Ending Tenancy

Pat201

Hello
I have been renting an apartments for 4.5 years and recently purchased a House that will be ready to move into in June . I informed my landlord that i wanted to leave in June in middle of March .

The Apartment is leased to 3 people at moment and we will all be leaving in June. Other 2 Tenant have been here for 2 years and 1 year. Landlord said in March that it was okay as we gave enough notice but in last few days the relationship has turned weird.

I received a text to remind me that our lease was signed up to August this year when i tried to confirm end date and that landlord would have to let us out 2 months early. I then sent formal letter requesting end date in June but was informed by landlord that they would need to discuss with their solicitor. It feels to me like they are going to try and screw us over to keep paying rent after leaving or lose deposit. I obviously cannot afford to pay for a house and pay rent in a apartment that im giving landlord 2-3 month notice on that im leaving. Any advice ?
Pat

You are not getting screwed if both you and landlord are abiding by the legal terms of your tenancy agreement.

amcalester

How do you know you'll be ready to move in June? House purchases get delayed all the time.

And, as pointed out expecting you to uphold your contract isn't screwing you over.

Graham

OP have you asked the landlord if you can assign the lease or sublet?

https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/ending-a-fixed-term-tenancy/tenants-ending-a-fixed-term-tenancy/

Pat201

House is a new build that can be ready before end of May so I've given myself until middle of June to move. I am trying to avoid a situation where I have a mortgage to pay and rent for a place that will be empty until end of August. Place is in Dublin so would not be difficult for landlord to get new people in timeframe I've given. I cannot understand the benefit to holding me to lease that I may not be able to pay.

I mentioned to landlord that I would have to sublet if my tenancy could not be ended but I have questions about that. What would happen if people who replaced me stopped paying rent or destroyed the house. Would I be liable ?
Pat

You can assign lease, but you still have to give 84 days notice. If LL refuses assignment then you can walk, but with required notice. The property is inspected when your tenancy ends either way at the end of your tenancy/notice period and you are only liable for any damage at that time.

You have to consider it from both sides, tenancy law protects you from the LL from end the tenancy earlier as well. Renting is such a minefield now, you can’t blame him for getting advice to ensure he is doing everything right even though you want out early.

The_Conductor

Dav010 wrote: »

Renting is such a minefield now, you can’t blame him for getting advice to ensure he is doing everything right even though you want out early.

This is it in a nutshell.
The legislative and regulatory regime in which landlords operate is convoluted beyond comprehension- the only sane thing for the landlord to do- is get proper advice and follow it. This is the path he is taking.

Pat201

I totally understand the tenancy laws are there to protect landlord and tenant but in this case i just cannot understand why landlord is being difficult. I am giving required notice to terminate lease and flat is in Dublin so it would not be difficult to find new tenants with amount of time im giving notice. I will be moving to my own house that i would require to pay a mortgage on so they hardly expect i can afford both. Surely they are running risk that i do not pay as its impossible to afford.

I would require to finish my lease only 2 months early and this is after being a tenant for 4.5 years. All tenants would leave flat so landlord gets place back clean and can pick next people they get in or do what ever they would like to place.

On a Side note previous flatmate gave 1 months notice that they were moving to states after being a tenant for 2 years, he got a person in to cover his room and they continued paying rent on his room. Landlord kept his deposit as he did not give appropriate notice. Previous housemate did not fight it as he was moving to states and would have been difficult to follow up. Landlord basically pocketed 500 euro extra that month as they did not miss a euro of rent.

This is why i feel that the landlord is trying to pull a fast one

If previous tenant did not give required notice then that is their problem. Tenants and Landlords have to abide by tanacy law, as you do. If you leave before the legal requirements, you take the hit, same way the landlord does if he ends the tenancy before the law dictates

Incidentally, you are not giving required notice, your fixed term tenancy runs to August so you have a bit to go.

Pat201

How do you mean i am not giving required notice?
Below is taken from onestop shop RTB. I informed landlord mid march that i would be leaving so that means notice period until Mid June.

Duration of a tenancy Tenants notice periods
Less than 6 months 28 days
6+ months, but less than 1 year 35 days
1+ year, but less than 2 years 42 days
2+ years but less than 4 years 56 days
4+ years but less than 8 years 84 days

You are right about previous tenant and it being none of my business but it shows what is a priority with this landlord. They did not lose a cent and gained 500 euro that month. Im just trying to work out what there end game is in my situation as surely in this situation its easier to end tenancy aftert 84 days rather than start a RTB case or ?

RossieMan

No you aren't covered there as youve signed a lease for a fixed term period. You owe rent until the fixed date unless it specifies otherwise in your lease.

Treviso

Once you sent the formal letter to the landlord with the end date and it's more than the 84 days listed above then you have done everything right. You've yet to receive any formal response from the landlord so take it that you'll be leaving at said date and will require your deposit back (once inspection of property is complete). If you do not receive the deposit back, open a case with the RTB.

You are doing everything right in my opinion. Maybe the landlord is more rattled seeing that all 3 of ye are leaving at the same time. When did you sign the lease?

Pat201

Does my Part 4 tenancy switch over to new person if i assign lease? I will tell landlord that i will need to assign the lease over as i cant afford 2 places from June on. If they do not allow then i will walk.

Seems a crazy system as i could assign lease to people that would be very difficult for landlord where as if they did their own search they get the people they want in their home

Pat201

Hey Treviso
Ya its a weird situation as when i told landlord in mid march they said that was okay as i had given enough notice for us all in house. I even offered to get people for her (professional people from my company) but it was declined as they wanted a family as its easier with leases.

Then Last week when i tried to confirm end date based on 84 days notice ( still mid june as i originally said) i started getting replies back about our lease is until end August and need to check with solicitor.

I signed new lease in August 2018 after new person moved in end May.

Tanacy notice for a tenant over 4 years is 112 days. A canttact cannot overrule the law.

https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/notice-periods-that-a-landlord-should-give/

Treviso

Dav010 wrote: »

Tanacy notice for a tenant over 4 years is 112 days. A canttact cannot overrule the law.

https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/notice-periods-that-a-landlord-should-give/

No that the notice the landlord must give a tenant. Its 84 days for a tenant

Treviso

Treviso wrote: »

No that the notice the landlord must give a tenant. Its 84 days for a tenant

Op 4.5 years?

Treviso

There are two tables in that link - one is for the notice a landlord must give a tenant, and one below it is for tenants. OP is there 4.5 years so needs to give 84 days notice

Pat201

That was my understanding 2 from the table. 4.5 years equals 84 days

dennyk

Sounds like OP is currently under a fixed-term lease that doesn't end until August. Unless there's a clause in the lease that allows the tenant to terminate it, he would be responsible for rent for the duration of the lease. If he wants out, he would have to give the legally required notice (84 days) to the landlord with the notice period to expire on a date after his fixed term lease has ended. He could only unilaterally break the lease before the fixed term has ended if the landlord breaches the agreement or unreasonably refuses to allow a sublet or assignment (and in the latter case, the 84 days notice is still required).

The lease could also be terminated early, even without the required notice period, if the landlord and the tenant both agree on a shorter notice period and earlier termination date, but it doesn't sound like the OP's landlord is interested (rather shortsighted on the landlord's part, I'd say, since it doesn't seem a couple months of rent is worth turning an amicable landlord-tenant relationship that's ending smoothly into a hostile one that could well devolve into court cases or overstaying non-paying tenants, especially in a market where the property can probably be re-let in a matter of a few weeks if not days, but some folks are penny-wise and pound-foolish, I suppose...).

Unfortunately if the landlord really doesn't want to agree, the OP will be on the hook for all of the rent through the end of the agreed lease term. They could go try to find someone to assign the lease to, but the tricky part is that they'd still have to abide by the 84 day notice period if the landlord refuses, so it really wouldn't help them if the landlord waits until they actually want to make the assignment in June to say "Well, actually...no." Best bet might be for the OP to look for someone to assign to right now and hope the landlord refuses so notice can be given for early July, but if that backfires and the landlord agrees to it after all, the OP would then have to arrange short-term accommodations somewhere for a month or two, which might end up costing almost as much.

OP, if you do go that route, assignment would be preferable to subletting. Subletting would mean you'd still be responsible to the landlord for the payment of rent and for the condition of the property, so if your subletter doesn't pay you or wrecks the place, it's all on you, and you'd have to pursue them in court yourself to recover anything (and it's illegal to sublet for more than the rent you're paying, so don't go thinking you can sneak in some profit that way to make up for the risk...). With assignment, though, once the lease is assigned, the assignee is then the tenant and you have nothing more to do with the property nor any further responsibility; anything that happens after is entirely between the assignee and the landlord. Subletting is really only preferable if you plan on resuming the tenancy yourself at a later date (e.g. if you were moving away for a limited time but wanted to keep your tenancy in place for when you return).

RossieMan

dennyk wrote:

Sounds like OP is currently under a fixed-term lease that doesn't end until August. Unless there's a clause in the lease that allows the tenant to terminate it, he would be responsible for rent for the duration of the lease. If he wants out, he would have to give the legally required notice (84 days) to the landlord with the notice period to expire on a date after his fixed term lease has ended. He could only unilaterally break the lease before the fixed term has ended if the landlord breaches the agreement or unreasonably refuses to allow a sublet or assignment (and in the latter case, the 84 days notice is still required).

This is the problem and the OP simply wants to ignore they've signed a lease for a fixed term.

Pkiernan

Shame that rogue tenants aren't subject to the same fines rogue landlords are.

The_Conductor

Pkiernan wrote: »

Shame that rogue tenants aren't subject to the same fines rogue landlords are.

They are- its just that they never pay- or if they do- its at some ridiculous reductive rate- 1 Euro a week for example..........

Pat201

Surely I am not first person renting in history that has purchased a house during lease or has everyone perfectly timed that for end of rental agreement before homelessness . Is the real expectation that I pay for both places until end of tenancy? Surely that is financially wreckless. I also do not want to leave landlord stuck. Landlord making me pay 3 months rent when I won't be in house only sours relationship and let's be honest forces me into hard decisions which could impact us both.

If they ended tenancy as I hope then they get new people and possibly even raise rent by allowed amount earlier. As I said earlier, place will be snapped up quickly due to location and current rental market

RossieMan

What's the point of signing a contract if one side can just decide they don't want to pay anymore?

You lose your deposit here, you've no case for keeping it.

Heres Johnny

Pat, if I was you, and all you have said is true, I would engineer it in such a way that you only pay over the amount that reflects your usage of the house and take your deposit into consideration too.
In my opinion the landlord is being unreasonable here and you are being reasonable. It's in Dublin, it will rent out no problem, the landlord does not need to be out of pocket if they just act reasonably so you shouldn't either.

So what if they have to advertise again after 57 months instead of 60.....look after yourself and your new mortgage on this one.

Shefwedfan

Tenant signs lease
Tenant decides he doesn’t want lease anymore
Tenant says they are moving out prior to finish of lease

Please explain to me how the landlord is “screwing” you over?

You should of made sure you are not taking over the house till you finished your current contract. As it is only 2 months you should have agreed this with builder, I’m sure they could of finished someone else’s house if on estate.

The only person getting screw here is the landlord. You are not entitled to deposit back.


Did you make builder aware you had a contract in place till August?

Shefwedfan

Heres Johnny wrote: »

Pat, if I was you, and all you have said is true, I would engineer it in such a way that you only pay over the amount that reflects your usage of the house and take your deposit into consideration too.
In my opinion the landlord is being unreasonable here and you are being reasonable. It's in Dublin, it will rent out no problem, the landlord does not need to be out of pocket if they just act reasonably so you shouldn't either.

So what if they have to advertise again after 57 months instead of 60.....look after yourself and your new mortgage on this one.

Tenant signed a lease, simple as that. What you are suggesting is illegal

Also how exactly are you going to engineer that you only pay a certain amount?

It doesn’t matter where house is, a lease is a lease, if the landlord tried to break it you can imagine the poo he/she would be in

That is the worst advice post I have ever seen

dudara

Pat201 wrote: »

Surely I am not first person renting in history that has purchased a house during lease or has everyone perfectly timed that for end of rental agreement before homelessness . Is the real expectation that I pay for both places until end of tenancy?

If you are on a fixed lease, then you have a legal obligation to pay until the end of the lease. The fact that you are choosing to start paying somewhere else is irrelevant and doesn’t change your obligations under the lease.

Surely that is financially wreckless.

I hate to point it out, but you are the person who has no financial reserve to tide them over. I’m concerned that you are being reckless here. There are lots of expenses associated with buying a house, repairs etc. Do you have reserves to cover these?

I also do not want to leave landlord stuck. Landlord making me pay 3 months rent when I won't be in house only sours relationship and let's be honest forces me into hard decisions which could impact us both. If they ended tenancy as I hope then they get new people and possibly even raise rent by allowed amount earlier. As I said earlier, place will be snapped up quickly due to location and current rental market

I do agree with you here, as have many posters above. I think the landlord is being a bit daft here. But the landlord is legally entitled to do what he’s doing. The only way out if for you to request to reassign the lease, or else negotiate a mutual agreement with the landlord.

Pat201

I am not arguing the point of legality of contract. I am arguing on point of common Sense. Landlord holding me to this contract is only putting me under financial burden and for what benefit? I am saying we have 2.5 months now to get new tenants. This is a place in Dublin and anyone who is renting know that a good place can be off market in a few days. It's a landlords market with lack of rental supply.

Before I get the contract is contract reply, this is same landlord that sent a letter 10 months ago demanding for rent increase from 1600 from 2100 as one of the tenants girlfriend stayed over 2 nights a week sometime s and we were accused of subletting. Eviction was other option. 3 people in a 3 bed apartment so dunno how they worked the maths on that one. Place is in RPZ.

Same solicitor advice sought by landlord there . Was not long backing down when prtb were involved and my housemate solicitor sent a letter requesting information on accusation. As I said I think landlord has agenda.

Pat201

Pat201 wrote: »

I am not arguing the point of legality of contract. I am arguing on point of common Sense. Landlord holding me to this contract is only putting me under financial burden and for what benefit? I am saying we have 2.5 months now to get new tenants. This is a place in Dublin and anyone who is renting know that a good place can be off market in a few days. It's a landlords market with lack of rental supply.

Before I get the contract is contract reply, this is same landlord that sent a letter 10 months ago demanding for rent increase from 1600 from 2100 as one of the tenants girlfriend stayed over 2 nights a week sometime s and we were accused of subletting. Eviction was other option. 3 people in a 3 bed apartment so dunno how they worked the maths on that one. Place is in RPZ.

Same solicitor advice sought by landlord there . Was not long backing down when prtb were involved and my housemate solicitor sent a letter requesting information on accusation. As I said I think landlord has agenda.

It seems you are arguing that common sense should apply, as long as it benefits you.

Anyone reading this thread understands the point you are making, you want out of the contract early so you don’t have to pay for time you are not there. That is fair enough, but you also think you are getting screwed/LL is being unreasonable just because he is following tenancy law/getting legal advice.

Right now, he is doing everything by the book.

It would equally be common sense to look for an increase in rent if more than the agreed number of people are staying in a property, you were quick to use the RTB to prevent this, this would appear to be karma, he is entitled to use the exact same legislation as you did.

Pat201

Well when your threatened with rent increase or eviction within 28 days then you get the right people involved.

Think you have hit the nail on the head about reason landlord is doing this Dav010. The reason I'm not paying 500 euro more in rent is landlord was wrong. Probably why it's not wise to just throw accusations around the place

Pkiernan

Pat201 wrote: »

Well when your threatened with rent increase or eviction within 28 days then you get the right people involved.

Think you have hit the nail on the head about reason landlord is doing this Dav010. The reason I'm not paying 500 euro more in rent is landlord was wrong. Probably why it's not wise to just throw accusations around the place

If the landlord illegally ended your tenancy 3 months early he'd be suject to 10k fines.

You just get to waltz off owing money without consequences.
Classy.

Pat201

Landlord will not be out of pocket. I will offer to assign lease and will have no issue getting people but let's be honest I will not be picky as it's not my place. If landlord refuses that then that is their decision. With timeline I've given landlord could get the best people for their place.

Landlord has all the choices in this situation

The_Conductor

Pat201 wrote: »

Landlord will not be out of pocket. I will offer to assign lease and will have no issue getting people but let's be honest I will not be picky as it's not my place. If landlord refuses that then that is their decision. With timeline I've given landlord could get the best people for their place.

Landlord has all the choices in this situation

The only logical thing for a landlord to do in a situation like this- is to seek proper legal advice.

Note- you mention that the property is let to multiple people- in a situation like this- you are normally jointly and severally liable for the rent of the entire property- regardless of whether you've only been renting a room in the property. If all parties signed the same lease last August- this is the case (if you all signed different individual leases- its not). So- if you were assigning the lease to another party- you'd be assigning the lease for the entire property- and not just your interest in the joint lease- this would also involve the others who are renting the property- as they have a vested interest in the lease too.

The landlord is being wise getting proper advice- as it could get very messy- very very quickly. Just because it seems like a nice and neat and tidy arrangement for you- does not mean it stacks up if someone (for example one of your current housemates) were to challenge it.

The regulatory regime is a legal minefield- the landlord is being prudent in getting good advice.

Pat201

Pat201 wrote: »

Landlord will not be out of pocket. I will offer to assign lease and will have no issue getting people but let's be honest I will not be picky as it's not my place. If landlord refuses that then that is their decision. With timeline I've given landlord could get the best people for their place.

Landlord has all the choices in this situation

That is the thing to do, find people to rent apartment, give the notice to assign, then give correct notice that you are leaving.

Tenants are never picky about who they assign to, the point of doing it is to end a tenancy early, not to get the best possible tenants for the LL. He will probably refuse anyway so it won’t matter who you get.

Whether the LL is out of pocket or not really isn’t relevant if he is abiding by Tenamcy regulations. By the sounds of things the relationship soured 10 months ago when you guys (rightly) went to a solicitor, now it is his turn.

Pat201

I could be wrong and landlord will be sound about situation and allow us all to leave in June. I will update thread when I know

The_Conductor

What happens if your house isn't ready on time- or if one of your housemates decides to overhold?
Are you in a position to pay for the entire property for the duration?

Pat201

House will be ready as it's nearly done now. Painting done last week. Housemates are extended family and will move with me so no fear of overhold

JustAThought

Pat201 wrote: »

House will be ready as it's nearly done now. Painting done last week. Housemates are extended family and will move with me so no fear of overhold

Self entitlement & suiting oneself despite a contract in place - its no wonder landlords are asking for 3 months rent deposit in advance.

The_Conductor

Pat201 wrote: »

House will be ready as it's nearly done now. Painting done last week. Housemates are extended family and will move with me so no fear of overhold

I smiled when I read this.
If I had a pound for the number of people who have expressed similar sentiments- I'd be a rich person.
Houses being ready on time- are the exception, not the norm.
Even your extended family could decide that they don't want to move (for whatever reason)- you have to look at the bigger picture and ignore the rose tinted glasses.

I've a manager whose house snagging has taken 3+ months- its not unheard of.

Chase your builders and make sure your ducks are lined up properly on your end- thereafter- the landlord is just protecting himself- let him/her get their advice- and try to find a common ground, cognisant of the mess of legislation that governs the sector............

RossieMan

Pat201 wrote:

I could be wrong and landlord will be sound about situation and allow us all to leave in June. I will update thread when I know

It's crazy how you seem so self entitled to this early release when you've absolutely no entitlement to it whatsoever.

The landlord is sound if if they make you see out your contract. You're the one trying to bend the rules to suit you.

This is your typical case of people not giving you the answer you want, and you choosing to ignore those answers because they aren't what you want to hear.

Serious problems in this country which is damaging every tenants ability to rent fairly when it's only a handful who try to be sneaky and deceptive for their own benefit.

Pat201

That's your opinion, your welcome to it.

Shefwedfan

Pat201 wrote: »

I am not arguing the point of legality of contract. I am arguing on point of common Sense. Landlord holding me to this contract is only putting me under financial burden and for what benefit? I am saying we have 2.5 months now to get new tenants. This is a place in Dublin and anyone who is renting know that a good place can be off market in a few days. It's a landlords market with lack of rental supply.

Did you make the builder aware you are currently in a contract and could not take over the house for another few months?

Old diesel

Pat201 wrote: »

Hey Treviso
Ya its a weird situation as when i told landlord in mid march they said that was okay as i had given enough notice for us all in house. I even offered to get people for her (professional people from my company) but it was declined as they wanted a family as its easier with leases.

Then Last week when i tried to confirm end date based on 84 days notice ( still mid june as i originally said) i started getting replies back about our lease is until end August and need to check with solicitor.

I signed new lease in August 2018 after new person moved in end May.

Not sure if anyone picked up on the fact that Pat offered in March to find new people for the house.

But Landlord declined the offer.

dennyk

Old diesel wrote: »

Not sure if anyone picked up on the fact that Pat offered in March to find new people for the house.

But Landlord declined the offer.

Hmm, that sounds like an offer of assignment and an unreasonable refusal (as "I prefer a family because it's easier" is not a reasonable reason to refuse assignment, and would technically be illegal discrimination besides). If OP has that exchange in writing, he'd have a good case to serve notice immediately, I'd think.

irelandrover

Honestly I think the landlord is right to do everything by the book. You've already shown that you'll go legal as you got the prtb involved earlier. You can't really complain when the landlord gets legal advice when you want to break a contract.

Old diesel

dennyk wrote: »

Old diesel wrote: »

Not sure if anyone picked up on the fact that Pat offered in March to find new people for the house.

But Landlord declined the offer.

Hmm, that sounds like an offer of assignment and an unreasonable refusal (as "I prefer a family because it's easier" is not a reasonable reason to refuse assignment, and would technically be illegal discrimination besides). If OP has that exchange in writing, he'd have a good case to serve notice immediately, I'd think.

I thought the same on reassignment hence my post.

The problem is proving it.

Lesson for anyone else in similar situation in future - make that offer in writing.

Using proper terminology - ie reassignment of lease.

Legally you might be tied into a contract to August but paying rent on a house you've returned the keys off to Landlord and thus have no access to is very frustrating.

I dont really see postponing the house purchase as a solution either. A builder can easily resell that house to someone who can move fast.

Pat201

Nothing official raised against landlord in prtb. Case was pulled when landlord admitted they were wrong. This was after we supplied a rental letter for the girlfriend of one of housemates showing she lived elsewhere.

@ irelandrover
How would you have dealt with 28 day eviction or 500 euro rent increase ?

@dennyk
It was sent to me via WhatsApp

irelandrover

Pat201 wrote: »

@ irelandrover
How would you have dealt with 28 day eviction or 500 euro rent increase ?

The same way. But you can't be surprised when the landlord takes legal advice when dealing with you now.

Shefwedfan

Old diesel wrote: »

Not sure if anyone picked up on the fact that Pat offered in March to find new people for the house.

But Landlord declined the offer.

That’s a useless offer. Tenant wants out and could stick in the first person willing to take the house, then landlord is left with trying to deal with the person who has taken over the house....person could be a nightmare but it’s the landlords issue then