Airing Religious Views

BattleCorp

Firstly, I think religion is stupid. But hey, if you want to partake, work away.
Secondly, I have no problem with gay people. Live and let live.

https://news.sky.com/story/israel-folau-rugby-star-to-be-sacked-over-anti-gay-social-media-post-11694460

That said, it's troubling me that Israel Folou is in so much hot water for airing his own religious views that homosexuals are going to go to hell. To be fair, that's pretty much what the Catholic church teach. It's pretty much what's written in the bible. I think Islam pretty much teaches the same.

So why is he being sacked for airing his religious views, views that are common amongst many? Is it now a crime to air your religious views?

Is it really discrimination to say that gays are going to hell, especially when it's the teaching of many churches around the world?

I could understand the outrage if he said to get your pitchfork and kill gays but he did nothing of the sort.

Or is it a case of it's ok to believe what you like but keep your mouth shut.

Even if the view is something that I don't agree with, I don't agree with silencing that view. If we go down that road, it's not a nice place to end up.

weldoninhio

BattleCorp wrote: »

Firstly, I think religion is stupid. But hey, if you want to partake, work away.
Secondly, I have no problem with gay people. Live and let live.

https://news.sky.com/story/israel-folau-rugby-star-to-be-sacked-over-anti-gay-social-media-post-11694460

That said, it's troubling me that Israel Folou is in so much hot water for airing his own religious views that homosexuals are going to go to hell. To be fair, that's pretty much what the Catholic church teach. It's pretty much what's written in the bible. I think Islam pretty much teaches the same.

So why is he being sacked for airing his religious views, views that are common amongst many? Is it now a crime to air your religious views?

Is it really discrimination to say that gays are going to hell, especially when it's the teaching of many churches around the world?

I could understand the outrage if he said to get your pitchfork and kill gays but he did nothing of the sort.

Or is it a case of it's ok to believe what you like but keep your mouth shut.

Even if the view is something that I don't agree with, I don't agree with silencing that view. If we go down that road, it's not a nice place to end up.

The minority get to tell us now what is right and what is wrong.

Captain Flaps

He's exercising his freedom of speech, he won't go to jail for it and it's not a crime. His employer has simply exercised their own right to disagree with him and assert that such beliefs are at odds with the ethos of their organisation so they have severed ties with him. I don't see a problem with this. He's not been silenced at all, he's still free to post whatever he wants on social media (although instagram are equally free to remove him if they choose).

Too many people conflate freedom to air views with the right to a platform. He can express his views anywhere he wants at any time, but nobody has to entertain him if they don't want to.

Deebles McBeebles

I'd have more sympathy for him if it wasn't such a particularly sh*tty view.

valoren

It's a personal belief. He is free to express his views no matter how controversial they are however, he is (was!) under contract and the people/organisation who gave him that contract can deem what he does or says as gross misconduct and given that what he's said is flagrant and controversial they themselves have the freedom to sever ties, disassociate themselves from him and his comments. That should be no surprise to him and other's. He did it before and got a warning, did it again and got sacked.

riffmongous

He's just another hypocritical religious type obsessed with the gays and others going to Hell while raking in the cash and buying flash cars, scum

Beta Ray Bill

The Rule in 2019 is:
You're not allowed to say anything that might "trigger" some mad person or upset a delicate snow flake.

Basically the world has to pretend to be super inclusive, accepting and culturally diverse even though it really isn't.

If he believes that, then fine. (Who cares!?)
But he was an absolute IDIOT for saying it on social media, it's cost him his career.

Day Lewin

BattleCorp wrote: »

Firstly, I think religion is stupid. But hey, if you want to partake, work away.
Secondly, I have no problem with gay people. Live and let live.

It's a great opening line. You're so virtuous. #swoons

sbsquarepants

First up - I'm an atheist - I believe gays are going to exact same place as I am, back into the void!

I'm also very much a live and let live type - straight, gay, and anywhere in between doesn't bother me in the slightest. Stick what you want, where you want!

But I can't see the problem with what Falau said (Apart from the usual hysterical PC bollox) - He's a holy joe after all and that's what it says in his holy book, what's the problem?

You might not like it, you might not believe it (I personally neither like, nor believe it) but so what, I'm entitled to my opinion and he's entitled to his.

The world can not be limited only to things which you like and believe.

I'm sure he thinks I'm going to hell too - His thoughts are just that, his thoughts, I don't care what they are!

NIMAN

No one stopped him from airing his views.

In fact he can do it on the hour every hour from now on if he wants.

But he'll no longer be doing it as a professional rugby player, he'll just be one of many cranks on the Internet.

BattleCorp

Captain Flaps wrote: »

He's exercising his freedom of speech, he won't go to jail for it and it's not a crime. His employer has simply exercised their own right to disagree with him and assert that such beliefs are at odds with the ethos of their organisation so they have severed ties with him. I don't see a problem with this. He's not been silenced at all, he's still free to post whatever he wants on social media (although instagram are equally free to remove him if they choose).

You don't see a problem with somebody being sacked for having a religious belief and saying this in public - a lawful thing to do?

I can't believe I'm arguing on behalf of religion but hey, it's a strange world.

patmahe

He (or anyone else) has the right to his opinion and to express it peacefully, equally his employers have a right to their opinion. Where the views differ so extremely there may be consequences.

Australian rugby had to decide what they stood for and how they as an organization want to be seen. If they had continued to let someone with those views play at that level then what message does that send to the world, Australian Rugby is anti-homosexuality? What about the responsibility to gay rugby players or supporters, is it ok to make them feel like outcasts for the sake of this man?

I get your point but I don't think this is religious persecution or an impact on freedom of speech. This is a guy and his employer having a difference of opinion to the extent that they can no longer work together. The fact that religion is involved and Twitter was the chosen forum just meant it was more public than most similar cases.

El Weirdo

patmahe wrote: »

He (or anyone else) has the right to his opinion and to express it peacefully, equally his employers have a right to their opinion. Where the views differ so extremely there may be consequences.

Australian rugby had to decide what they stood for and how they as an organization want to be seen. If they had continued to let someone with those views play at that level then what message does that send to the world, Australian Rugby is anti-homosexuality? What about the responsibility to gay rugby players or supporters, is it ok to make them feel like outcasts for the sake of this man?

I get your point but I don't think this is religious persecution or an impact on freedom of speech. This is a guy and his employer having a difference of opinion to the extent that they can no longer work together. The fact that religion is involved and Twitter was the chosen forum just meant it was more public than most similar cases.

Not to mention the fact that he was previously warned for doing the same thing.

Sonics2k

He is absolutely free to state and declare his own personal beliefs.

However, in turn his employer has the right to act on their own beliefs. Everything is just as it should be.

BattleCorp

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

I'd have more sympathy for him if it wasn't such a particularly sh*tty view.

I don't disagree that it's a sh*tty view but he shouldn't lose his job because of it.

Losing your job is no small matter. And to lose your job for something like this is absolutely ridiculous.

Hedgelayer

Isn't great not to be sensitive, a social justice wanker, or a strident atheist, or dogmatic preacher.

These knobs above are what I think are basically weeds in a garden, once you cut them out of your life you'll flourish.

Fillers in society, usually dregs educated idiot's

There's good atheists and religious people, as for social justice ****, they're definitely the nettles of the garden.

riffmongous

'The bible said it' doesn't wash, the bible says a whole heap of contradictory stuff, that people pick and choose. If you're not a reclusive hermit living on the mountain in a sackcloth your nothing more than a hypocrite telling someone else they are going to Hell. Why don't these types ever focus on the love thy neighbour as the thyself, jesus died to save you stuff? No its always rules and hell.

And good for those who aren't religious and don't care he says you're going to Hell, but what about those who are? The young people struggling with their sexuality and religion? Why not tell them God created them in his image and Jesus loves them?

Pure scum

Iang87

Its not a crime to air his views, he's very much allowed to.

I'm at work now and if I walk into the LGBT council meeting here and say "Well lads ye are all going to hell" then I fully expect to find my p45 on my desk when I get back.

Your views are your views but employers, that pay you, may not share your views which is their right also. If they no longer want to keep you because you don't fit what they feel is best for their company then out you go.

For what its worth I do not share his views and think fair play to Australian rugby for taking a stand against probably their best player.

valoren

I recall golfer Zach Johnson airing his religious views after he won the US Masters in 2007. During his sit down interview to get the green jacket which is watched by millions he harped on about how Jesus, his lord and saviour, had been "walking the fairways" with him all week, that he found strength from that and conveyed that this helped him win so to speak. So here was another sportsperson airing his religious views. Did his corporate sponsors dump him? Did the companies he endorsed drop him unceremoniously? Of course they didn't. It was nice to see someone take pride in their religious views. Zach Johnson may very well believe that homosexuals are destined to burn in hell, no one knows, because he's not stupid enough to say something like that if he does believe that and is intelligent enough to understand the consequences personally and professionally for him if he said anything like that on any public forum.

Captain Flaps

BattleCorp wrote: »

You don't see a problem with somebody being sacked for having a religious belief and saying this in public - a lawful thing to do?

I can't believe I'm arguing on behalf of religion but hey, it's a strange world.

No. If I stand up in work and start saying that I think all the gays are going to hell then that would create an unpleasant environment for my gay colleagues and I would rightly be sacked. He was given a warning about this before and he chose to continue. I have no sympathy. People are free to hold and express whatever views they want but they don't have the right to spread them wherever they want without repercussions.

If I start posting openly anti-semetic, homophobic or white supremacist stuff here on boards I will be banned. I am more than welcome to instead go and post on a site that welcomes those views. Likewise, this lad is more than welcome to go and play for the 'mad bigots of australia rubgy league' or establish one himself if it doesn't currently exist.

mcmoustache

If I had a twitter account heavily associated with my employer (branding, logos etc) and tweeted that a substantial portion of our customers were bad people, I would be warned and if I did it again, I would be sacked. This is normal stuff that happens all the time.

If you work in an office, check your social media policy.

Stop trying to spin social consequences for being a cúnt into a free-issue like we had with such fine people as Alex Jones, Tommy Robinson and Gemma O Doherty.

Beta Ray Bill

valoren wrote: »

Zach Johnson may very well believe that homosexuals are destined to burn in hell, no one knows, because he's not stupid enough to say something like that if he does believe that and is intelligent enough to understand the consequences personally and professionally for him if he said anything like that on any public forum.

I believe this is called:
Not being an absolute f**king tick!

King of Kings

NIMAN wrote: »

No one stopped him from airing his views.

In fact he can do it on the hour every hour from now on if he wants.

But he'll no longer be doing it as a professional rugby player, he'll just be one of many cranks on the Internet.

Losing your paycheck is a sanction albeit different to prison but a punishment nonetheless. To argue that he is still protected by free speech is not a valid arguement.

I'll go futher and propose that since rugby union gets government funding that rugby union should be obliged to uphold and protect free speech (but not illegal).

I could understand if he attacked an individual person but he didnt...it was a banal general statement.

F*cking shams.

lawred2

BattleCorp wrote: »

Firstly, I think religion is stupid. But hey, if you want to partake, work away.
Secondly, I have no problem with gay people. Live and let live.

https://news.sky.com/story/israel-folau-rugby-star-to-be-sacked-over-anti-gay-social-media-post-11694460

That said, it's troubling me that Israel Folou is in so much hot water for airing his own religious views that homosexuals are going to go to hell. To be fair, that's pretty much what the Catholic church teach. It's pretty much what's written in the bible. I think Islam pretty much teaches the same.

So why is he being sacked for airing his religious views, views that are common amongst many? Is it now a crime to air your religious views?

Is it really discrimination to say that gays are going to hell, especially when it's the teaching of many churches around the world?

I could understand the outrage if he said to get your pitchfork and kill gays but he did nothing of the sort.

Or is it a case of it's ok to believe what you like but keep your mouth shut.

Even if the view is something that I don't agree with, I don't agree with silencing that view. If we go down that road, it's not a nice place to end up.

because your make believe guiding structures should have no bearing or influence on anyone else's life

Hotblack Desiato

BattleCorp wrote: »

To be fair, that's pretty much what the Catholic church teach.

Nope

It's pretty much what's written in the bible.

Where, exactly?

I think Islam pretty much teaches the same.

Given that you were almost certainly brought up as at least a nominal catholic, I wouldn't have too much confidence you'd be that clued up on the teachings of islam, but of course I could be wrong.

So why is he being sacked for airing his religious views

Wrong again. He's being sacked for being a stupid cnut on the internet, a whole year after being warned by his employer to not be a stupid cnut on the internet.

views that are common amongst many?

I doubt that. I hope not in this day and age.

Is it now a crime to air your religious views?

Yes if you are advocating hatred or inciting violence, and rightly so, but afaik he has not been charged with any crime.

Is it really discrimination to say that gays are going to hell

Seriously?

lawred2

weldoninhio wrote: »

The minority get to tell us now what is right and what is wrong.

you think the majority agree with Israel Falou's private beliefs?

Roger Hassenforder

Any update on Billy Vunipola?

BattleCorp

lawred2 wrote: »

you think the majority agree with Israel Falou's private beliefs?

I don't agree with Israel Falou's private or public beliefs. Not even remotely.

But I do think that he shouldn't lose his job for having those beliefs.

riffmongous

King of Kings wrote: »

Losing your paycheck is a sanction albeit different to prison but a punishment nonetheless. To argue that he is still protected by free speech is not a valid arguement.

I'll go futher and propose that since rugby union gets government funding that rugby union should be obliged to uphold and protect free speech (but not illegal).

I could understand if he attacked an individual person but he didnt...it was a banal general statement.

F*cking shams.

You need to look up what free speech actually is

lawred2

grahambo wrote: »

The Rule in 2019 is:
You're not allowed to say anything that might "trigger" some mad person or upset a delicate snow flake.

Basically the world has to pretend to be super inclusive, accepting and culturally diverse even though it really isn't.

If he believes that, then fine. (Who cares!?)
But he was an absolute IDIOT for saying it on social media, it's cost him his career.

lol

so to find such comments distasteful is to be a snowflake... :rolleyes:

lawred2

BattleCorp wrote: »

I don't agree with Israel Falou's private or public beliefs. Not even remotely.

But I do think that he shouldn't lose his job for having those beliefs.

He didn't lose his job for "for having those beliefs".

He lost his job for posting hateful crap on the internet despite being previously warned about it.

But sure misrepresent away

Hotblack Desiato

valoren wrote: »

he harped on about how Jesus, his lord and saviour, had been "walking the fairways" with him all week

Wow, what a self-obsessed tosser.

Does he not have the brain capacity to realise that there are a multitude of things in the universe more important for a god to be doing, should he/she/it exist, than watching some stupid cúnt play golf ffs?

King of Kings

lawred2 wrote: »

you think the majority agree with Israel Falou's private beliefs?

probably not but id say only a minority wet their pants over his view too.
Most people can shrug their shoulders and move on without getting upset.

Going by posters here its funny people moaning about his posts seem to be the anti-religion crowd anyway.
So they are complaining that he is sending gays to a place that doesnt exist.....gotta figure that out myself....

ohnonotgmail

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Wow, what a self-obsessed tosser.

Does he not have the brain capacity to realise that there are a multitude of thing in the universe more important for a god to be doing, should he/she/it exist, than watching some stupid cúnt play golf ffs?

well they think their god is omniscient so it shouldn't stop their god from doing other things at the same time.

kneemos

There's an incitement to hatred law. So he can't say anything he likes, wrapping it up as religious beliefs probably makes it more acceptable though.

Plumbthedepths

I believe he was already warned to keep his views separate from his professional life he ignored his employers request, now he gets to spout his views as much as he wishes.

BattleCorp

kneemos wrote: »

There's an incitement to hatred law. So he can't say anything he likes, wrapping it up as religious beliefs probably makes it more acceptable though.

How is it incitement to hatred? Seriously.

I fully understand that he can't say whatever he likes. He didn't say attack homosexuals/drunks etc.

If I say "drunks are going to hell", how in the name of fcuk is that incitement to hate drunks?

jjpep

It's interesting how religious views are treated. It's basically someone saying stuff and then not backing up what they're saying and just hiding behind a wall of 'its my religion'. What I'd like to see is this guy (and others like him) actually having to justify what he's said and not being allowed to hide behind 'its my belief'.

El_Duderino 09

grahambo wrote: »

The Rule in 2019 is:
You're not allowed to say anything that might "trigger" some mad person or upset a delicate snow flake.

Basically the world has to pretend to be super inclusive, accepting and culturally diverse even though it really isn't.

If he believes that, then fine. (Who cares!?)
But he was an absolute IDIOT for saying it on social media, it's cost him his career.

Ugh. Trigger and delicate snowflake in one sentence. Edgy.

The fact is that rugby doesn't want to be associated with anti gay rhetoric. And why should they want to be associated with that stuff?

The world isn't particularly inclusive, you're right about that. Rugby is trying to become inclusive to people outside its traditional player case and somehow you're putting yourself in opposition to that. Isn't that interesting?

The experience of Tom Shanklin and Nige owens both suggest that rugby wasnt a welcoming environment for gays. So rugby is proactively telling gays and everyone else that they are welcome to come play rugby. I'm fine with that.

I'm sure you'll ignore the fact that he is free to believe and post anything he likes. He hasn't been silenced. He just can't post certain things while under contract.

Like the people supporting him, he seems to see value in feeling persecuted. Strange how done people's minds work.

evil_seed

BattleCorp wrote: »

Firstly, I think religion is stupid. But hey, if you want to partake, work away.
Secondly, I have no problem with gay people. Live and let live.

https://news.sky.com/story/israel-folau-rugby-star-to-be-sacked-over-anti-gay-social-media-post-11694460

That said, it's troubling me that Israel Folou is in so much hot water for airing his own religious views that homosexuals are going to go to hell. To be fair, that's pretty much what the Catholic church teach. It's pretty much what's written in the bible. I think Islam pretty much teaches the same.

So why is he being sacked for airing his religious views, views that are common amongst many? Is it now a crime to air your religious views?

Is it really discrimination to say that gays are going to hell, especially when it's the teaching of many churches around the world?

I could understand the outrage if he said to get your pitchfork and kill gays but he did nothing of the sort.

Or is it a case of it's ok to believe what you like but keep your mouth shut.

Even if the view is something that I don't agree with, I don't agree with silencing that view. If we go down that road, it's not a nice place to end up.

Hi Izzy, sorry to read about you getting fired

sbsquarepants

NIMAN wrote: »

No one stopped him from airing his views.

In fact he can do it on the hour every hour from now on if he wants.

But he'll no longer be doing it as a professional rugby player, he'll just be one of many cranks on the Internet.

The way I see it, it all depends on his contract.

If he has specifically agreed to not air his religious views, then screw him, he's in breach of contract.

If he hasn't, then he's just another religious asshole. You can't go sacking people for being assholes.

If sponsors want to abandon him, that's their choice, but we don't sack every asshole bus driver or barman now do we?

Where does that end? I'd be the only one left in my company for a start:D

lawred2

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ugh. Trigger and delicate snowflake in one sentence. Edgy.

The fact is that rugby doesn't want to be associated with anti gay rhetoric. And why should they want to be associated with that stuff?

The world isn't particularly inclusive, you're right about that. Rugby is trying to become inclusive to people outside its traditional player case and somehow you're putting yourself in opposition to that. Isn't that interesting?

The experience of Tom Shanklin and Nige owens both suggest that rugby wasnt a welcoming environment for gays. So rugby is proactively telling gays and everyone else that they are welcome to come play rugby. I'm fine with that.

I'm sure you'll ignore the fact that he is free to believe and post anything he likes. He hasn't been silenced. He just can't post certain things while under contract.

Like the people supporting him, he seems to see value in feeling persecuted. Strange how done people's minds work.

Gareth Thomas?

BattleCorp

jjpep wrote: »

It's interesting how religious views are treated. It's basically someone saying stuff and then not backing up what they're saying and just hiding behind a wall of 'its my religion'. What I'd like to see is this guy (and others like him) actually having to justify what he's said and not being allowed to hide behind 'its my belief'.

Explain to me how he can back up his belief? What does he do, bring back cctv footage of hell and it's full of gays? He can't back up his beliefs with proof. That's the whole idea of religion. It's a belief without a shred of proof.

robinph

valoren wrote: »

I recall golfer Zach Johnson airing his religious views after he won the US Masters in 2007. During his sit down interview to get the green jacket which is watched by millions he harped on about how Jesus, his lord and saviour, had been "walking the fairways" with him all week, that he found strength from that and conveyed that this helped him win so to speak. So here was another sportsperson airing his religious views. Did his corporate sponsors dump him? Did the companies he endorsed drop him unceremoniously? Of course they didn't. It was nice to see someone take pride in their religious views. Zach Johnson may very well believe that homosexuals are destined to burn in hell, no one knows, because he's not stupid enough to say something like that if he does believe that and is intelligent enough to understand the consequences personally and professionally for him if he said anything like that on any public forum.

There is nothing wrong with saying that you think some deity helped you win.

That is vastly different to saying that your deity thinks that certain groups of people are evil and going to hell.

lawred2

BattleCorp wrote: »

Explain to me how he can back up his belief? What does he do, bring back cctv footage of hell and it's full of gays? He can't back up his beliefs with proof. That's the whole idea of religion. It's a belief without a shred of proof.

handy that when you don't like some group of people

El_Duderino 09

lawred2 wrote: »

Gareth Thomas?

Correct. Gareth Thomas not Tom Shanklin.

Beta Ray Bill

lawred2 wrote: »

lol

so to find such comments distasteful is to be a snowflake... :rolleyes:

I suppose it depends on whether you actually believe in Heaven and Hell and Everlasting life and some lad stabbing ya with a trident for all eternity and all the rest of that rubbish.

I thought his comment wasn't a nice thing to, but I more so found them to be absolutely tick!!
Am I offended... No, Are my LGBT mates offended... No. Why? Cause we're not snowflakes and we recognise that Israel Folau is just some dope waving a Bible around.

As far as I am aware he was told not to post his stupid/extreme religious views before, but he went and did it anyway.

robinph

sbsquarepants wrote: »

The way I see it, it all depends on his contract.

If he has specifically agreed to not air his religious views, then screw him, he's in breach of contract.

If he hasn't, then he's just another religious asshole. You can't go sacking people for being assholes.

If sponsors want to abandon him, that's their choice, but we don't sack every asshole bus driver or barman now do we?

Where does that end? I'd be the only one left in my company for a start:D

I think if a bus driver was telling everyone that boarded their bus that gay people would be going to hell they would not be in their job for much longer.

BattleCorp

lawred2 wrote: »

handy that when you don't like some group of people

Yep, it's a pile of sh1te. But hey, that's religion.

My point in this thread though isn't anti-religion or anti-gay. The only think I'm anti is the shutting down and taking away the livelihood of people with different views.

I'd fully agree with Falou being sacked if he incited hatred against anybody. But he didn't. He didn't say 'get out your pitchforks and kill the fcukers' or anything remotely similar.

He said that if you are a member of that group, you are going to go to this 'fictional' place.

I don't think that's worth losing your job over.

BattleCorp

robinph wrote: »

I think if a bus driver was telling everyone that boarded their bus that gay people would be going to hell they would not be in their job for much longer.

The bus driver would be in work if he was telling everybody who boarded their bus that gay people would be going to hell.

Falou posted what he did in his own spare time. Folou didn't tell people his beliefs whilst in work.

They aren't the same thing.

lawred2

BattleCorp wrote: »

Yep, it's a pile of sh1te. But hey, that's religion.

My point in this thread though isn't anti-religion or anti-gay. The only think I'm anti is the shutting down and taking away the livelihood of people with different views.

I'd fully agree with Falou being sacked if he incited hatred against anybody. But he didn't. He didn't say 'get out your pitchforks and kill the fcukers' or anything remotely similar.

He said that if you are a member of that group, you are going to go to this 'fictional' place.

I don't think that's worth losing your job over.

you seem to have conflated incitement to hatred with incitement to violence