre of Waterford to O'Connell Street, Dublin, that's 2h 30 right away. If you stay on motorways, you shave a lot off but certain choke points make the journey very tedious.

marno21

Of the 5 cities for development in the National Development Plan, Waterford is by far the worst connected in terms of airports. Cork and Dublin are both 100km+ away. Galway has Shannon and Knock, and the other 3 cities have obvious connections.

If the NDP is focused on these cities and international connectivity is a key attribute of these cities then it makes sense to spend the relatively small sum on the runway extension.

JCX BXC

In terms of attracting cargo flights, from who and where? Cork lost its only cargo flight to Shannon about a year or so ago, and that was only on an ATR42! There's no market for cargo, (there's no market for several things!), any suggestion that this runway will bring all these cargo flights that will be great for the local area is airy fairy, this won't happen.

lufties

JCX BXC wrote: »

In terms of attracting cargo flights, from who and where? Cork lost its only cargo flight to Shannon about a year or so ago, and that was only on an ATR42! There's no market for cargo, (there's no market for several things!), any suggestion that this runway will bring all these cargo flights that will be great for the local area is airy fairy, this won't happen.

No market for cargo, however there is a pax market. NOC and KIR do well, why can't WAT?

Masala

lufties wrote: »

No market for cargo, however there is a pax market. NOC and KIR do well, why can't WAT?

..... oh no... it's Groundhog Day re-run!! Am off to the pub while the sun is shining..

ExoPolitic

SweetCaliber wrote: »

Drove to the airport yesterday and it took me 2 hours 10 minutes including the roadworks at Naas and general M50/M1 traffic.

Definitely does not take half a day unless you take the old road through all the towns and not the motorway.

Try leaving your home in Waterford then to catch a flight that leaves in two hours and ten minutes time from Dublin airport... Good luck with that one!

Realistically the latest I leave is 4 hours, and usually leave 5 hours before.

L1011

The reality is that with currently available airframes and global pilot shortages, no routes are viable. Extending the runway may help a little in allowing 737s or big RJs but it's far from guaranteed

Not enough people are willing to pay the premium over DUB

Stovepipe

JCX BXC wrote: »

In terms of attracting cargo flights, from who and where? Cork lost its only cargo flight to Shannon about a year or so ago, and that was only on an ATR42! There's no market for cargo, (there's no market for several things!), any suggestion that this runway will bring all these cargo flights that will be great for the local area is airy fairy, this won't happen.

It seems to me that the lifting of cargo, big or small, State or private, out of the Republic has been forcibly centralised to Dublin. I recall seeing an operator shipping fresh (live) seafood out of Carrickfin, having to unload them in Dublin and reload them onto an EI flight to go to Europe. Now, to me, that was so inefficient, it slashed the potential profit from that seafood by greatly increasing the delivery time and in short order, it stopped. I'll bet they transhipped them to Derry via road and got them away and saved costs and made a profit. I also suspect that manufacturers and retailers in regional centres like Waterford and Sligo, who ship out of the State, are so conditioned to using groupage road freight, that the concept of using fast, daily, high speed aerial freight is unknown to them.I'll bet shipping by air is not sufficiently marketed to manufacturers and suppliers outside Dublin.

L1011

Stovepipe wrote: »

It seems to me that the lifting of cargo, big or small, State or private, out of the Republic has been forcibly centralised to Dublin. I recall seeing an operator shipping fresh (live) seafood out of Carrickfin, having to unload them in Dublin and reload them onto an EI flight to go to Europe. Now, to me, that was so inefficient, it slashed the potential profit from that seafood by greatly increasing the delivery time and in short order, it stopped. I'll bet they transhipped them to Derry via road and got them away and saved costs and made a profit. I also suspect that manufacturers and retailers in regional centres like Waterford and Sligo, who ship out of the State, are so conditioned to using groupage road freight, that the concept of using fast, daily, high speed aerial freight is unknown to them.I'll bet shipping by air is not sufficiently marketed to manufacturers and suppliers outside Dublin.

Who carries cargo out of LDY?

faoiarvok

Stovepipe wrote: »

It seems to me that the lifting of cargo, big or small, State or private, out of the Republic has been forcibly centralised to Dublin.

Shannon does a fair amount of cargo.

lufties

Masala wrote: »

..... oh no... it's Groundhog Day re-run!! Am off to the pub while the sun is shining..

Hope you choked on your bacon fries.

Yurt2

Is there any case to be made for Ireland to have one mega-airport like Incheon in Korea or Schiphol in the Netherlands? Close down the rest of them and plonk it in the midlands.

road_high

There are too many airports in Munster in particular (4 airports serving a million or so). Shannon, cork and Kerry are all too near eachother dipping into the same catchments. Classic case of parish pump politics backfiring on everyone with the result no one is getting a proper service. I’d leave Kerry as it’s pretty isolated and have built an airport between cork and limerick to serve both

roundymac

road_high wrote: »

There are too many airports in Munster in particular (4 airports serving a million or so). Shannon, cork and Kerry are all too near eachother dipping into the same catchments. Classic case of parish pump politics backfiring on everyone with the result no one is getting a proper service. I’d leave Kerry as it’s pretty isolated and have built an airport between cork and limerick to serve both

Thank god your not in charge.

road_high

roundymac wrote: »

Thank god your not in charge.

Yea god forbid we might have a viable airport in the right
Location with more services- it’s better have one at every parish pump with flights to nowhere! Sure why not put one in every county? Tipp is missing out
There isn’t the business to support cork and snn as major international hubs as their constant struggles for passengers evidence

Dum_Dum

road_high wrote: »

Yea god forbid we might have a viable airport in the right
Location with more services- it’s better have one at every parish pump with flights to nowhere! Sure why not put one in every county? Tipp is missing out
There isn’t the business to support cork and snn as major international hubs as their constant struggles for passengers evidence

The only region not served is the South East. It's not a parish - it's a region.



Who says the airports you mention need to be major international hubs? That place will always be Dublin. Nobody minds the odd trek to Dublin for the occasional flight to North America or Asia. But for all other flights to Britain and the near-continent what's wrong with a regional airport?

Dum_Dum

Yurt! wrote: »

Is there any case to be made for Ireland to have one mega-airport like Incheon in Korea or Schiphol in the Netherlands? Close down the rest of them and plonk it in the midlands.

For what problem does this mega-hub solution solve? The only region unserved is the South East: cost of extending the runway approx €12 million. A mega-hub in the midlands would many billions. €12 million looks like a bargain.

JCX BXC

Dum_Dum wrote: »

For what problem does this mega-hub solution solve? The only region unserved is the South East: cost of extending the runway approx €12 million. A mega-hub in the midlands would many billions. €12 million looks like a bargain.

€12 million is only a bargain if it results in a functioning airport. If not, it's an expensive piece of tarmac.

road_high

Dum_Dum wrote: »

The only region not served is the South East. It's not a parish - it's a region.



Who says the airports you mention need to be major international hubs? That place will always be Dublin. Nobody minds the odd trek to Dublin for the occasional flight to North America or Asia. But for all other flights to Britain and the near-continent what's wrong with a regional airport?

It’s pointless using the south east region as an argument- most if it is part of the GDA like it or not. If WAT is to be viable that’s where the majority of it’s customers will have to come from- the rest of Munster is saturated with airports as it is

Dum_Dum

road_high wrote: »

It’s pointless using the south east region as an argument- most if it is part of the GDA like it or not. If WAT is to be viable that’s where the majority of it’s customers will have to come from- the rest of Munster is saturated with airports as it is

So what's your solution? The solution should cost less than 12 million.


Maybe you don't think there's a problem that needs solving? It's OK for a region (or Waterford in particular; to play Devil's advocate) to not have reasonable access to air services? Would you expect such a place to be as successful and to have similar opportunities vis-a-vis as places that do?