Commercial motor tax question

VanPercy

Question for some bright spark please:

1. I own a Limited Company -l
2. Also PAYE worker
3. Want to buy a pick up truck vehicle privately; and use it for work in the Ltd company
4. Would the motor tax be a commercial tax?
5.does the truck have to be classified as anything specifically on its log book?
6. In this case I’d be saying to the insurance company; that the truck will be only used for commercial/business purposes? Or would it for to be for personal &business use? I would be happy if I could own it personally and just insure it for use in the business(ie commercial ly?) And if so does that effect my ability to tax it for 333€?

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Widdensushi

So you are buying it with private funds not from the company, imo you can then charge the company mileage.

VanPercy

Widdensushi wrote: »

So you are buying it with private funds not from the company, imo you can then charge the company mileage.

Yes that is correct.

My question is more related to a) can I commercially tax it as I have purchased outside of company.

can it be insured purely for the use for business or can it be private&business; and if so is there a big difference in price between the two?

VanPercy

VanPercy wrote: »

Yes that is correct.

My question is more related to a) can I commercially tax it as I have purchased outside of company.

You should have no difficulty in taxing it commercially, plenty of people have commercials without a business and manage to tax them commercially it should be easy enough for you to do so.

VanPercy wrote: »

can it be insured purely for the use for business or can it be private&business; and if so is there a big difference in price between the two?

Insurance companies know full well everyone with a commercial also uses them privately so all commercial policies cover private use also.

elperello

Check the motor tax section of your local authority web site.
Somewhere there you will find a list of the documentation they require to tax commercially.
If you can get all that together there should be no problem taxing for €333.

You have to go to the tax office for the first time taxing after that it can be renewed online.

Different local authorities have different requirements that's why you need to look up your own LA.


As above insurance will cover private and commercial.

ted1

I assume that as it’s your own business you are in all 24/7.

Yep commercial with no bik

uck51js9zml2yt

Rf111 A, commercial insurance cert and valid DOE.

Del2005

Lamar Millions Farmyard wrote: »

You should have no difficulty in taxing it commercially, plenty of people have commercials without a business and manage to tax them commercially it should be easy enough for you to do so.



Insurance companies know full well everyone with a commercial also uses them privately so all commercial policies cover private use also.

The OP wants to use it privately so suppling false information on statutory documents is required. Plenty of people lie, but it's still an offence.

Del2005

Del2005 wrote: »

The OP wants to use it privately so suppling false information on statutory documents is required. Plenty of people lie, but it's still an offence.

He said he wants to use it primilary for work imo if you read the op, of course some private use is going to happen too, who cares. Look I know some people get their knickers in a twist over commercial tax but I’m not one of them. I’m Just after another couple of months stint of driving a commercial vehicle for 95% private use and commuting so as you can guess I’m not against the private use of commercials as it’s a ridiculous system anyway. A commercial vehicle should have commercial tax regardless of its usage.

Isambard

if you read what you quoted, he said exactly what you are saying. It's not permitted to use a commercially taxed vehicle for non commercial purposes, but plenty of people do.

Isambard

Isambard wrote: »

if you read what you quoted, he said exactly what you are saying. It's not permitted to use a commercially taxed vehicle for non commercial purposes, but plenty of people do.

I’d say every single person who has a commercially taxed vehicle uses it for at least some private use.

elperello

The OP has a clear business reason for having the commercial vehicle for his own limited company.
He has no need to tell any lies to obtain commercial tax.
However in his day to day use of the van he runs into an anomaly in our motor tax system

So take a normal working day, say he goes to PAYE work in the van so he can collect goods for his limited company on the way home.
Is he using the van for private purposes between home and PAYE work?

Is he supposed to drive to work in another vehicle and go back home to collect his van?
Or should he forgo the lower commercial tax and tax his work vehicle privately?

Isambard

elperello wrote: »

The OP has a clear business reason for having the commercial vehicle for his own limited company.
He has no need to tell any lies to obtain commercial tax.
However in his day to day use of the van he runs into an anomaly in our motor tax system

So take a normal working day, say he goes to PAYE work in the van so he can collect goods for his limited company on the way home.
Is he using the van for private purposes between home and PAYE work?

Is he supposed to drive to work in another vehicle and go back home to collect his van?
Or should he forgo the lower commercial tax and tax his work vehicle privately?

Yes, strictly he should, he is not entitled to use the van for private use. No one does that though.

Del2005

Lamar Millions Farmyard wrote: »

He said he wants to use it primilary for work imo if you read the op, of course some private use is going to happen too, who cares. Look I know some people get their knickers in a twist over commercial tax but I’m not one of them. I’m Just after another couple of months stint of driving a commercial vehicle for 95% private use and commuting so as you can guess I’m not against the private use of commercials as it’s a ridiculous system anyway. A commercial vehicle should have commercial tax regardless of its usage.

The OP and everyone else is commiting tax fraud though. Would you be happy if they lied on their tax returns about their companies earning or their income? It's the exact same thing, but since you are also avoiding tax you are OK with tax avoidance.

elperello

Del2005 wrote: »

The OP and everyone else is commiting tax fraud though. Would you be happy if they lied on their tax returns about their companies earning or their income? It's the exact same thing, but since you are also avoiding tax you are OK with tax avoidance.

Maybe you are being a bit hard on the OP.
He has a business and a bona fide reason for using a vehicle with commercial tax.

The Motor Tax system puts someone like him at a disadvantage for no good reason.

Del2005

elperello wrote: »

Maybe you are being a bit hard on the OP.
He has a business and a bona fide reason for using a vehicle with commercial tax.

The Motor Tax system puts someone like him at a disadvantage for no good reason.

They have a bona fida business and they can use the van for this. But they asked about also using it privately and the law is clear that once its not being used 100% for business then it has to be taxed privately.

elperello

Del2005 wrote: »

They have a bona fida business and they can use the van for this. But they asked about also using it privately and the law is clear that once its not being used 100% for business then it has to be taxed privately.

What you say is correct.

However the OP hasn't even bought the pick up yet and and you said he is committing tax fraud.
His original question mentioned personal use only in the context of insurance.
He is only asking about options.

In my opinion the current rules regarding commercial motor tax are overly strict and unenforceable but that's just me.

honda boi

So has anyone been done for using a commercial vehicle for any private use?

honda boi

honda boi wrote: »

So has anyone been done for using a commercial vehicle for any private use?

I've never even heard of someone being questioned about it (nor have I myself) and I know a lot of people who drive commercially taxed vehicles being used anywhere from 20% to 100% for private use.

Reckless Abandonment

What ever about road tax. Check out your insurance. Commercial insurance has gone made over the last few years.

Reckless Abandonment

Reckless Abandonment wrote: »

What ever about road tax. Check out your insurance. Commercial insurance has gone made over the last few years.

Even with mirroring my no claims across from a car policy a commercial policy is costing no more than the car policy. Around 600 euro fully comp.

All commercial policies (well anyone I've come across anyway) cover you for all private use, commuting etc also so no worries on the insurance side at all.

Isambard

elperello wrote: »

What you say is correct.

However the OP hasn't even bought the pick up yet and and you said he is committing tax fraud.
His original question mentioned personal use only in the context of insurance.
He is only asking about options.

In my opinion the current rules regarding commercial motor tax are overly strict and unenforceable but that's just me.

In my view , a concession for cheaper tax for business users is overly unfair, but I can swallow that, but when they then want to use the vehicle for some or even mostly private use, it's taking the urine. What's more , it's a business expense and is set against their tax, I can't do that.

jeepcj

Lamar Millions Farmyard wrote: »

Even with mirroring my no claims across from a car policy a commercial policy is costing no more than the car policy. Around 600 euro fully comp.

All commercial policies (well anyone I've come across anyway) cover you for all private use, commuting etc also so no worries on the insurance side at all.

Please tell me where you are getting quotes for 600 euro for a commercial pick up, i pay 1000 fully comp for my navara and thats the best i can find. full no claims bonus, no points,

Reckless Abandonment

jeepcj wrote: »

Please tell me where you are getting quotes for 600 euro for a commercial pick up, i pay 1000 fully comp for my navara and thats the best i can find. full no claims bonus, no points,

Was paying 1200 on 161 golf van. 600 is very good.

elperello

Isambard wrote: »

In my view , a concession for cheaper tax for business users is overly unfair, but I can swallow that, but when they then want to use the vehicle for some or even mostly private use, it's taking the urine. What's more , it's a business expense and is set against their tax, I can't do that.

It's not necessarily cheaper tax.

Take the example of a Berlingo/Partner van the workhorse of small tradesmen.
Commercial Tax €333

Berlingo Multispace (car version with same 1.6 HDI engine).
Private Tax €280

If the small tradesman wants to tax his van privately it will cost him €514 because they are still using the cc rates for vans.

These small tradesmen/sole traders are the type of people we all depend on to get jobs done. It is simply impossible for small operators like this to comply 100% with the current motor taxation system.

jeepcj

jeepcj wrote: »

Please tell me where you are getting quotes for 600 euro for a commercial pick up, i pay 1000 fully comp for my navara and thats the best i can find. full no claims bonus, no points,

Insure my van was the most flexible with the mirroring no claims and was 630 on a commercial 4x4. Axa were around the 680 mark I thinkk. Quote devil came back with a quote in the mid 600’s also if I remember correctly.

Isambard

elperello wrote: »

It's not necessarily cheaper tax.

Take the example of a Berlingo/Partner van the workhorse of small tradesmen.
Commercial Tax €333

Berlingo Multispace (car version with same 1.6 HDI engine).
Private Tax €280

If the small tradesman wants to tax his van privately it will cost him €514 because they are still using the cc rates for vans.

These small tradesmen/sole traders are the type of people we all depend on to get jobs done. It is simply impossible for small operators like this to comply 100% with the current motor taxation system.

514 vs 333 is cheaper tax in my mind. I would have to pay the 514. Thus it's a concession and tax deductible.

elperello

Isambard wrote: »

514 vs 333 is cheaper tax in my mind. I would have to pay the 514. Thus it's a concession and tax deductible.

My point was that the van tax on that model is actually higher than the equivalent car.

Not that you or anyone else should have to pay €514

It's well past time they forgot about the cc based tax rates, maybe in the next changes.

Del2005

elperello wrote: »

It's not necessarily cheaper tax.

Take the example of a Berlingo/Partner van the workhorse of small tradesmen.
Commercial Tax €333

Berlingo Multispace (car version with same 1.6 HDI engine).
Private Tax €280

If the small tradesman wants to tax his van privately it will cost him €514 because they are still using the cc rates for vans.

These small tradesmen/sole traders are the type of people we all depend on to get jobs done. It is simply impossible for small operators like this to comply 100% with the current motor taxation system.

Buy the car and take the seats out, stick up some limo tint and if you want add metal panels for security. Small tradesmen now has cheap tax. Not that difficult.

U_Fig

Del2005 wrote: »

Buy the car and take the seats out, stick up some limo tint and if you want add metal panels for security. Small tradesmen now has cheap tax. Not that difficult.

Then the car is modified and you declare it to insurance and they double your premium. :-/

Tacitus Kilgore

Lamar Millions Farmyard wrote: »

I’d say every single person who has a commercially taxed vehicle uses it for at least some private use.

I wonder does driving the vehicle to the garda station to get the rf111a stamp count as non-commercial use?


Dumbest form I've ever lied to..

the_pen_turner

the problem here is that the op is paye , their job finishs at closing time. unless you could show you were paid overtime etc

if the op wasa self employed or a subcontracter then there would be no finish time. most of us trademen work 60-70 hours a week between billable work and behind the scenes work like paper work and looking at jobs. if i got pulled over and asked about the comercial tax i would tell the guarda that i was coming from a job or colecting something for the day after etc. 90% of the time it would be correct anyway. who would know or prove that it wasnt true.



the system is crazy. you should be able to split the tax and pay a percentage of comercial and private if you want

Del2005

U_Fig wrote: »

Then the car is modified and you declare it to insurance and they double your premium. :-/

On most of them you can spec privacy windows from new. The cars are designed to remove the seats. Unless you have changed the performance of the vehicle they generally don't care about modifications, so a few metal panels will have little impact.

But I like how you are worried about making sure that the small business owner is staying legal, so you agree that they should tax it privately if they use it privately.

Isambard

Del2005 wrote: »

On most of them you can spec privacy windows from new. The cars are designed to remove the seats. Unless you have changed the performance of the vehicle they generally don't care about modifications, so a few metal panels will have little impact.

But I like how you are worried about making sure that the small business owner is staying legal, so you agree that they should tax it privately if they use it privately.

ah but you have to get it through the NCT, a car with the back seats missing and metal plates fitted or not fitted is going to present problems.

Del2005

Isambard wrote: »

ah but you have to get it through the NCT, a car with the back seats missing and metal plates fitted or not fitted is going to present problems.

Do what everyone else who has modified their car, replace the bits you removed and remove the bits you added.
How can a modification no longer present to be a problem?

Isambard

what , you mean apart from invalidating your Insurance when they are present?

elperello

All interesting work arounds to try and make sense of a flawed system.

I have a better plan.

Let's introduce a Motor Tax system that is fair for all.
Let people drive a van privately if they want to without ripping them off through the cc rate tax.
Let people use their commercial tax van to collect a kid from school or go to the shop with out falling foul of the law.
As long as the vehicle is taxed,tested and insured there should be no problem.

In simple terms make a Motor Tax regime to suit how people live and work.

elperello

elperello wrote: »

All interesting work arounds to try and make sense of a flawed system.

I have a better plan.

Let's introduce a Motor Tax system that is fair for all.
Let people drive a van privately if they want to without ripping them off through the cc rate tax.
Let people use their commercial tax van to collect a kid from school or go to the shop with out falling foul of the law.
As long as the vehicle is taxed,tested and insured there should be no problem.

In simple terms make a Motor Tax regime to suit how people live and work.

The fact is that there is no issue at all using your commercial privately so it’s not really a problem anyone faces as they simply don’t care (or in many cases don’t even realise) that technically it’s not allowed. There are one or two posting in this thread that care more about it than almost every commercial driver in the country added up and multiplied by a large number.

elperello

Lamar Millions Farmyard wrote: »

The fact is that there is no issue at all using your commercial privately so it’s not really a problem anyone faces as they simply don’t care (or in many cases don’t even realise) that technically it’s not allowed. There are one or two posting in this thread that care more about it than almost every commercial driver in the country added up and multiplied by a large number.

Of course you are right.

AGS seem to have washed their hands of the matter. Only a multi agency check point is likely to pick up on it.

However the fact remains that ordinary decent people are being put on the wrong side of the law by this flawed system.

the_pen_turner

elperello wrote: »

Of course you are right.

AGS seem to have washed their hands of the matter. Only a multi agency check point is likely to pick up on it.

However the fact remains that ordinary decent people are being put on the wrong side of the law by this flawed system.

this is true. what can you do. buy a private vehicle probably

what happen then if you nip into your local hardware to colect something for a job or go to price a job. you are then using your privatly taxed vehicle for comercial use

Isambard

i know it's not allowed and that was always the case, it never stopped me in my van driving days from using the van for private purposes. The difference is I knew it's not allowed, and many people seem to think it's a right. In my case it was a concession my employer got that I took advantage of.

So I agree a better system is needed, one with a level playing field, where everyone taxing a vehicle pays the same as anyone else for a similar vehicle. Self-employed and business users would still be better off as they could claim it against their tax

Isambard

the_pen_turner wrote: »

this is true. what can you do. buy a private vehicle probably

what happen then if you nip into your local hardware to colect something for a job or go to price a job. you are then using your privatly taxed vehicle for comercial use

which is allowed

elperello

the_pen_turner wrote: »

this is true. what can you do. buy a private vehicle probably

what happen then if you nip into your local hardware to colect something for a job or go to price a job. you are then using your privatly taxed vehicle for comercial use

I know a couple of small operators who are using cars with roof racks to carry ladders and trailers to haul loads etc.
They are using private insured cars for business purposes.

the_pen_turner

elperello wrote: »

I know a couple of small operators who are using cars with roof racks to carry ladders and trailers to haul loads etc.
They are using private insured cars for business purposes.

does that not invalidate the insurance

the_pen_turner

Isambard wrote: »

which is allowed

why bother with comercial then

the_pen_turner

the_pen_turner wrote: »

why bother with comercial then

Because it’s cheaper in most cases especially if it’s 4x4s or larger vans.

Homer

the_pen_turner wrote: »

does that not invalidate the insurance

Yes it specifically states on your policy not for commercial, hire or reward or words to that effect.

Homer

Homer wrote: »

Yes it specifically states on your policy not for commercial, hire or reward or words to that effect.

You can add business use which covers you for use in your own business or in connection with your work if you are paye, costs very little extra. Anyone who drives their private car for work needs to add and a lot of people actually use their car for work.

St1mpMeister

Hi all, thought I'd jump on this thread as I was going to create a new post but people subbed to this thread will probably be better placed to answer my query.

Basically I'm getting thrown by Form RF111A.

Here's the background...

- I run a Ltd company (I'm the sole employee) and wanted to buy a car through the company, but will only be using the car for personal use not related to the business.

- In order to use a car for personal use, the employee needs to pay BIK, but if the car is a commercial vehicle this is reduced to 5% BIK. I decided a car-derived van would be suitable as I only need max of 2 seats (https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-people/benefit-in-kind-for-employers/private-use-of-company-vans/calculating-the-cash-equivalent-of-company-vans.aspx)

- I found a car-derived van that I want (hatchback with no rear seats and panels on rear windows) and put down a deposit on it. The company name will be on the vehicle.

- I went and got an insurance quote under the assumption I will be taxing it as a commercial vehicle. The insurance quote was for a commercial vehicle (though this type of van can also be insured as a private if I choose)

While waiting for the insurance quote forms to arrive, I've been told by the garage that I need to fill in a RF111A form if the vehicle is going to be taxed as a commercial vehicle.


Now here's where I'm confused. The RF111A form says

I declare that vehicle will be used only as a
goods carrying vehicle in the course of my business/trade and will not be used at any
time for social, domestic or pleasure purposes.

but... that's exactly what I will be using it for?


So here's the thing... am I not supposed to tax it as a commercial vehicle... and therefore should the insurance quote be for a private vehicle as well?!

colm_mcm

It’s only a declaration, shur everyone’s at it.

St1mpMeister

colm_mcm wrote: »

It’s only a declaration, shur everyone’s at it.

Did the motor tax office not get the memo?