Referees

Baby01032012

I'm looking for a job as my current fixed term contract is coming to an end.

I've worked for a lot of companies and a lot of contracts. I have one good referee but I don't have a second referee to use which is my problem. I would have the standard letters confirming my role and dates but not a second referee that an employer could call.

Ive been 16 out of 18 months in my current contract. My relationship with my current employer has been difficult at times. I've had to escalate things which didn't show him in best light in order to get the job done. I was going to just ask my current boss if I can use him as a referee. All he can do is say no. I honestly don't think he would give a bad reference. Any thoughts?

Baby01032012

Baby01032012 wrote: »

I'm looking for a job as my current fixed term contract is coming to an end.

I've worked for a lot of companies and a lot of contracts. I have one good referee but I don't have a second referee to use which is my problem. I would have the standard letters confirming my role and dates but not a second referee that an employer could call.

Ive been 16 out of 18 months in my current contract. My relationship with my current employer has been difficult at times. I've had to escalate things which didn't show him in best light in order to get the job done. I was going to just ask my current boss if I can use him as a referee. All he can do is say no. I honestly don't think he would give a bad reference. Any thoughts?

You showed him up, and now want to ask him if a new employer can contact him for a reference? Maybe give that a little more consideration. He may not write a bad reference but the aul “would you employ this person again?” question is a killer.

Why if you have worked in many jobs have you only one good reference?

Baby01032012

Yeah I know its probably not the best scenario, however im desperate. I could go back to my previous employer for a reference- a 1 year contract 16 months ago. He gave a verbal reference then when I was moving to my current contract. But 16 months later im not sure. We got on ok.


The truth is I didn't leave on best of terms from a lot of those jobs and that's why I don't have referees to turn to.

_Brian

I wouldn’t ask him.
Nothing to stop him telling the truth that you were not an easy employee or over zealous at sticking it to management.

There must be one other employer from your past that you would use.

Baby01032012

I will have to go back to 2005 which is probably too long back. Some of the companies I worked for closed down so I wouldn't have a contact there anymore.

_Brian

Baby01032012 wrote: »

Yeah I know its probably not the best scenario, however im desperate. I could go back to my previous employer for a reference- a 1 year contract 16 months ago. He gave a verbal reference then when I was moving to my current contract. But 16 months later im not sure. We got on ok.


The truth is I didn't leave on best of terms from a lot of those jobs and that's why I don't have referees to turn to.

Use this person you mentioned above..


Lastly..
Remember if your moving jobs allot getting a reference is important, its ok'ish to call managment out an odd time if you do it constructively, but if your constantly at it as you correctly assess it reduces chances of a reference going forward..

OMM 0000

Only use referees from people you know liked you or thought you were good.

Don't take a risk with a bitter ex-boss.

Could a senior colleague provide you with a reference?

Baby01032012

I’m going to ask last employer who gave me verbal reference to get current job. I did ask referee from 14 year ago who said he would but that it might be too long to be acceptable.

Baby01032012

The previous employer has not responded to my request. I thanked him for his previous verbal reference to get this role. And asked if he could provide one more time.

I may need to go back to employer from 14 years ago and take risk that it will not be acceptable.

Baby01032012

Baby01032012 wrote: »

The previous employer has not responded to my request. I thanked him for his previous verbal reference to get this role. And asked if he could provide one more time.

I may need to go back to employer from 14 years ago and take risk that it will not be acceptable.

Do you not think alarm bells will be ringing if your CV outlines the jobs you have had, but your only referee is from 14 years ago? I would think that it is very unusual that you don’t have a more recent one.

runawaybishop

Baby01032012 wrote: »

The previous employer has not responded to my request. I thanked him for his previous verbal reference to get this role. And asked if he could provide one more time.

I may need to go back to employer from 14 years ago and take risk that it will not be acceptable.

Get a more recent reference from a customer or colleague.

runawaybishop

runawaybishop wrote: »

Get a more recent reference from a customer or colleague.

Begs the question, why won’t previous employers give a reference for this applicant? Would many employers accept a reference from a customer/colleagues rather than a manager/employer?

Baby01032012

Thanks all I appreciate your responses.

How about a large client - I orginally dealt with 6 years ago. He offered me to interview for his position when he was moving within the company. As he was UK based i kindly declined. I also dealt with him as a client 3 years ago when i moved jobs and he moved companies to another large client.

OMM 0000

Baby01032012 wrote: »

Thanks all I appreciate your responses.

How about a large client - I orginally dealt with 6 years ago. He offered me to interview for his position when he was moving within the company. As he was UK based i kindly declined. I also dealt with him as a client 3 years ago when i moved jobs and he moved companies to another large client.

Seems kind of weird.

A boss of some sort, or a senior colleague, is much better.

The client doesn't know your day to day ability.

Baby01032012

Fair enough.

However in a strong client facing role I’d think how I interacted with a key client should be worthy of a reference.

OMM 0000

Baby01032012 wrote: »

Fair enough.

However in a strong client facing role I’d think how I interacted with a key client should be worthy of a reference.

I think if you're struggling to find references, it's OK.

But as a manager I'm more interested in knowing what your colleagues think of you.

I know most people won't say anything negative on the phone when giving a reference, but I can usually read between the lines. Are they struggling to say something positive, are they being very neutral, etc.

I'm not sure I'd get this from one of your clients.

runawaybishop

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Seems kind of weird.

A boss of some sort, or a senior colleague, is much better.

The client doesn't know your day to day ability.

Depends on the relationship, in contracting you would often work directly with the client in a relationship more like boss/employee.

runawaybishop

runawaybishop wrote: »

Depends on the relationship, in contracting you would often work directly with the client in a relationship more like boss/employee.

True, but you are working for your employer and that is what a new employer wants a reference for.

runawaybishop

Dav010 wrote: »

True, but you are working for your employer and that is what a new employer wants a reference for.

Yeah, but if the op felt that would work out ok we wouldnt have this thread

skallywag

Under no circumstances use your current boss, never name a referee unless you are certain they will sing your praises.

You say you already have one good referee. Are you sure that another will really be required? In my case I always check with a relatively recent employer, but one is adequate for me to be satisfied.

Even if a company has since closed, you can still use a referee from your time there. Can you perhaps track someone down on linkedin etc?

Naming a client may be your only option if you really need that second referee. That might work out for you, albeit that it is indeed a bit unusual.

Baby01032012

Thanks for the advice.

I’ve sent on client referee details to the potential employer, will see how they view it.

Generally it is 2 referees. My current employer insisted on it. I’m even dealing with agencies who will not send you forward to potential employers until they have received and verified 2 referees.

OMM 0000

Can I ask:

Have you figured out why you left so many jobs on bad terms?

Have you been able to resolve this?

_Brian

Baby01032012 wrote: »

Thanks for the advice.

I’ve sent on client referee details to the potential employer, will see how they view it.

Generally it is 2 referees. My current employer insisted on it. I’m even dealing with agencies who will not send you forward to potential employers until they have received and verified 2 referees.

The agency are right. Forwarding poor candidates damages their reputation. Not being able to provide two stable references by previous employers is a major red flag to someone hiring staff.

caviardreams

I agree re the value of references - sure the best way to get rid of somebody useless is to give them a great reference for another employer :P but I guess it is just part of due diligence and at least if the candidate turns out to be a disaster somebody can cover themselves and say references were checked etc.

skallywag

Mr.S wrote: »

...but character references are always going to be positive and glowing, why else would the employee submit them?...

You would be surprised. I have had instances where the referee has made it very clear that the person in question was not someone who they would vouch for. That is why I always advise making absolutely sure that your referee is going to sing your praises, i.e. pick someone who you know you impressed or who gave you clear positive feedback.

It's often argued as well that the referee is simply going to be spoofing. This is not my own experience though. Many industries are very tightly connected, and even more so today in the digital age. No manager/employer I know at least is going to sing someones praises when they do not deserve it. Industry rep is critical as you advance in your career, and nobody is going to risk it by selling someone else a dud.

dreamers75

You cant give a bad reference, also with GDPR you actually legally cant give a reference. I think we are all just glossing over that and waiting for the inevitable sap to sue someone and kill references altogether.

Regardless of your relationship with your boss they cant give a bad reference, they can state you worked there from X to X <<< thats the worst reference ever but most employers look at an applicant as someone wanting out so dont take them seriously. As per their policy they have to check 2 references.

2 recent examples i experienced.

Rang the lads manager and he gave literally the best reference ever, I told the lad to take a few days to think this tru and talk to his manager about his current job I would call him again in 4 days and offer him the job again. Seems he hates his manager and never got on with them and couldnt understand the good reference (I did). Lad started 2 weeks later.

had to correct one manager who literally slated the person from the get go because "he was leaving" explained he coudlnt actually say bad things but he told me "he didnt give a **** chap was a waster". Explained I will pass this information on if the chap asks. Chap had 5* reviews for 2 years currently suing his ex employer for various ****e.

I record all references and ensure the other person is aware before doing so.

dreamers75

dreamers75 wrote: »

You cant give a bad reference, also with GDPR you actually legally cant give a reference..

Wrong on both counts.

You can give a bad reference, it must be truthful and you must be able you substantiate whatever you say. You can’t say bad things which are untrue, but that is very different from your statement that you can’t give.a bad reference.

If the op authorises their new employer to contact a referee to discuss her work and actually gives contact details, GDPR would not be an issue as she has given permission for this discussion to take place. This is why it is important to be sure that the referee you give is going to give you a good reference, because he/she has your permission to discuss your performance with the person you gave the referees contact details to.

The question I ask and most often get asked is “would you employ him/her again?” If there is someone like yourself who records the conversation (personally I’d tell you to piss off), the answer should tell you everything you need to know.

As an employer, I would be a little apprehensive about an prospective employee who was suing previous employer, and I would appreciate the off the record heads up about this because, though it may well be the employer in the wrong, it could also be the employee is s nightmare. When you start your conversation with “I’m recording this and will give it to the person we are talking about” I really can’t see how that benefits you/your company. A good manager won’t have to rely on a recording to protect the company, he/she will be able to pick up on the subtleties of what is being said in a conversation between two managers/peers probably in the same industriy.

skallywag

dreamers75 wrote: »

You cant give a bad reference

You hear this a lot but it's complete nonsense to be frank. It is very easy to make it clear that you would not vouch for someone without actually saying anything bad about them.

I think folks generally need to wise up too about what GDPR actually is. If a potential employee names a referee that you are allowed to contact, do you really think that GDPR means that I then cannot speak to this person?

ongarboy

dreamers75 wrote: »

You cant give a bad reference, also with GDPR you actually legally cant give a reference. I think we are all just glossing over that and waiting for the inevitable sap to sue someone and kill references altogether.

Regardless of your relationship with your boss they cant give a bad reference, they can state you worked there from X to X <<< thats the worst reference ever but most employers look at an applicant as someone wanting out so dont take them seriously. As per their policy they have to check 2 references.

2 recent examples i experienced.

Rang the lads manager and he gave literally the best reference ever, I told the lad to take a few days to think this tru and talk to his manager about his current job I would call him again in 4 days and offer him the job again. Seems he hates his manager and never got on with them and couldnt understand the good reference (I did). Lad started 2 weeks later.

had to correct one manager who literally slated the person from the get go because "he was leaving" explained he coudlnt actually say bad things but he told me "he didnt give a **** chap was a waster". Explained I will pass this information on if the chap asks. Chap had 5* reviews for 2 years currently suing his ex employer for various ****e.

I record all references and ensure the other person is aware before doing so.

I'm curious to know why would you as a recruiter puts so much emphasis on letting every candidate know if they were slated in a reference? Yes, I know it might help the candidate to not provide such a reference again if they were unaware previously that they were being bad-mouthed by referees but it almost sounds like you have vendetta or something to correct the wrongs of the hiring world (perhaps based on a past negative experience encountered yourself?). This is not how recruiters normally operate.

How would you know enough or be personally witness to a past relationship between candidate and referee to "correct" that referee? - every manager/employee dynamic/relationship or workplace culture can be different - maybe the candidate was the wrong fit for that company? You may challenge the referee saying this feedback is at odds to all others you've been receiving but to categorically declare their reference is false when you weren't witness to the working relationship is naive and again, seems to be based off some vendetta or cause you have. You seem to relish the fact your employee is now suing his ex company and it's like you're taking credit for exposing it.

Unusual behavior and possibly could have you end up in legal hot water if you share information (paraphrased or not) that could be challenged by those you are now "bad mouthing"!

_Brian

dreamers75 wrote: »

You cant give a bad reference, also with GDPR you actually legally cant give a reference. I think we are all just glossing over that and waiting for the inevitable sap to sue someone and kill references altogether.

Regardless of your relationship with your boss they cant give a bad reference, they can state you worked there from X to X <<< thats the worst reference ever but most employers look at an applicant as someone wanting out so dont take them seriously. As per their policy they have to check 2 references.

2 recent examples i experienced.

Rang the lads manager and he gave literally the best reference ever, I told the lad to take a few days to think this tru and talk to his manager about his current job I would call him again in 4 days and offer him the job again. Seems he hates his manager and never got on with them and couldnt understand the good reference (I did). Lad started 2 weeks later.

had to correct one manager who literally slated the person from the get go because "he was leaving" explained he coudlnt actually say bad things but he told me "he didnt give a **** chap was a waster". Explained I will pass this information on if the chap asks. Chap had 5* reviews for 2 years currently suing his ex employer for various ****e.

I record all references and ensure the other person is aware before doing so.

You can absolutely give a bad reference, so long as you have evidence to substantiate it should it be questioned.

Giving honest references is a topic among managers, many I know will give glowing references to total idiots to get them off the books, it’s something I’d disagree with.

Where an employee has had significant issues I will either:

Give a vague reference of employment and refuse to comment on timekeeping or discipline, leaving other person to draw their own conclusions.

To other managers I know and respect I will give 100% honest reference warts and all.


It’s completely insane though to be telling people they can’t get a bad reference.

Baby01032012

OP here.

Thanks for all responses and discussion.

I got two good referees to vouch for me. 2 who I would have reported into or were more senior than me.

However one employment is 8 years ago and other is just over 10. As I’ve had mostly contract work in last 10 years it’s been hard to get a proper referee.

I’m looking to move to a particular job. However they said my referees are too old so they want current or previous employer. I had emailed previous employer 3 weeks ago as he gave reference to get me my current job. However he never got back to me. I emailed again yesterday in desperation setting out my situation. I’ve also emailed my current manager explaining that I’ve given my usual referees however prospective employer wants current manager reference. I’ve said to him I feel I have to other option to ask as I need this job.

I’ve tried to be as open as I can. Neither have responded. I don’t know what more to do. I’ve stayed full length of my contract with current employer I’ve got them through some tough times work wise when someone left. I’ve brought a lot of experience as a result of that I’ve made suggestions and escalated when clients were being ignored or in danger of leaving. That has led to poor relationship with my current managers. However HR have told me the client servicing side of the business have been very happy with me. Unfortunately I don’t report into that side of the business.

I’m in danger of loosing this prospective job.

ongarboy

OP - I would take the old fashioned approach and try and call your referees and explain your situation. Unless you had some bad falling out with them (which you shouldn't declare them as referees in that case), most will surely be decent enough to oblige. Busy managers inboxes are flooded with dozens or 100s of mails each day so things like reference requests may get missed or put on the long finger. Try phoning and see if that helps as it adds a human touch to the interaction.

fryup

make up one...give the number of one of your mates down the pub and just have him pose as a manager of a now defunked company e.g. HMV

skallywag

fryup wrote: »

make up one...give the number of one of your mates down the pub and just have him pose as a manager of a now defunked company e.g. HMV

I hope you are kidding? Any hiring manager worth their salt will see through this after about the 3rd question.

OP, I echo the above advice to call these guys directly and them would they be happy to act as a referee for you. You will also be able to judge by the tone of their voice etc. as to how likely they are to sing your praises.

I see the point concerning referees which are ca 10 years old, I would also question this myself.

Mrs OBumble

Baby01032012 wrote: »

However HR have told me the client servicing side of the business have been very happy with me. Unfortunately I don’t report into that side of the business.

It usually doesn't matter whether you have a formal reporting relationship with them.

Call someone suitable from client services, explain the situation and ask them to be a referee.

dreamers75

_Brian wrote: »

You can absolutely give a bad reference, so long as you have evidence to substantiate it should it be questioned.



It’s completely insane though to be telling people they can’t get a bad reference.

You give me a bad reference and i will sue you And it wont matter that you have "proof" several WRC decisions and High Court defamations that went in the employees favour even when the employer had "proof" (absences, tardiness, performance reviews etc) didnt matter in the legal end of things.

So dont give a reference, not sure if you are in a postiion to give references but I would advise you (your HR and legal will also) to not give a bad reference just confirm the employee worked there from X to X and leave it at that. It is literally the worst reference ever and if asked would you hire them again "no comment".

slavetothegrind

dreamers75 wrote: »

You give me a bad reference and i will sue you And it wont matter that you have "proof" several WRC decisions and High Court defamations that went in the employees favour even when the employer had "proof" (absences, tardiness, performance reviews etc) didnt matter in the legal end of things.

So dont give a reference, not sure if you are in a postiion to give references but I would advise you (your HR and legal will also) to not give a bad reference just confirm the employee worked there from X to X and leave it at that. It is literally the worst reference ever and if asked would you hire them again "no comment".

sue away, if it is the truth unembelished says my idealist self.
In truth i would actually say they started on x date and left on y, that's all i have to say about that!

dreamers75

dreamers75 wrote: »

You give me a bad reference and i will sue you And it wont matter that you have "proof" several WRC decisions and High Court defamations that went in the employees favour even when the employer had "proof" (absences, tardiness, performance reviews etc) didnt matter in the legal end of things.

So dont give a reference, not sure if you are in a postiion to give references but I would advise you (your HR and legal will also) to not give a bad reference just confirm the employee worked there from X to X and leave it at that. It is literally the worst reference ever and if asked would you hire them again "no comment".

That is really interesting that employees sued over bad references which could be proved, have you links to these “several cases”? they should be compulsory reading for anyone in a position to give a reference.

I assume the cases you refer to are related to bad references only, and not for instance cases taken for unfair dismissal where cases are often lost due to procedural issues.

Uk and Irish law is very similar, this employment advice site references a recent case Hinks v Sense Networks (June 2018) where a judge sided with an employer against an employee who sued because of a bad reference.

http://www.employmentrightsadvice.ie/employer/ending-the-employment/employment-references

This seems to be a pretty good guide on providing a reference, as you can see from the legal advice given, if you can substantiate the reference, it’s truthful and created without malice, then you can sue away if you want.

http://hayes-solicitors.ie/Guidance-for-Employers-regarding-the-provision-of-employee-references-

Here’s another article on the importance of employee references when job hunting.

https://www.morganmckinley.ie/article/making-mess-your-references-can-kill-good-opportunity

skallywag

dreamers75 wrote: »

...and if asked would you hire them again "no comment".

This is nearly always the last question that I get asked myself when acting as referee, and the last question which I ask myself. If I was not happy with the person in question I will answer this question 'no' (while going into no further details if probed), and not with 'no comment'.

This is a simple statement of fact, and does not involve me going out of my way to knock someone. It does send the crystal clear message though that this person is not someone who I would recommend.

Baby01032012

Op here.

I’ve secured the job I wanted. My boss eventuallly agreed to give a reference with a gentle nudge from HR. I over heard most of the phone reference given. Obviously I didn’t hear the questions but I don’t think he did me any favors in his answers. He is not a confident person and would create doubt even with the best employer. I thanked him anyway afterwards. I think it was my other referees that got me over the line.

skallywag

Fair play OP, glad it worked out.