No getting through to sister

lulu1

Dont know if i'm posting in the right place but need some advice.

An older sister moved into sheltered housing last year but still has her own house a few miles away. It's a good house might be a bit out of date but good all the same.
just to say she would be a bit innocent as far as the real world is concerned but not too bad as she has learned a few times to her expense not to trust word of mouth and always get something down on paper

Anyway she offered to sell me the house if i wanted it but i didnt want it as i lived to far away and it would just be another expense.

Now out of the blue a niece wants to buy the house telling my sister that she will give her a few thousand a year until its paid off The niece is 18 and only started work . My sister told her no she didnt want to sell. So now the niece wants to rent and wants my sister to move her furniture out as she wants to put new furniture in .Myself and the rest of the family have advised my sister against letting her bring in her own furniture . My sister is coming up on 70. We feel my sister is in for another lesson again at her expense.I have given her my opinion when she asked me so its up to her now i guess

qwerty13

My antennae went up when I read that. It feels as though the niece is possibly taking advantage of your sister’s vulnerability.

I don’t think the furniture is the issue though. Is there a proper rental agreement being drawn up? And market value rent going to be paid? Are you in touch with this niece’s parents, i.e. is there some family contact that would tend to keep this arrangement above board?

PS: would your sister engage an agent to deal with renting out her house? Or could you be the liaison re renting it out (to allegedly deal with any issues, but also to monitor if rent is actually being paid in full and on time)

ManOfMystery

On the one hand, I'm of the opinion that it's good that someone in her family will be looking after the house rather than a complete stranger.

On the other hand, the niece *could* be in a position to take advantage of the situation, if (and that's a big IF) she was that way inclined.

For your sister's security, I'd strongly recommend she approach this as if she was renting to a complete stranger. Deposit, rental contract drawn up, rent paid in by direct debit on a fixed date every month, etc. And if the house is being rented 'as is' (i.e. furnished), then it will be the niece's responsibility to move out the existing furniture and ensure it is put into proper storage - though if your sister is likely to be in sheltered housing permanently perhaps selling off the furniture would be a better option. Either way, a full inventory should be carried out beforehand also.

Del2005

The problem is that in this country a rental agreement does nothing to protect the landlord. So even if the OPs sister put in an iorn clad rental contract they are not worth the paper they are written on. The fact that it's family will only increase the problem never mix family, money and property! But at the end of the day it's the sisters property and she appears to be mentally alert if a bit nieve.

Paddy Cow

The op has "elder abuse" written all over it. Try and talk your sister out of this. Mixing family and business is a very bad idea. An 18 year old does not need a house to themselves to furnish as they please. She will get her feet in there and then consider it "her" house and good luck getting her out in the future.

B0jangles

The fact that the niece opened the conversation with the frankly laughable suggestion that she 'buy' the house for 'a few thousand a year until it's paid off' tell me that either the niece is extremely immature and uninformed about how buying a house works, or she's planning to get hold of this house for as little as possible and willing to basically scam a too-trusting relative to get it.

Is there any way you can convince her to put yourself or someone else trustworthy, like a family solicitor, in charge of any negotiations about selling/renting the house (in active consultation with your sister of course)? It'd make it clear to anyone sniffing around that the house isn't easy pickings any more.

wiggle16

Based on what you have said about their interactions around this property and the workings of buying or letting it:

The neice doesn't know how this works.

Your sister doesn't know how this works.

So I completely agree with you that she is letting herself in for a very costly lesson. Letting to this neice sounds like a very, very bad idea. She wanted the house outright. Now she's offering to rent it but wants her own furniture in it, without considering what exactly her aunt would do with her own furniture or that the normal way to do this would involve the tenant putting the landlord's furniture into storage. She has no idea how these things work.

I would strongly suspect that when it comes time for the neice to leave, one way or the other, she will prove hard to extract from the house.

Also, how can an 18 year old afford to furnish an entire house herself? Or buy one, even under that silly installment arrangement? Who is actually footing the bill here? Most 18 year olds these days wouldn't have the wherewithall to contrive something like this. So I would be suspicious that there is another family member driving this, knowing your sister is a soft touch.

All you can do is make your sister aware of all this and reccommend she consult a letting agent or solicitor before going through with it. But I would run a mile. I think someone has their beady eyes on this house if I'm honest.

zoobizoo

What does your brother/sister, the parent of this niece, think about this?

freddie1970

Do not let your sister go through with this ..letting out to friends and family is a terrible idea..

seamus

Let's sidestep the niece issue for a second.

Your sister has moved into sheltered accommodation. She is not coming back. I am very much aware that people who make these moves can be unwilling to accept their situation and often keep their homes sitting idle, "just in case".

She should move her stuff out. In fact, she should sell or dispose of everything that doesn't have sentimental value, and see if she can bring the rest with her, or if a family member will keep it for her.

Empty the house. Then sell it.

Property market is beginning to peak. She has an aging property in need of some work. That's not going to go away. Advise her to sell the property and bank the cash. This gives her lots of independence and lots of options. If sheltered accommodation isn't her bag, she can go rent (or even buy) a nice clean, new property, close to the things she loves. Either way, she has a lovely big nest egg available to her - freedom - rather than the liability and stress of a rotting, idle property.

The main concern here is that when she dies if the niece is still sitting in it, there could be a large custody war over residency rights and whether the niece was actually renting the property, or whether she was taking care of it. Even a will cannot avoid this. Selling the house eliminates any chance that family relations will be soured after her death.

If she is dead set on not selling the house (which is the obvious solution IMHO), then she should still empty it and hire a letting agent to manage the rental. Agent collects the rent and deals with the tenant, your sister doesn't have to think about it. Tell the agent you have a tenant ready to go - the niece - and let the agent and the niece at it.

Dial Hard

freddie1970 wrote: »

Do not let your sister go through with this ..letting out to friends and family is a terrible idea..

This blanket caveat irks me a bit, because I've been renting from my brother for 6 years with never an issue on either side.

However, in this scenario there are so many red flags waving it'd be funny other other circumstances. OP, I can guarantee you that given your niece's previous daft proposal, she will see any form of rental as a tacit rent-to-buy agreement. Once she's in, good luck getting her out. Secondly, where the hell are her parents in this? The fact that they don't seem to be anywhere in the equation telling her to get her head out of the clouds would strongly suggest to me that they're behind or at least supporting this somehow.

You say you and the rest of your family have advised your sister against allowing the niece bring her own furniture. I would suggest you are spectacularly missing the point - you should be advising your sister not to rent to your niece full stop. A one-eyed man with cataracts could see what's going to happen if she does.

If your sister needs rental income from the house, she should let it through an agent, with all the relevant boxes (RTB registration, watertight lease etc) in place. If that needs to be through an agent to bypass your sister's naivete, then it's money well spent, imo.

Have her suggest to your niece that she's happy to let the house to her, at market rent, with RTB registration and a signed lease in place, and gauge the niece's reaction. I suspect it will speak volumes. But I still wouldn't rent the house to her even with those parameters in place, to be quite honest.

punisher5112

Renting it out is a terrible idea to be honest as she doesn't need the added stress and I guess now that she is where she is she wouldn't be able to be chasing up things or people for money and that's tenants and letting agents etc...

House would most likely need work and new appliances etc to bring it up to standard.

The niece needs to be ran.

She can see I'll have a free place to live....

wiggle16

Dial Hard wrote: »

However, in this scenario there are so many red flags waving it'd be funny other other circumstances. OP, I can guarantee you that given your niece's previous daft proposal, she will see any form of rental as a tacit rent-to-buy agreement. Once she's in, good luck getting her out. Secondly, where the hell are her parents in this? The fact that they don't seem to be anywhere in the equation telling her to get her head out of the clouds would strongly suggest to me that they're behind or at least supporting this somehow.

I agree with this. Unless there's an involvement from the parents that you didnt mention in your post OP, I think the parents are conspicuous by their absence. This really doesn't sound like something an 18 year old would cook up by herself. I'd be really wary of renting to her.

Rubberchikken

if your sister is 70 and in sheltered housing, what is the likelihood that she'll ever live in this house again?
woukd she just sell on the open market and then decide what she wants to do with the money it makes?
i certainly wouldn't be renting to an 18yo niece whos just started working.

rainbowtrout

Who is the niece's parent in all of this? One of your own brothers or sisters? Or was your sister who owns the house married and the niece is on the other side of the family?

Like everyone else I would advise against renting to the niece, but what strikes me as odd is how an 18 year old would come up with this plan in the first place? Most 18 year olds have only just finished school, don't know their arse from their elbow financially and are not worrying about buying houses. Did their parent(s) put them up to this and really it's them in the background trying to get their hands on the house?

Paddy Cow

lulu1 wrote: »

Anyway she offered to sell me the house if i wanted it but i didnt want it as i lived to far away and it would just be another expense.

Now out of the blue a niece wants to buy the house telling my sister that she will give her a few thousand a year until its paid off The niece is 18 and only started work . My sister told her no she didnt want to sell. So now the niece wants to rent and wants my sister to move her furniture out as she wants to put new furniture in .Myself and the rest of the family have advised my sister against letting her bring in her own furniture . My sister is coming up on 70. We feel my sister is in for another lesson again at her expense.I have given her my opinion when she asked me so its up to her now i guess

I've been keeping track of this thread and I'd be with other posters who are questioning who put the 18 year old up to this. It doesn't sound like something an 18 year old would think of. The one blessing is that your sister told her no outright to buying it.

Offering to rent it but insisting that your sister remove all her furniture is strange. How is an 18 year old going to be able to furnish a house on a first wage? Someone has to be helping her/putting ideas in her head. Does your niece intend on living there on her own or moving friends in? A lot of 18 year olds move away from home but they move into house share, they don't move in by themselves.

Your sister would be best off simply putting the house on the market and enjoy whatever proceeds from the sale she gets. She's 70 and doesn't need any drama in her life.

lulu1

So sorry for the confusion its a grand niece Myself and other family members have told her not to let her have the house and even if she did not to let her put furniture in it because i remember reading somewhere that its harder to get a tenant out if they have their own furniture in place.

I have even said to my sister what if you died tomorrow who's going to have the authority to put her out. Oh she says i have my will made so it will be up to whoever gets the house. but as someone already replied it's not as easy as that even with the will.

I can nearly guarantee the rent wont be paid half the time I will try and convince my sister to work through a letting agency but i know if it costs money she won'r do it.

Oh yes she said she told her she would only rent 3 month at a time to see how it goes

Paddy Cow

lulu1 wrote: »

Oh yes she said she told her she would only rent 3 month at a time to see how it goes

Please try to explain to your sister that it doesn't work like that. Once a tenant has been in a place 6 months, they have a lot of rights. It's very hard to evict someone who isn't paying their rent. People can get away without paying rent for a year before they are evicted and your sister doesn't need that hassle.

woodchuck

a niece wants to buy the house telling my sister that she will give her a few thousand a year until its paid off

I can nearly guarantee the rent wont be paid half the time

Your grand niece sounds completely deluded about the buying process and a very poor prospective tenant.

There is NO way your sister should let this girl into the house! It will likely lead to a whole world off issues down the line. This needs to be nipped in the bud NOW before it gets out of hand. I wouldn't even bother giving your sister advice regarding letting agents etc. She needs to put the foot down now, and just say no, before it's too late.

seamus

The only option your sister should be putting on the table is for her own niece (i.e. the grand-niece's parents) to buy the house.

Then if they want to rent to their own daughter, let them at it.

It needs to be drilled home that allowing the house to sit idle will cost less money and cause less heartache than renting it to an 18 year old.

My gut feeling here is that someone has hatched a particularly callous plan to get the grand-niece into the house and wait for your sister to die. The "3 months rent at a time" is so that they can stop paying rent and hope that it just gets "forgotten" by a 70-year old woman.

Once the dust has the settled, they'll argue that the rest of the family should just let the grand-niece stay on in "her" house, or be able to buy it for peanuts compared to the open market. "Why would you force a woman out of her home?", etc.

Sell. Sell. Sell.

IvoryTower

I moved into my great aunts house, she too went to a home. She couldn't rent it out as with part of the deal to stay in the home, 80% of her income would go to the HSE. So this way I look after the house, pay the bills, paint, clean, whatever it needs. I get to live there rent free which allows me to save for my own house. I gave all the furniture to charity when I moved in, it was all too old fashioned(not in the nice way) and was of no use to my family so i can understand why someone might want to do this. My aunt is just happy to be able to help a family member out and know her house is being looked after and put to use. Difference being is I'm in my 30's with a family so I guess that's where the similarities end.

Not sure if that's of any use to you op, but I'm just saying that it can be good to have all the costs of owning a house covered if renting it out is too much hassle or too costly. There were other nieces and nephews that could of availed of this but it was most suitable to us at the time(they already own homes or live in different towns etc).

IvoryTower

Also the aunt is only coming up on 70? Depends on her health but she could live for a lot longer than anyone here seems to think!

IvoryTower

Assuming she doesn't have any deals with the hse regarding her current accommodation, her options are

1. sell (why not?)
2. rent (hassle she doesn't need?)
3. rent to niece (bills covered but possible hassle depending on niece, as she said herself the hassle will land with the person the house is left to)
4. do nothing (less hassle but you still have to cover bills)

anything else? OP id find out why she doesn't want to sell it

qwerty13

Would you consider you buying the house, and then dealing with selling it on / renting it? It would be a huge ask. And not one that you should feel that you have to do. It would protect your sister though. I’m also not sure I’d actually do it

lulu1

qwerty13 wrote: »

Would you consider you buying the house, and then dealing with selling it on / renting it? It would be a huge ask. And not one that you should feel that you have to do. It would protect your sister though. I’m also not sure I’d actually do it

No I don't want the house it would just be another expense that I don't need. As far as we are concerned now she has been told time and time again she might be a bit naive but she is not stupid. It's her house and she can do what she likes with it

Seth Brundle

lulu1 wrote: »

she might be a bit naive but she is not stupid. It's her house and she can do what she likes with it

That's fine.
However, as the grand-niece looks to be wanting to get this as a free house one way or the other, may I ask how many times the grand-niece visited your sister over the last few years? Why should she even feel entitled to it?

Suzyq

What if she needs to sell the house to pay for nursing home fees? This sounds like a recipe for disaster

lulu1

Seth Brundle wrote: »

That's fine.
However, as the grand-niece looks to be wanting to get this as a free house one way or the other, may I ask how many times the grand-niece visited your sister over the last few years? Why should she even feel entitled to it?

Very few times I would imagine in fact I have never heard my sister saying any of the grand nieces or nephews visited and if I called to see her that's the first question I would ask

Did you see anyone today? Apologies if I sounded rude in my last reply but we have washed our hands of the whole thing now. The ball is in her court

Paddy Cow

lulu1 wrote: »

Very few times I would imagine in fact I have never heard my sister saying any of the grand nieces or nephews visited and if I called to see her that's the first question I would ask

Did you see anyone today? Apologies if I sounded rude in my last reply but we have washed our hands of the whole thing now. The ball is in her court

You're right to do that. Even Stevie Wonder can see how this is going to play out. If your sister won't listen to reason and sound advice, then on her head be it. You've done all you can.

lulu1

Paddy Cow wrote: »

You're right to do that. Even Stevie Wonder can see how this is going to play out. If your sister won't listen to reason and sound advice, then on her head be it. You've done all you can.

My blood is boiling she knows all and that is it. I just hope we are over reacting and maybe the girl will move out if sister wants her too but time will tell.

Paddy Cow

lulu1 wrote: »

My blood is boiling she knows all and that is it. I just hope we are over reacting and maybe the girl will move out if sister wants her too but time will tell.

It's none of my business but if your sister was willing to sell to you but turned down the niece, she has some sense. Why she wouldn't just put it on the market is beyond me. Renting is far more hassle but she's made her bed.

BBFAN

I don't mean to be rude OP but does your sister have your full faculties? If she doesn't then you need to apply to make her a ward of court. If she does then you've very little say here.

I say this as someone who runs a nursing home so I have some experience in this area.

If she is in a nursing home by the way the rent will be counted as income and 80% of it will go towards her care.

The furniture I don't see a big deal if there's no possibility that she's going to return there.

Other than that sorry, not much other advice I can give you.

lulu1

BBFAN wrote: »

I don't mean to be rude OP but does your sister have your full faculties? If she doesn't then you need to apply to make her a ward of court. If she does then you've very little say here.

I say this as someone who runs a nursing home so I have some experience in this area.

If she is in a nursing home by the way the rent will be counted as income and 80% of it will go towards her care.

The furniture I don't see a big deal if there's no possibility that she's going to return there.

Other than that sorry, not much other advice I can give you.

Oh yes she is perfect in that way she may be a bit niave where she would believe nearly anything. Yes we know we have no say atal just voicing our opinion when asked. Just dont like sitting back seeing it happen

seamus

OP, one thing worth considering:

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/death/before_a_death/power_of_attorney.html#l69954

This is not the same as making them a ward of the court or taking power away from them. It is not uncommon for someone entering sheltered accommodation or a nursing home to delegate authority over some of their business to another person. The declaration would be made BY your sister, with her agreement. It's not something you go to court to force to be taken away from her.

The person with this is legally obliged to act in the best interests of the person - that is, to not use it to line their own pockets or benefit their friends.

However, it is usually advisable to give this power to a trusted 3rd party in exchange for a set fee, such as a solicitor or accountant. This means that nobody else in the family will get special treatment, and in the event that the person with PoA is found to be acting improperly, legal action can be taken against them without tearing your family apart.

TheBoyConor

lulu1 wrote: »

Oh yes she is perfect in that way she may be a bit niave where she would believe nearly anything. Yes we know we have no say atal just voicing our opinion when asked. Just dont like sitting back seeing it happen

So in other words she does not have her full faculties as she is lacking in critical think and judgement. The fact that she is in a nursing home at not even 70 years of age would to some extent also back up the thinking that there is something amiss.

This is going to end in tears. It will wind up with the girl either wrecking the house, not paying rent and being a nightmare to evict afterwords or the parents digging their heels in to get the house for a pittance pay off.

You should at least consider the options for having your sister's state of mind assessed as it seems that the 18 year old or her parents are running rings around your sister. Unless there is some significant physical or mental issues at play, a normal functioning person of 70 should not be in a nursing home. You might have some chance of her being made a ward of court and thus putting the brakes on this madness.

This is the sort of thing that went on in ireland in times gone by. People saying things like "ah sure he's fine, he's just a bit innocent/naieve/simple" when the truth was that there was an intellectual disability there. A typical head in the sand denial mentality that cause an awful lot of rot in this country.

lulu1

TheBoyConor wrote: »

So in other words she does not have her full faculties as she is lacking in critical think and judgement. The fact that she is in a nursing home at not even 70 years of age would to some extent also back up the thinking that there is something amiss.

This is going to end in tears. It will wind up with the girl either wrecking the house, not paying rent and being a nightmare to evict afterwords or the parents digging their heels in to get the house for a pittance pay off.

You should at least consider the options for having your sister's state of mind assessed as it seems that the 18 year old or her parents are running rings around your sister. Unless there is some significant physical or mental issues at play, a normal functioning person of 70 should not be in a nursing home. You might have some chance of her being made a ward of court and thus putting the brakes on this madness.

This is the sort of thing that went on in ireland in times gone by. People saying things like "ah sure he's fine, he's just a bit innocent/naieve/simple" when the truth was that there was an intellectual disability there. A typical head in the sand denial mentality that cause an awful lot of rot in this country.

She's not in a nursing home she's in sheltered accomadation looking after herself 24/7 Its the best decision she ever made because she loves company and when she was living in her own house she seen no one unless ourselves

BBFAN

TheBoyConor wrote: »

So in other words she does not have her full faculties as she is lacking in critical think and judgement. The fact that she is in a nursing home at not even 70 years of age would to some extent also back up the thinking that there is something amiss.

This is going to end in tears. It will wind up with the girl either wrecking the house, not paying rent and being a nightmare to evict afterwords or the parents digging their heels in to get the house for a pittance pay off.

You should at least consider the options for having your sister's state of mind assessed as it seems that the 18 year old or her parents are running rings around your sister. Unless there is some significant physical or mental issues at play, a normal functioning person of 70 should not be in a nursing home. You might have some chance of her being made a ward of court and thus putting the brakes on this madness.

This is the sort of thing that went on in ireland in times gone by. People saying things like "ah sure he's fine, he's just a bit innocent/naieve/simple" when the truth was that there was an intellectual disability there. A typical head in the sand denial mentality that cause an awful lot of rot in this country.

What???

Plenty of people of 70 can't live on their own full time because of physical problems and also loneliness.

To presume they don't have their full faculties is patronising in the extreme.